2018/2019 AMMO LAW THREAD - ask here, not a new thread

[aBrowningfan]

Originally Posted by 900ss

I have searched but was unable to find the answer to my question. If I sell ammunition to someone out of state am I in any way affected by the latest CA ammunition sales laws?

Are you shipping the ammunition you have sold to an out-of-state customer to the customer's out of state address? If yes, then the CA ammunition sales law does not apply.

[BajaJames83]

My coworker failed ammo background last night is there ongoing list he can add his name to.

[Dakie]

Is there any difference in the vendor running a COE check vs. an AFS check?

[Cortelli]

Originally Posted by Dakie

Is there any difference in the vendor running a COE check vs. an AFS check?

There are some technical differences, but maybe not a substantive difference.

With an AFS check, the FFL submits info to DOJ and DOJ checks the AFS database and the Prohibited Persons database.

With a COE check, the same info (plus COE number) is submitted to DOJ and the DOJ checks the validity of the COE.

They both cost $1.

If one had a COE, I'd probably default to recommending a COE check since there would seem to be less chance of a minor mismatch on records -- because a COE issuance or renewal may have been more recent than the last firearm purchased, the COE holder can easily check his own details via CFARs, and because the individual submitted the COE info himself versus an FFL employee who might use a different shorthand for certain things that could cause a mismatch (Avenue vs Ave, etc.)

But if one has a COE, one should also get an FFL03 and bypass the whole background check process.

[joepamjohn]

Can I sell my ammo FTF to a FFL03 holder with a valid COE?

[Cortelli]

Originally Posted by joepamjohn

Can I sell my ammo FTF to a FFL03 holder with a valid COE?

I am a bit rusty, but I believe the answer is "OK if no more than 500 rounds in 30 days."

Even though CA PEN CODE Sec 30312 provides exceptions to sales to FFL03 / COE, there is still Sec 30342.

CA Penal Code Sec. 30342:

(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.

(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

There is no FFL03 / COE exemption for a seller in CA to sell more than 500 rounds in 30 days without an ammo vendor license. Not certain about how this would apply if selling to an out-of-state resident - on the face of it, if you were still a CA resident and selling out of state, you may still be at risk under 30342.

[SpookyWatcher]

Did anyone point out to The Honorable Judge Benitez that the hunter he mentioned would have violated the new ammo law by brining in the case of ammo for the dove hunt?

Right... Isn't it "illegal" to bring ammo across the border now?

Can't wait to read the transcript. Wish I was there.

[Metal God]

No it’s not as long as you’re not a resident of CA .

[SpookyWatcher]

Wait...WT Ever Lasting F? So if I am a resident I can't bring ammo back into CA? But if I am an AZ resident I can come across the border all day long with ammo?

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by SpookyWatcher

Wait...WT Ever Lasting F? So if I am a resident I can't bring ammo back into CA? But if I am an AZ resident I can come across the border all day long with ammo?

Yes (with exceptions), if you obtained it outside of CA... Been that way for a while.

[Friesland]

Can an out-of-state visitor leave their ammo behind when returning to their state?

Originally Posted by SpookyWatcher

Wait...WT Ever Lasting F? So if I am a resident I can't bring ammo back into CA? But if I am an AZ resident I can come across the border all day long with ammo?

Thanks EM2

[EM2]

Originally Posted by Friesland

Can an out-of-state visitor leave there ammo behind when returning to there state?

Sure, they can leave THEIR ammo behind, forgetfullness is not a crime.

[Whacked]

I was denied because I chose to have a PO Box on my REAL ID.

I had to provide 2 proof of street address for the REAL ID.
Street box is shared and not secured, so I never use it.

On CRPA website, I did the questionnaire but I wanted to explain further. the @michellawyer.com address at the end is invalid

Ideas what to do next?

[B-C]

Add an "s"to the end

@michellawyers.com

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Whacked]

cut/paste

ammoquestionnaire@michellawyers.com.

didn't work

[Markinsac]

I did my first purchase under the new rules this evening. Takes about 15-20 minutes.

1 - Check for eligibility
2 - select ammunition
3 - clerk has to enter EACH type and caliber (and there is even a place for the cost per round that they have to enter manually!)
4 - depending on the ammunition, they have to validate from a drop down to match the SPECIFIC markings on each box.
5 - ad nauseum - I'll let you figure the rest out.

Here is a link to the purchase process:

https://www.oag.ca.gov/sites/all/fil...user-guide.pdf

[pacrat]

Reposting from this thread in the "AMMO FOR SALE FORUM" got no response there. Guessing it was wrong place.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2#post23379102

From Kes's OP

Quote:
30312.

(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise. If the ammunition vendor cannot legally deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, the vendor shall forthwith return the ammunition to the seller. The ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser an administrative fee to process the transaction, in an amount to be set by the Department of Justice, in addition to any applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to the provisions of this title.

Did the DOJ bureau weenies, ever get off their collective PubSec Union duffs and follow through with this requirement?

[1]....Was a standardized fee set?

[2]....What are other "applicable fees" and how much are they?

[3]....Since DOJ now requires a BGC for ammo PPTs...... Are FFL's required to do them just like firearm PPTs?

Any and all help appreciated. Thank You

[Standard]

For an ammo PPT, i'm having trouble finding an FFL who will actually do the transfer. I sold 500 rounds last month, and the only FFL I could find who would do the transfer made it clear they wouldn't do it again. I want to sell 500 more rounds to the same guy (who obviously passed the BG check), we both have CCWs, I have a C&R...Do I really have to beg another shop to do the transfer, or can I just transfer it FTF?

[moisesanguiano]

So I just did my first post july 1st ammo purchase, and I'm not sure if I got screwed by walmart. Went like this:
Handed over my DL, plus birth cert and car reg. (No real id yet, and old address on DL)
Ran background. Passed with flying colors.
Went and picked out my ammo. Got some 9mm, 223, 22, and 12ga.
Here's where stuff doesn't sound right. After I picked out my ammo, the cashier filled out a dros form for each caliber, and had me sign each one. She then rang up each caliber as a separate transaction, and I had to pay the $1 fee FOUR TIMES! I brought it to her attention, and she said that's the way it's done, since there was a dros form for each. Not wanting to argue, and cause I was in a hurry, I bit the bullet (ha), paid and left. Does this sound right?? It was my understanding that it was a single $1 fee for the check, then you could buy as much as you want, regardless of caliber.

[CaliTrav]

I have not bought ammo since the new ammo law went into effect. However, from everything I have read you are correct and you got screwed. I have read multiple times and places that you have to do a dros for each ammo caliber but you only pay the $1 background fee once even when buying multiple calibers at the same time.

If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me but I believe it is like you thought as well.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by moisesanguiano

So I just did my first post july 1st ammo purchase, and I'm not sure if I got screwed by walmart. Went like this:
Handed over my DL, plus birth cert and car reg. (No real id yet, and old address on DL)
Ran background. Passed with flying colors.
Went and picked out my ammo. Got some 9mm, 223, 22, and 12ga.
Here's where stuff doesn't sound right. After I picked out my ammo, the cashier filled out a dros form for each caliber, and had me sign each one. She then rang up each caliber as a separate transaction, and I had to pay the $1 fee FOUR TIMES! I brought it to her attention, and she said that's the way it's done, since there was a dros form for each. Not wanting to argue, and cause I was in a hurry, I bit the bullet (ha), paid and left. Does this sound right?? It was my understanding that it was a single $1 fee for the check, then you could buy as much as you want, regardless of caliber.

You got screwed. The $1 fee is to establish an individual’s authorization to purchase. The authorization must be approved prior to the transfer/sale. PEN 30370

30370. (a) Commencing July 1, 2019, the department shall electronically approve the purchase or transfer of ammunition through a vendor, as defined in Section 16151, except as otherwise specified. This approval shall occur at the time of purchase or transfer, prior to the purchaser or transferee taking possession of the ammunition.

Once authorized, you can buy as much as you want in whatever caliber you want.

DOJ FAQ #10.

#10. What are the fees associated with each of the ammunition eligibility checks?
Certificate of Eligibility Verification Check - $1
Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check - $1
Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check - $19

(Pen. Code §, 30370, Cal. Code of Reg., tit. 11, §§ 4302, 4303, 4305.

DOJ FAQ #23.

#23. Is there a limit on how much ammunition I can purchase during an ammunition transaction?
No. There is nothing in statute or regulations that limit the amount of ammunition that can be purchased.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Reposting from this thread in the "AMMO FOR SALE FORUM" got no response there. Guessing it was wrong place.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2#post23379102

Did the DOJ bureau weenies, ever get off their collective PubSec Union duffs and follow through with this requirement?

[1]....Was a standardized fee set?

PEN 30370(e).

30370(e) The department shall recover the reasonable cost of regulatory and enforcement activities related to this article by charging ammunition purchasers and transferees a per transaction fee not to exceed one dollar ($1), provided, however, that the fee may be increased at a rate not to exceed any increases in the California Consumer Price Index as compiled and reported by the Department of Industrial Relations, not to exceed the reasonable regulatory and enforcement costs.

and,

11 CCR § 4302. Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check (AFS Match).

(b) As authorized by Penal Code section 30370, subdivision (e), the fee for a Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check is $1.00.

PEN 30370(c)

30370(c). The department shall develop a procedure in which a person who is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing ammunition may be approved for a single ammunition transaction or purchase. The department shall recover the cost of processing and regulatory and enforcement activities related to this section by charging the ammunition transaction or purchase applicant a fee not to exceed the fee charged for the department’s Dealers’ Record of Sale (DROS) process, as described in Section 28225 and not to exceed the department’s reasonable costs.

and,

11 CCR § 4303. Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check (Single Transaction or Purchase).

(b) As authorized by Penal Code section 30370, subdivision (c), the fee for a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check is $19.00.

//////

Originally Posted by pacrat

[2]....What are other "applicable fees" and how much are they?

DOJ FAQ #10.

What are the fees associated with each of the ammunition eligibility checks?
Certificate of Eligibility Verification Check - $1
Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check - $1
Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check - $19

(Pen. Code §, 30370, Cal. Code of Reg., tit. 11, §§ 4302, 4303, 4305.)

and,

11 CCR § 4263. Vendor Fee for Processing a Private Party (Non-Vendor) Ammunition Sale.

In addition to any applicable Department of Justice fee, an ammunition vendor may charge the purchaser a fee(s) for processing the sale of ammunition between two private parties as follows:
(a) If the purchaser will be present for immediate delivery of the ammunition, the fee shall not exceed five dollars ($5).

/////

Originally Posted by pacrat

[3]....Since DOJ now requires a BGC for ammo PPTs...... Are FFL's required to do them just like firearm PPTs?

More like they need to be processing them just like in-house ammo purchases.

PEN 30312.

30312.
(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.
(2) When neither party to an ammunition sale is a licensed ammunition vendor, the seller shall deliver the ammunition to a vendor to process the transaction. The ammunition vendor shall promptly and properly deliver the ammunition to the purchaser, if the sale is not prohibited, as if the ammunition were the vendor’s own merchandise.

But, firearm PPTs had to be clarified by the AG.

Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.

/////////

Originally Posted by pacrat

Any and all help appreciated. Thank You

Enjoy.

[warbird]

Good Lord, I remember when 22's cost thirty-nine cents for a box of fifty or two for a penny bulk ammo and none of this garbage. If you bought one box like i did back then what would it cost you now?

[pacrat]

For a very thorough yet concise explanation. Complete with statutes.

I have read several instances like this one from member "Standard"

For an ammo PPT, i'm having trouble finding an FFL who will actually do the transfer. I sold 500 rounds last month, and the only FFL I could find who would do the transfer made it clear they wouldn't do it again. I want to sell 500 more rounds to the same guy (who obviously passed the BG check), we both have CCWs, I have a C&R...Do I really have to beg another shop to do the transfer, or can I just transfer it FTF?

So according to PC 30312. Licensed ammo vendors who refuse to do PPTs of ammo are not in compliance with state law.


Seems to be a lot of that "non compliance by FFLs" happening in this state. In relation to LOCKS,..... UNDETERMINED RELEASE, and now...... AMMO TRANSFERS.

[paco ramirez]

I'm an 07FFL/02SOT in New Mexico. Obviously I could fly into CA with whatever the airline will let me.

So if I'm only in CA for ten days and need to buy ammo in CA, then how would I be able to buy ammo in CA if it can take upward of ten days just to get allowed to buy the ammo in the first place?

Or do I get some exemption for being an FFL from 30312, c, 3 or 30312, c, 5? Or from 30352, e, 6?

How do I prove the exemption?

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by paco ramirez

I'm an 07FFL/02SOT in New Mexico. Obviously I could fly into CA with whatever the airline will let me.

So if I'm only in CA for ten days and need to buy ammo in CA, then how would I be able to buy ammo in CA if it can take upward of ten days just to get allowed to buy the ammo in the first place?

Or do I get some exemption for being an FFL from 30312, c, 3 or 30312, c, 5? Or from 30352, e, 6?

How do I prove the exemption?

11 CCR § 4306. Ammunition Purchases or Transfers for Exempted Individuals.

(a) The following types of identification will properly identify an individual who is exempt pursuant to Penal Code section 30352, subdivision (e), from Department approval to purchase or transfer ammunition.[...]
(5) A manufacturer of firearms shall present a valid Type 07 Federal Firearms License.

Of course, this is California, and we seem to have an inability for FFLs/Ammo Vendors to be able to understand black letter language in statute and reg.

Good luck..enjoy your visit.

[paco ramirez]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

11 CCR § 4306. Ammunition Purchases or Transfers for Exempted Individuals.
Of course, this is California, and we seem to have an inability for FFLs/Ammo Vendors to be able to understand black letter language in statute and reg.

Good luck..enjoy your visit.

Perfect, thanks.

I'm from Santa Rosa. I only moved away five years ago coming up in November but it's been extremely difficult to keep up with the infringements the CA government keeps imposing there over the last few years.

[rhinodrvr]

Any word on how military members buy ammo? We don’t have a California ID to present. Is my CAC Card, and a copy of PCS Orders sufficient to buy ammunition here in the PRK?

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by rhinodrvr

Any word on how military members buy ammo? We don’t have a California ID to present. Is my CAC Card, and a copy of PCS Orders sufficient to buy ammunition here in the PRK?

LAX AMMO has posted the following:

Q: What if I am in the Military and have a Department of Defense (DOD) number?

A: We spoke with the CA DOJ on 7-11-19, and a representative informed us that we can perform a Standard Eligibility check ($1) with your Military ID using your DOD number and a California residential address at which you have a firearm registered (you can provide this address to us verbally). If you have a Military ID, have a CA address, but DO NOT have a firearm registered in California, you can opt for the Basic Eligibility Check ($19 and up to 10 days to process) by giving us your DOD number and verbally providing your CA address.

Q: What if I have a CA ID with "Federal Limits Apply" but I also have an Active Military ID and a firearm registered in CA?

A: We spoke with the CA DOJ on 7-11-19, and a representative informed us that we can run a Standard Eligibility Check ($1) with your DOD# and a CA address you verbally provide without collecting additional proof of residency. However, if you want to use your CA DL instead of your military ID, and have "Federal Limits Apply" on your license, you will need to provide additional proof of residency (i.e. Birth Certificate or Passport). *More info about "Federal Limits Apply" can be viewed in another section of this Q&A.

They may/may not be correct, and other vendors might not agree. However, it seems probable that you have to have a gun in the Registry to avoid the $19 on-going fee.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

However, it seems probable that you have to have a gun in the Registry to avoid the $19 on-going fee.

... And, since active duty military are not required to register any guns they may bring to CA, only buying one here, or using the Voluntary Registration process (or any of the other owner-initiated transfers), is going to get a gun in the AFS database.

[bhp1410]

Ok.. so just to be crystal clear. A 03C&R + COE can buy as many rounds as they want from private parties in CA without using an ammo vendor. Correct?

If the seller (non ammo vendor.. civilian) were to hypothetically sell more than 500 at a time (or per month) to the C&R/COE in one transaction, they are committing the ‘crime’ and not the C&R/COE holder, right? Is there any legal risk to the exempt purchaser for purchasing more than 500 or otherwise participating in the sale of more than 500 even though they are exempt?


I am not advocating for or otherwise condoning the breaking of any ammunition law or statute.

[mrdd]

Originally Posted by bhp1410

Ok.. so just to be crystal clear. A 03C&R + COE can buy as many rounds as they want from private parties in CA without using an ammo vendor. Correct?

The law in question is:

PC 30342.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2018, a valid ammunition vendor license shall be required for any person, firm, corporation, or other business enterprise to sell more than 500 rounds of ammunition in any 30-day period.

Note that it applies to the vendor, not the buyer. And, that it applies to how much they can sell in total in any 30 day period.

However, that does not mean that conspiracy could not be charged and proven against the buyer.

[kouye]

I'm selling a bunch of 7.62x54R ammo locally and want to make sure that I understand the laws. I have a C&R and COE, but I'm not sure that matters in these transactions. I tried reading this whole thread and I THINK it confirms what I state below.

If the buyer has a C&R and COE, I can sell to them face to face w/o going to a dealer/FFL for transfer.

If the buyer does not have a C&R and COE, transfers must go through a dealer/FFL.

In either case, I cannot sell more than 500 rounds per 30 days if I don't have an ammo. vendor's license.

Are all of the above statements true?

[lone shooter]

Decided I want to buy some 12ga 00 buckshot in bulk online. Anyone recommend a vendor that will receive my ammo and not rake me over the coals in fees? I'm in the Cerritos area btw.

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by lone shooter

Decided I want to buy some 12ga 00 buckshot in bulk online. Anyone recommend a vendor that will receive my ammo and not rake me over the coals in fees? I'm in the Cerritos area btw.

Many vendors have a list of FFL they will ship to so you might want to check with them.

[lone shooter]

^ Thanks.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by lone shooter

Decided I want to buy some 12ga 00 buckshot in bulk online. Anyone recommend a vendor that will receive my ammo and not rake me over the coals in fees? I'm in the Cerritos area btw.

We don’t know what level is “bulk” to you, we don’t know what the “market” in your area charges and we don’t know at what price-point (and quantity) you’d begin to feel “raked”. Ammo Bros’ charge of $50 for 5k rounds may seem reasonable, but it’s probably not scalable, so they’ll likely charge the same $50 for 50 rounds.

Because of that, I’d suggest you try your local sources first so you can tell them what’s coming in. If it isn’t something rare, they may be able to compete with in-store stock to support a local customer.

(Also remember, if anything delays you in picking up the order, they can charge separate storage fees.)

[lone shooter]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

We don’t know what level is “bulk” to you, we don’t know what the “market” in your area charges and we don’t know at what price-point (and quantity) you’d begin to feel “raked”. Ammo Bros’ charge of $50 for 5k rounds may seem reasonable, but it’s probably not scalable, so they’ll likely charge the same $50 for 50 rounds.

Because of that, I’d suggest you try your local sources first so you can tell them what’s coming in. If it isn’t something rare, they may be able to compete with in-store stock to support a local customer.

(Also remember, if anything delays you in picking up the order, they can charge separate storage fees.)

I was thinking a case or two (250/case) for a total value of about $240 dollars (for 2 cases). If that helps.

And I'm not one to wait. If I get notice that my firearm/ammo is ready for pickup, rest assured I'm there within 24 hrs.

[adampetrasek]

Originally Posted by lone shooter

Decided I want to buy some 12ga 00 buckshot in bulk online. Anyone recommend a vendor that will receive my ammo and not rake me over the coals in fees? I'm in the Cerritos area btw.

I'd call up Byron at Whitten Sales.
(714) 732-8973
He is on the edge of Cypress and Garden Grove. Valley View and 22/405.
I think he said he has a $25 fee for receiving ammo. Probably collects tax too if your invoice doesn't show you've already paid tax. But he might also be able to get you a good deal from his vendors = no extra fee.
He's officially open only on tuesday evenings, but responds quickly to his messages, and you can make an appointment on other days.

[lone shooter]

Looks like Turner's is going to save the day. See tomorrow's ad.