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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-24-2019, 3:15 PM
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Default NRA Sues L.A. over First Amendment Violations

Chuck just filed a case challenging the disclosure requirement for business that conduct with L.A. regarding whether they are NRA.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...Complaint-.pdf
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Chuck just filed a case challenging the disclosure requirement for business that conduct with L.A. regarding whether they are NRA.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...Complaint-.pdf

BDT Bout Damn Time!

I've for years, been of the opinion that NRA should adopt the "Scientology" practice of suing the crap out of anybody that pulls this crap.

Also!

Crooked FAKE NEWS and LEFTIST POLITICOs who make slanderous and specious public claims regarding NRA and its Members.

GO GET'M CHUCK!!!
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:44 PM
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BDT Bout Damn Time!

I've for years, been of the opinion that NRA should adopt the "Scientology" practice of suing the crap out of anybody that pulls this crap.

Also!

Crooked FAKE NEWS and LEFTIST POLITICOs who make slanderous and specious public claims regarding NRA and its Members.

GO GET'M CHUCK!!!
Its a function of money (membership) and having the right case and courts to end up in. You have to admit most gun owners are NON-NRA members
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Old 04-24-2019, 4:48 PM
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Its a function of money (membership) and having the right case and courts to end up in. You have to admit most gun owners are NON-NRA members
Yeah, I know, just wishing that of the 100 million gun owners, more than 5% also had NRA cards.

IMHO, that makes 95 million gun owners "2A Welfare Cases". Sitting on their "assets", and letting others fight for their 2A right.
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Old 04-24-2019, 6:46 PM
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Seriously only 5%?
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Old 04-24-2019, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Chuck just filed a case challenging the disclosure requirement for business that conduct with L.A. regarding whether they are NRA.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...Complaint-.pdf
There is another Thread with an article about this:

NRA vs LA
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...5#post22934335

Direct link to article:
https://abc7.com/politics/nra-sues-l...e-law/5268803/


I am So Tired of the Lying Left and its Endless Supply of Malfeasance.

At this moment in time, if you support the Left, your either Incredibly
Gullible, Incredibly Stupid, or just plain Evil.

And quite possibly All of the Above....

Examples:











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Old 04-24-2019, 8:26 PM
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Seriously only 5%?
Sadly, Yes, just 5%

Do the math.

100 million US gun owners................5 million NRA members.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:43 PM
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Old 04-25-2019, 7:21 AM
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Yeah, I know, just wishing that of the 100 million gun owners, more than 5% also had NRA cards.

IMHO, that makes 95 million gun owners "2A Welfare Cases". Sitting on their "assets", and letting others fight for their 2A right.
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Originally Posted by johnk518 View Post
Seriously only 5%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Sadly, Yes, just 5%

Do the math.

100 million US gun owners................5 million NRA members.
True and sad state of affairs. Unfortunately gun owners in free states do not feel as compelled to step up and take a stand. Even with all the draconian gun laws on the books and being proposed, many gun owners in California are not NRA members and many here in CalGuns are not as well. I personally shun and shame them when I come across them at public ranges and IDPA / USPSA matches. As far as I am concerned the gun community should shut those morons out. They are nothing but free-riders on the backs of a very few.
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Old 04-25-2019, 7:57 AM
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True and sad state of affairs. Unfortunately gun owners in free states do not feel as compelled to step up and take a stand. Even with all the draconian gun laws on the books and being proposed, many gun owners in California are not NRA members and many here in CalGuns are not as well. I personally shun and shame them when I come across them at public ranges and IDPA / USPSA matches. As far as I am concerned the gun community should shut those morons out. They are nothing but free-riders on the backs of a very few.
It should be a requirement to join any gun organization, club, range, etc. I wonder how many drivers there are without AAA membership? Wake up people, your lack of participation is why our rights are being taken away. Why would you willingly not help those, that are trying to help you?
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Old 04-25-2019, 8:11 AM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Yeah, I know, just wishing that of the 100 million gun owners, more than 5% also had NRA cards.

IMHO, that makes 95 million gun owners "2A Welfare Cases". Sitting on their "assets", and letting others fight for their 2A right.
you should factor in also members of GOA, SAF, CRPA, etc.

not like the NRA is the only gun rights organization out there.

Sure they may be the oldest, but it isn't like they started to fight for gun rights until the 70s after they helped put in gun control laws.
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
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Preppers canceled my order this afternoon because I called them a disgrace... Not ordering from those clowns again.
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Truthfully, we cancelled your order because of your lack of civility and your threats ... What is a problem is when you threaten my customer service team and make demands instead of being civil. Plain and simple just don't be an a**hole (where you told us to shove it).
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Old 04-25-2019, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by johnk518 View Post
It should be a requirement to join any gun organization, club, range, etc. I wonder how many drivers there are without AAA membership? Wake up people, your lack of participation is why our rights are being taken away. Why would you willingly not help those, that are trying to help you?


NRA membership is a requirement to join my private gun club as a full member. Several years ago, I petitioned the board of directors to require NRA membership of all the "limited members" and was successful in that endeavor. I am in the process of preparing a proposal to the Board of Directors to create a two tier pricing scheme for all of the matches sponsored by / at the club that would increase the match fees for nonmembers but offer discounts to those with proof of NRA membership.
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Old 04-25-2019, 8:28 AM
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you should factor in also members of GOA, SAF, CRPA, etc.

not like the NRA is the only gun rights organization out there.

Sure they may be the oldest, but it isn't like they started to fight for gun rights until the 70s after they helped put in gun control laws.
1) The NRA is still THE most effective and feared pro gun organization by the anti's
2) It is a catch 22 situation...gun owners want the NRA to be more effective before they join but the NRA cant be more effective without more members...All the people joining after freedom week is proof of this phenomenon.
3) We should all be members of several pro gun organizations. I am a life member of the NRA, SAC and a annual member of the CRPA.
4) We should all be registered Republican and voting republican. The DEMOCRATS are the enemy and we need to keep them out of office. Many will complain about republican too but the republicans are not the one inventing and writing all the anti gun legislation, regardless of how they might vote. Voting for third party candidates, while great protest action, effectively is like a vote for the democrats in our two party system.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
you should factor in also members of GOA, SAF, CRPA, etc.

not like the NRA is the only gun rights organization out there.

Sure they may be the oldest, but it isn't like they started to fight for gun rights until the 70s after they helped put in gun control laws.


Man, YOU really need to brush up on your history..........prior to Neal Knox's bloodletting at the NRA there was no/nada/zero anyone playing the activist game.............that the NRA has at times gone off track is indisputable, that it also has the ONLY/SINGULAR voice that the politico's heed is also indisputable...........that multi million membership scares the fecal matter out of politicians..........it's when they drop that ball of advocacy that things go to fecal in a heartbeat.........................as in my state with the ossified ex-NRA pres. accorded credibility by my state's legislature..........perhaps deservedly i
n years gone by but damned sure not now. And that's what needs correcting.........would that we had another Knox that'd carry that ball!!


I don't have access to the other org's stat's, but the very lack of press attacks alone indicates they are ALL secondary runners.......if afforded even that much credibility!.............I know for a fact they did little more in my state than Ms Hammer!!!

Last edited by dogrunner; 04-25-2019 at 12:02 PM..
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Old 04-25-2019, 1:37 PM
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I don't have access to the other org's stat's, but the very lack of press attacks alone indicates they are ALL secondary runners.......if afforded even that much credibility!.............I know for a fact they did little more in my state than Ms Hammer!!!
CRPA is the NRA surrogate / Ca state association and they work hand in hand together as they did in the court win giving us "Freedom week" with regard to std capacity mags.

Second Amendment Foundation brings a lot of litigation against state and mostly local anti gun laws / policies. They to good work too but the NRA / CRPA should get priority in anyone support.
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Old 04-25-2019, 2:25 PM
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Let see how fast ACLU will jump in to help defend First Amendment. I won't hold my breath though.
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Old 04-25-2019, 3:24 PM
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Let see how fast ACLU will jump in to help defend First Amendment. I won't hold my breath though.

Hell as already Frozen Over Once before:


The ACLU Defends the NRA, to the
Chagrin of Some in the ACLU

National Review. August 28, 2018
https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...clu-attorneys/
Quote:
The ACLU filed an amicus brief in support of the National Rifle Association’s
lawsuit against New York regulators and governor Andrew Cuomo.
New York has sent letters offering “guidance” to financial institutions that
do business with gun-advocacy groups, and it has imposed millions of
dollars in fines on insurance companies retained by the NRA. The NRA
claims — and the ACLU agrees — that this is unconstitutional: “In the
ACLU’s view, targeting a nonprofit advocacy group and seeking to deny
it financial services because it promotes a lawful activity (the use of guns)
violates the First Amendment,” writes ACLU legal director David Cole.

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Old 04-25-2019, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by johnk518 View Post
It should be a requirement to join any gun organization, club, range, etc. I wonder how many drivers there are without AAA membership? Wake up people, your lack of participation is why our rights are being taken away. Why would you willingly not help those, that are trying to help you?
Not a requirement but an incentive. Every person who buys a gun for the first time automatically becomes a member of the NRA. Twenty five dollars is taken off the retail price of whatever gun you purchased. The membership is good for one year, however if you choose to buy another gun after your membership expires, you will get a renewal.

There is absolutely no reason why retail outlets should have an issue with this AS WELL AS ANY CONSUMER. Since you are required to give your info during a DROS, use that same info for your membership. A no brainer IMO.
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Old 04-25-2019, 5:20 PM
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Not a requirement but an incentive. Every person who buys a gun for the first time automatically becomes a member of the NRA. Twenty five dollars is taken off the retail price of whatever gun you purchased. The membership is good for one year, however if you choose to buy another gun after your membership expires, you will get a renewal.

There is absolutely no reason why retail outlets should have an issue with this AS WELL AS ANY CONSUMER. Since you are required to give your info during a DROS, use that same info for your membership. A no brainer IMO.
Gun stores make maybe 10-15% on a gun sale, that's around $50-60 per sale and you want to make the retailer give half of it? What would you think if I told you to give me 1/2 your income?

Besides, membership has to be voluntary or you'll run into legal issues of forced membership dues - unions have just been neutered over forced dues.
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Old 04-25-2019, 6:57 PM
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Not a requirement but an incentive. Every person who buys a gun for the first time automatically becomes a member of the NRA. Twenty five dollars is taken off the retail price of whatever gun you purchased. The membership is good for one year, however if you choose to buy another gun after your membership expires, you will get a renewal.

There is absolutely no reason why retail outlets should have an issue with this AS WELL AS ANY CONSUMER. Since you are required to give your info during a DROS, use that same info for your membership. A no brainer IMO.
I am a member of the NRA . . .

. . . but no way and no how would I support something that automatically enrolls in an advocacy organization a consumer making a normal purchase. If it is truly voluntary, and someone can make the economics work, sure. (Wasn't clear to me from your post, since says not required but auto becomes a member).
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Old 04-26-2019, 6:37 AM
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Gun stores make maybe 10-15% on a gun sale, that's around $50-60 per sale and you want to make the retailer give half of it? What would you think if I told you to give me 1/2 your income?

Besides, membership has to be voluntary or you'll run into legal issues of forced membership dues - unions have just been neutered over forced dues.
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I am a member of the NRA . . .

. . . but no way and no how would I support something that automatically enrolls in an advocacy organization a consumer making a normal purchase. If it is truly voluntary, and someone can make the economics work, sure. (Wasn't clear to me from your post, since says not required but auto becomes a member).
7 years ago Turners had a similar offer. They offered one free year membership with the purchase of a firearm. And no, you wouldn't be required to sign up.
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Old 04-26-2019, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
Not a requirement but an incentive. Every person who buys a gun for the first time automatically becomes a member of the NRA. Twenty five dollars is taken off the retail price of whatever gun you purchased. The membership is good for one year, however if you choose to buy another gun after your membership expires, you will get a renewal.

There is absolutely no reason why retail outlets should have an issue with this AS WELL AS ANY CONSUMER. Since you are required to give your info during a DROS, use that same info for your membership. A no brainer IMO.
Gun buyers would have the choice to "opt in" to NRA membership. If they choose to "opt out" then the money would be donated to NRA-ILA jointly in the name of the retailer and the manufacturer.

The gun manufacturers should be sharing 50/50 in the cost of membership and the NRA should be offering a discounted membership given the vast number of new members this scheme would create.
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Old 04-26-2019, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
Not a requirement but an incentive. Every person who buys a gun for the first time automatically becomes a member of the NRA. Twenty five dollars is taken off the retail price of whatever gun you purchased. The membership is good for one year, however if you choose to buy another gun after your membership expires, you will get a renewal.

There is absolutely no reason why retail outlets should have an issue with this AS WELL AS ANY CONSUMER. Since you are required to give your info during a DROS, use that same info for your membership. A no brainer IMO.
I think its ridiculous to expect gun shops to do that. Completely economically unviable.

It is a GREAT idea, however, for the NRA to implement on their own. Require payment information for a recurring subscription, but give the first year free upon purchase of a gun. Once per person. Giving away a year of free membership to someone that was never going to get a membership on their own costs you almost nothing, other than the extra printing and mailing costs for whatever material is distributed. In the digital era, however, the free membership could be a tier that minimizes any such costs.

Anyone with a lick of business sense can see how effective such a policy would be in expanding their "market penetration" so to speak. With where they sit right now I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect their persistent memberships to double or or triple over the next ten years.

If the NRA won't do it, somebody else should. With the right business model an upcoming organization could threaten to make the NRA a relic of the past, in a good way.

Last edited by alowercaseq; 04-26-2019 at 5:24 PM.. Reason: avoid double post
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Old 04-26-2019, 5:38 PM
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When in doubt sue the bastisds...

The NRA should turn about on the left wing nuts and use the courts to start getting justice. The NRA should stop being the whipping boy...
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:57 PM
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When in doubt sue the bastisds...

The NRA should turn about on the left wing nuts and use the courts to start getting justice. The NRA should stop being the whipping boy...
What do you think they have been doing? The problem is that you need to pick and choose carefully which cases you take to which courts to MAKE SURE YOU WIN!

Loosing gun rights cases in higher courts would create just the judicial precedent we DO NOT WANT!
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Old 04-29-2019, 5:40 PM
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I think its ridiculous to expect gun shops to do that. Completely economically unviable.

It is a GREAT idea, however, for the NRA to implement on their own. Require payment information for a recurring subscription, but give the first year free upon purchase of a gun. Once per person. Giving away a year of free membership to someone that was never going to get a membership on their own costs you almost nothing, other than the extra printing and mailing costs for whatever material is distributed. In the digital era, however, the free membership could be a tier that minimizes any such costs.

Anyone with a lick of business sense can see how effective such a policy would be in expanding their "market penetration" so to speak. With where they sit right now I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect their persistent memberships to double or or triple over the next ten years.

If the NRA won't do it, somebody else should. With the right business model an upcoming organization could threaten to make the NRA a relic of the past, in a good way.
Why not both NRA and the vendors? That's less than 15 dollars per party (NRA and LGS) for the first year. If NRA wants to pick up the tab including administrative fees, even better. It's in their better interest for membership growth.
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Old 08-12-2019, 4:14 PM
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Judge Rejects L.A. Request to Toss NRA Suit Over Disclosure Law

A federal judge in Los Angeles rejected the city’s request to throw out a National Rifle Association lawsuit challenging a new law that requires contractors to disclose all business ties to the organization.

The NRA says the law violates its First Amendment rights to free speech and association by trying to freeze out the group’s corporate supporters.

U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson rejected the city’s argument that contractors’ involvement with the NRA isn’t expressive.

“That is rejected,” he said at a hearing Monday. “It is expressive, so there is a First Amendment issue.”

The judge is still considering an NRA request for an order blocking the ordinance while it pursues its lawsuit to nullify it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...disclosure-law

Last edited by FirearmFino; 08-12-2019 at 5:34 PM.. Reason: Forgot to include link
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2019, 5:51 PM
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Some folks seem pretty willing to spend other peoples money.

Don't we hate that?
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Old 08-12-2019, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirearmFino View Post
Judge Rejects L.A. Request to Toss NRA Suit Over Disclosure Law

A federal judge in Los Angeles rejected the city’s request to throw out a National Rifle Association lawsuit challenging a new law that requires contractors to disclose all business ties to the organization.

The NRA says the law violates its First Amendment rights to free speech and association by trying to freeze out the group’s corporate supporters.

U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson rejected the city’s argument that contractors’ involvement with the NRA isn’t expressive.

“That is rejected,” he said at a hearing Monday. “It is expressive, so there is a First Amendment issue.”

The judge is still considering an NRA request for an order blocking the ordinance while it pursues its lawsuit to nullify it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...disclosure-law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Victor_Wilson

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Wilson was nominated by President Ronald Reagan on September 9, 1985, to the United States District Court for the Central District of California, to a new seat created by 98 Stat. 333. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on October 16, 1985, and received his commission on October 17, 1985.
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Old 08-12-2019, 7:37 PM
ghostwong ghostwong is offline
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Amen!
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
BDT Bout Damn Time!

I've for years, been of the opinion that NRA should adopt the "Scientology" practice of suing the crap out of anybody that pulls this crap.

Also!

Crooked FAKE NEWS and LEFTIST POLITICOs who make slanderous and specious public claims regarding NRA and its Members.

GO GET'M CHUCK!!!
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Old 09-22-2019, 2:22 PM
itr1275 itr1275 is offline
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Sounds like a mirror of the SF law.

Go get em. This is not only bad for NRA members but truly an on the freedom of speech. It's no difference than asking employees what church the attend.
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  #32  
Old 09-22-2019, 2:28 PM
Jwalt Jwalt is offline
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Is not just speech, it's also free association and it's a damned bill of attainder.
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Old 12-08-2019, 6:50 PM
Jacknife Jacknife is offline
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How about just some literature regarding the NRA and what they do to protect gun owners rights . If you send a copy of your purchase the NRA will knock X percentage off your first year subscription . The gun store could just run off a bunch of copies and include them with the purchase.
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Old 12-09-2019, 7:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Sadly, Yes, just 5%

Do the math.

100 million US gun owners................5 million NRA members.
Yes, it's sad but true. It also falls in inline with the apathy toward voting.

Thordo
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Old 12-09-2019, 7:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
Is not just speech, it's also free association and it's a damned bill of attainder.
Don't forget about the violation of the interstate commerce clause.

Thordo
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Old 12-09-2019, 7:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
Gun stores make maybe 10-15% on a gun sale, that's around $50-60 per sale and you want to make the retailer give half of it? What would you think if I told you to give me 1/2 your income?

Besides, membership has to be voluntary or you'll run into legal issues of forced membership dues - unions have just been neutered over forced dues.
Agreed. To FORCE someone to join is no different than the very violations we're fighting.

Dealers are already being squeezed hard and should not have to take on the extra burden. However!!

There is an incentive for the NRA and firearms manufacturers to include a "join the NRA" insert with their guns. There are very few that do. A good quality insert only costs about 6 cents. Even if it only produces 1 new membership in 100, the cost to the OEM is only $6 vs a $25, $50, $100, or $500 life membership.

Actually, I thank you for lighting a fire under my arse. I'm gonna contact Sam Peredes at CRPA right now and put together a flier for our shipments!!

Thordo
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Old 12-11-2019, 4:46 PM
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This Court heard oral argument on Defendants’ motion to dismiss on August 12, 2019. Dkt. 29. At the hearing, the Court orally denied the motion to dismiss. Dkt. 33. This Order supersedes that denial. Defendants’ motion to dismiss is DENIED in part and GRANTED in part. Oral argument on Plaintiffs’ motion for preliminary injunction was noticed by this Court for September 9, 2019, but the Court vacated the hearing and took the matter under submission. Dkt. 32. For the reasons stated below, the preliminary injunction is GRANTED.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...44044.34.0.pdf
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  #38  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:12 AM
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In case nobody understood FirearmFino's post, it means we won: https://www.foxnews.com/us/judge-blo...close-nra-ties
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:29 AM
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Congrats! After hearing all our lives about how evil Joe McCarthy was then watch the City of LA and others upstage McCarthy is mind boggling.
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Old 12-12-2019, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
In case nobody understood FirearmFino's post, it means we won: https://www.foxnews.com/us/judge-blo...close-nra-ties
Nice job guys, thanks for the fight.
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