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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 11-18-2023, 9:05 AM
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What device would you recommend to acquire to measure this?
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  #42  
Old 11-18-2023, 11:04 AM
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Reading that Bellm article - I see this:

In fact, when it comes to the TC and NEF Handi-Rifle type break open guns, the best thing to do with headspace gauges is toss'em in the trash.

They are meaningless, and misleading at best. A "gauge" means nothing to you at all when you can take the measurements yourself and KNOW exactly what the headspace is.

So don't go waste money on gauges. You don't need them, and you don't want them. After you have worked with our Headspace Indicator you will understand why.

So do you agree with him that I should buy his instrument for this TCR 83?

I don't drink or do drugs or drive fast cars, so the money is not an issue - at least this small amount isn't a problem. I have acquired small piles of various gun related stuff that I never seem to use and never seem to find when I look for them. LOL
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  #43  
Old 11-18-2023, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
What device would you recommend to acquire to measure this?
A protrusion micrometer that matches the barrel diameter you are working with.
I made my own from a scrap piece of barrel and a micrometer head.
It allows you to measure protrusion of a case or headspace gauge from a flat breech face.
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  #44  
Old 11-18-2023, 2:46 PM
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I can see measuring the 2.040 figure and the 2.2288 figure.

The 2.1162 seems elusive to me as it is in the middle/between two determinable positions.

I'm too stupid to know how to make that protrusion micrometer and don't seem to see one for sale, so am just oiling up the gun, writing a note on what the problem is with the gun and the next owner - after I die - can be bothered with it.
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  #45  
Old 11-18-2023, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
I can see measuring the 2.040 figure and the 2.2288 figure.

The 2.1162 seems elusive to me as it is in the middle/between two determinable positions.

I'm too stupid to know how to make that protrusion micrometer and don't seem to see one for sale, so am just oiling up the gun, writing a note on what the problem is with the gun and the next owner - after I die - can be bothered with it.
Calipers and micrometers are contact measurement tools.
Calipers and micrometers measure the distance between two flat faces.
You can't accurately measure the 2.040" and 2.2288" locations because there's no square face to actually measure to with contact measuring tools.
You would be looking at a radius and placing a caliper jaw there but an accurate measurement is not possible with contact measuring tools.

To accurately measure to those points, you have to use an optical comparator and interpolate the theoretical points which don't exist on the actual cases by laying lines into the enlarged shadowgraph you get on the comparator.
The newer optical comparators with computers in them will do it for you.
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  #46  
Old 11-18-2023, 4:12 PM
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While I wait for the SB dies, I am reloading other calibers and checking on the other project guns I have around the house.

Thank you for your help people, I wish I understood everything as well as you guys do, but I am old with bad eyesight and a poor disposition. Going to play with the guns I have that do work now.
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  #47  
Old 11-23-2023, 6:02 PM
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I took the two-part pivot and locking piece apart from the receiver and lubed them. It was working fine on an empty chamber.

I got the SB dies and i had a very hard time getting the spent casing to fit it and gave up. On the regular die set, I rubber malleted the case in - mallet on the lever and the rifle action did close on the round. It would not eject it. Apparently the ejector is binding on something and will not let the action rise enough so I could force out the case - case will not clear the top of the action. I think I will need to remove the pivot parts to get the barrel and the action apart. The pivot parts did not seem damaged, but neither did the extractor - so will next try to separate the pieces again and try without an extractor in the weapon.
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  #48  
Old 11-23-2023, 9:00 PM
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I did separate it and remove the case.

I did notice this "K Mummo" marking and other barrel proofs (?) on it.

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  #49  
Old 11-23-2023, 9:23 PM
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So, the gun now closes on a SB'd cartridge case, but it won't allow the case to come out.

Taking the extractor/ejector out, the gun closes easily and functions, in terms of trigger pull but again needs extra work to get the case out. Still requires a strong "tap" to get the case out.

There are some signs of binding on the extractor near the end - towards that "K. Mummo" etching.

Something must be rougn in the chamber to hold the case in their snugly.


Guess I will try that "Sharpie" coating to see where the case is sticking next.
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  #50  
Old 11-23-2023, 9:57 PM
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DFletcher, if I do try to fire a few low powered loads thru this - just to see if it works - what FPS type load should I use?

Won't try that until I can get the extractor/case to work normally.
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  #51  
Old 11-23-2023, 11:08 PM
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So, the gun now closes on a SB'd cartridge case, but it won't allow the case to come out.
You are still not sizing the case enough then.

Do you know how much your press springs while you are sizing?
It can be several thousandths.

People think that when you screw a die down against the shellholder without a case in the shellholder that the die will still be touching the shellholder when there is a case in the shellholder.
The press-frame stretching reduces the amount of sizing you are getting by the amount that the press frame stretches.

If you don't believe this, a simple test is to shine a light between your die and your shellholder with and without a case being sized and look for light between the die and shellholder to be the same/different with or without a case.
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  #52  
Old 11-24-2023, 7:44 AM
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I have to correct a misstatement. It was a Lee full length die - the case was refusing to go into the SB die. I can believe that my old Rock Chucker springs a bit. I wish I had your experience with mechanical competence. Clearly, I am not handy with tools.

I have a camera for plumbing work, think I will try to video inside the chamber to see. Will also need to trim the case too and then try that "Sharpie" test that was suggested.

I do listen to you people, I just ain't that bright.
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2023, 9:38 AM
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Also remember that a belted magnum case headspaces on the rim to the top of the belt so a case could be hitting on the shoulder of the chamber but still fit a headspace gauge.
The headspace gauge may not be full cartridge length because the critical dimension is only the belt height. Whereas the loaded ammunition and the fired cases could be longer than a shallow bored chamber.
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2023, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
DFletcher, if I do try to fire a few low powered loads thru this - just to see if it works - what FPS type load should I use?

Won't try that until I can get the extractor/case to work normally.
Any starting point load in Speer, Hornady, etc should be OK.
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  #55  
Old 11-26-2023, 3:07 AM
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Thus far I have only been a spectator to this TCR drama. But some things just do not add up mechanically.

As Randall noted a new cartridge should easily drop into chamber. Or at least with a slight thumb push. Your pic in post 44 shows the ejector being a bit proud of the chamber opening. Which should not prevent chambering to the extent you are experiencing. It should flex the small amount required to chamber a round. Or may be it is crudded up.

I believe your major issue is maybe LOCK UP related. Looking at pics leaves a lot to be desired in evaluating issues. The locking slot in your barrel breech. Appears to have BUGGER BURRS on it. Leading me to believe that the BREECH BOLT is binding in, or on, the slot on the barrel breech.

Here is a list of [have yous].

Have you disassembled the rifle yet? FIRST Do so and clean/lube parts.

Have you marked up a factory round and chambered it by hand? With and without, the extractor in place? With extractor, thumb pressure. Without, should drop in flush with breech.

This may be inconclusive diagnosing the lockup problem, if there is slight binding of the case on the extractor. Some extractors are designed to require slight thumb pressure to chamber. And manual removal with thumb and forefinger. Complicated with belted case.

Angle of pic is weird. Give us a new pic, showing bottom inside of chamber-and -extractor. ....
Off the receiver, the extractor should move forward and back with firm thumb pressure. Because of curved flat anti rattle spring under it.

Have you made note of the freedom of movement of the opening lever. With and Without the barrel in place? Also try it With and Without the extractor installed.

Have you used a straight edge to determine of extractor is proud of breech face of chamber? Looks so in pic, but should not be. If it is, that will cause it to bind on breech face of frame. And F with the alignment of breech bolt and barrel slot.

Break it down, clean it up, and lightly oil it. Stone off any/all burrs. Then get busy diagnosing.
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  #56  
Old 12-02-2023, 7:07 AM
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I got some Heerbright grinding stone sticks - used the smoothest one on the end of the extractor that had a gouge.

I did not expect this to do anything, as it did not smooth out the gouge, but I did smooth the area around it.

Now the 7mm RM empty case goes in and out of the action with no problem.

I have no clue as to why this worked.

Thanks Pacrat.

Will try a low load next, but that may take a while.

I am still scratching my head over this.
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  #57  
Old 12-02-2023, 7:19 PM
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From what I am reading a Rock Chucker is not the preferred reloading press for the 7mm Remington Magnum.

Giving me problems - actually a lubed case got yanked out of the shell holder and is now stuck in my die.

I am sure it is my fault. Perhaps someone is telling me not to fire this rifle?

I have four pieces of brass that went in fine, will reload them with a low-level load to just prove that it can fire.
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  #58  
Old 12-03-2023, 1:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
From what I am reading a Rock Chucker is not the preferred reloading press for the 7mm Remington Magnum.

Giving me problems - actually a lubed case got yanked out of the shell holder and is now stuck in my die.

I am sure it is my fault. Perhaps someone is telling me not to fire this rifle?

I have four pieces of brass that went in fine, will reload them with a low-level load to just prove that it can fire.
Anyone knocking Rock Chuckers for loading 7 mag is talking out their keyster.

Cases stuck in dies are operator errors. Attributed to improper lubing process.
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  #59  
Old 12-03-2023, 2:00 AM
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Probably should have learned reloading from someone with experience. I just read the instructions and probably don't follow all of them.

The lube is like 30 years old too, so maybe time for some new stuff.

I don't reload very often.

Reading about problems with 7mm RM - case expansion above the belt? Only loaded 3 cases with 52 IMR 4064 with a 139 g Hornady bullet. Probably won't shoot them for a while.

Think the case had a defective rim as the others all stayed in the holder - this one just pulled out. Case quite stubbornly refuses to come out of the die too - but I am far from being strong.
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  #60  
Old 12-03-2023, 3:15 PM
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Being fully lubed on a larger case is important.

FWIW I've encountered some variations in brass that had me use a different shell holder. 455 Webley was an is a PITA for me, despite using the "recommended" shell holder.

The Rockchucker or Lyman equivalent will handle pretty much anything short of the 50 BMG. 338 Lapua, 375 Wby and the UltraMags aren't a problem.
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Last edited by dfletcher; 12-03-2023 at 3:20 PM..
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  #61  
Old 12-04-2023, 2:29 AM
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Actually, with my glasses on, I see I have a stuck 30-06 case in the 7mm Remington Magnum die.

Pretty stupid mistake, but I seem to make them on a regular basis.
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  #62  
Old 12-04-2023, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
Actually, with my glasses on, I see I have a stuck 30-06 case in the 7mm Remington Magnum die.

Pretty stupid mistake, but I seem to make them on a regular basis.
..

..

..




https://www.rcbs.com/case-processing...t/16-9355.html

I would also venture to guess that you had a #4 shell holder, for a 7mm rem belted case in the ram?

Which is likely the reason the rim pulled off of the 06 case.

Was alcohol involved in this mishap ???
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  #63  
Old 12-04-2023, 9:13 PM
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The shell holder didn't pull off the rim, the 30-06 case just didn't stay in the 7mm Rem Mag shell holder. Apparently, the only thing defective in this problem is me.

I guess either bad quality control when I separated the cases (multiple calibers) that were given to me - or I grabbed one of the 30-06 cases I also had nearby - from a batch I never finished reloading.

I am going blind from diabetic retinopathy - but currently my eyesight with glasses is ok - I can read - but it is supposedly going to continue getting worse.

I unscrewed the die with the case stuck in it - the internal plunger part seems to be where the case is stuck as it will move about an inch, but it is firmly grasped by something other than the outer die case.

I only noticed the wrong case - as I saw no belt on it - got my glasses and saw that I f'd up again. I don't drink or gamble anymore. Pretty glad I still have my fingers.

Think I stopped on the 30-06 batch because I broke something too. Did get the replacement part, just never got back to it.

Lots of unfinished products in my to do list.

I pity my executor as I have a ton of guns and related crap, not all marked as to what they are and what they go with. I have separate bins for AR-15, AK-47, G/K43, 1911, etc. parts. Spare magazines are in marked zip lock bags - but ammunition components on unfinished projects - not clearly marked.
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  #64  
Old 12-04-2023, 9:17 PM
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Probably shouldn't be watching TV when I reload either.....
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  #65  
Old 12-05-2023, 3:51 AM
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Sorry to hear about eyes. That sucks.

Try this. Dig out a #3 shellholder. That is what will fit the 06 head/rim.

Screw die back into press with 06 case in it.

Raise ram.

Line up the open side of rim opening on the #3 SH with the stuck case.

Snap it onto the rim, and into the ram at same time. Hopefully the #4 SH did not damage the rim overly. May take some fidgeting, cussing, and force to accomplish. Which will require more force to pull expander, back up through neck.

If not, go ahead and get the stuck case remover I linked to above. Always a good thing to have anyway.

You necked a 30 cal neck down to 7mm on that case. That makes the neck a LOT THICKER. Much more so than the standard .284" diameter expander in the 7mm die.
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  #66  
Old 12-05-2023, 4:26 AM
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I already ordered another replacement die.

I should take pictures of the various dies I have screwed up over the years.

You'd think I'd learn to concentrate on what I am doing instead of watching TV while I think I know what I am doing.

Thanks for the help.

Still wondering why stoning the extractor solved the chambering problem. The pre-stoned extractor moved easily without a case in the chamber. I guess the case put some binding power on the extractor?

I don't get it.
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  #67  
Old 12-05-2023, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
I got some Heerbright grinding stone sticks - used the smoothest one on the end of the extractor that had a gouge.

I did not expect this to do anything, as it did not smooth out the gouge, but I did smooth the area around it.

Now the 7mm RM empty case goes in and out of the action with no problem.

I have no clue as to why this worked.

Thanks Pacrat.

Will try a low load next, but that may take a while.

I am still scratching my head over this.
Maybe the process of putting the gouge in the extractor caused a tiny bit of metal 'humping' around the gouge that was enough the cause binding. Your stoning removed that hump. Just a guess.
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Old 12-05-2023, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
I already ordered another replacement die.

I should take pictures of the various dies I have screwed up over the years.

You'd think I'd learn to concentrate on what I am doing instead of watching TV while I think I know what I am doing.

Thanks for the help.

Still wondering why stoning the extractor solved the chambering problem. The pre-stoned extractor moved easily without a case in the chamber. I guess the case put some binding power on the extractor?

I don't get it.
You do not need a new die. You need the case extractor so you can clear your existing die. And any future goofs. For $10 you can solve the problem.

Avoid all distractions when loading ammo.

ETA .... Roger try the proper shell holder for the stuck 06 case, per my prior post. It may very well remove the 06 case from the 7mm die.

Last edited by pacrat; 12-05-2023 at 6:07 PM..
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  #69  
Old 12-06-2023, 12:28 AM
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I thought I couldn't attach the shell holder into the Rock Chucker with the die and case already in it. I will try again.

I can't remove the plunger device using two wrenches. So, I gave up and just bought another die.

I guess you're right, SMLE-Man, I have no better explanation.

Here is a pic of the result of my inattention to detail.

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Old 12-06-2023, 3:41 AM
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Quote:
the internal plunger part seems to be where the case is stuck as it will move about an inch, but it is firmly grasped by something other than the outer die case.
Sequence when sizing rifle cases ... On upstroke of ram, the expander/depriming stem enters case neck first. Expander is inside case below shoulder while the case is being sized, which makes the neck slightly undersized.

On downstroke of ram, the shell holder pulls the case downward. Drawing the expander stem upward through the newly sized neck. Making it proper diameter for seating bullet.

That is why you always feel a little slack, then resistance, just before the case clears the bottom of die when sizing.


There is no PLUNGER DEVICE...... Since you said that the case moves about an inch. That means that the EXPANDER/DEPRIMER STEM is binding at the neck-shoulder junction, inside the case.

Since you sized a 7.62mm/308 neck, down to 7mm/.284". That makes the neck walls THICKER than a standard 7mm case neck. So it will require more force to pull the expander up through the neck.

But your trusty Rock Chucker has more than ample strength and leverage for the job.

Quote:
I thought I couldn't attach the shell holder into the Rock Chucker with the die and case already in it. I will try again.


YES YOU CAN. The die with the stuck case goes into top of press first.

THEN you raise the ram to the right height to align the case rim on slot of SH. And the bottom of shell holder lined up with slot in ram simultaneously. And then the SH will snap into ram, and onto case rim at same time.

A lot easier than the written word makes it sound.
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  #71  
Old 12-06-2023, 4:22 AM
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My shell holder for number 2 looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011720363?pid=701879

I am guessing yours looks like this:

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...b09a5439bc38f2

Mine has shoved the case into the die and doesn't seem willing to squeeze the rim into the shell holder.

Your technique would work with my shell holder?
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  #72  
Old 12-06-2023, 2:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
My shell holder for number 2 looks like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011720363?pid=701879

I am guessing yours looks like this:

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...b09a5439bc38f2

Mine has shoved the case into the die and doesn't seem willing to squeeze the rim into the shell holder.

Your technique would work with my shell holder?
First off; You need a #3 SH.
Not a #2. Which is for RIMMED CARTRIDGES like the 30-30.

I have dozens of various shell holders. All of them look like your first example. None look like the second example.

In answer to the question that I bolded in your quote. YES

Roger, honest question, not being facetious or sarcastic, by any means. Considering your eyesight issue.

Would it be easier for you to see, and understand my posts, if I increased size, and bolded them like this?
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  #73  
Old 12-06-2023, 6:08 PM
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The Lee dies I use come with #2 for 30-06 and 308.

http://www.colescove.com/lee_shell_h...ence_chart.htm

I am guessing Lee and RCBS use different numbering systems.

http://www.lasc.us/rcbsshellholders.htm

I guess I should buy an RCBS #3 to continue on your suggested path.

I should be getting that replacement die soon, so I probably will just follow that path.

Thanks for the help.
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  #74  
Old 12-07-2023, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
The Lee dies I use come with #2 for 30-06 and 308.

http://www.colescove.com/lee_shell_h...ence_chart.htm

I am guessing Lee and RCBS use different numbering systems.

http://www.lasc.us/rcbsshellholders.htm

I guess I should buy an RCBS #3 to continue on your suggested path.

I should be getting that replacement die soon, so I probably will just follow that path.

Thanks for the help.
YES, Lee is an outlier, they use different numbers just to confuse customers. The link you provided as yours, for a #2 SH, was for a RCBS #2.

So I figgered you had RCBS shell holder #2.

But the die you pictured was a belted magnum LEE.

So again YES. A LEE #2 which is a twin for a RCBS #3. Either will work just fine using the procedure I posted. And will take every second of 3 minutes max, from the time your butt sits down at the loading bench.

Hate to see ya waste money buying an unneeded die.

If you do not want to at least give it a try. Just mail me your fugged up 7mm RM die. I will remove the case and send it back to you. Just say the word, and I will PM you my address.
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  #75  
Old 12-07-2023, 3:39 AM
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Rogerbutthead Rogerbutthead is offline
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No need, I already ordered the replacement die, I thank you for your offer.

Keeping it on hand will remind me to pay attention to the task on hand instead of watching whatever is on the boob tube.

I have some 223 that I reloaded that I want to test too, so will do that and the 7mm RM when I make more than the 3 shells I have reloaded. I will post on the action of the TC 83 when I fire some 20 odd shells thru it.

Thanks again.
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  #76  
Old 12-07-2023, 5:27 PM
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The shell holder didn't pull off the rim, the 30-06 case just didn't stay in the 7mm Rem Mag shell holder. Apparently, the only thing defective in this problem is me.

I guess either bad quality control when I separated the cases (multiple calibers) that were given to me - or I grabbed one of the 30-06 cases I also had nearby - from a batch I never finished reloading.
There is a cardinal rule in reloading about keeping only one set of components out on your reloading bench at a time.
This is mostly referring to powders, but it applies equally to primers, cases and bullets too.

If you were loading 120gr 7mm bullets and you substituted some 160gr bullets instead, it could go really poorly.
Please go refresh yourself on the safety rules by re-reading the safety sections in your reloading manuals.
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  #77  
Old 12-07-2023, 5:28 PM
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Probably shouldn't be watching TV when I reload either.....
Distractions are another cardinal safety rule.
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  #78  
Old 12-07-2023, 8:37 PM
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I understand. The 30-06 problem is next on my list to finish and get off the tables. I don't even remember what happened to make me stop, other than I broke my old Lee primer device and f'd up one of the 30-06 dies. Since I reloaded a few hundred 223 in between, I have some small rifle primers laying around but they will be easy, I hope, to distinguish from the large rifle primers - hopefully.

Will try to be more careful in the future, but I am a mechanical/handyman dumb****.
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  #79  
Old 12-07-2023, 8:42 PM
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Here are some pics of the two sides I stoned on the extractor that seems to have at least temporarily solved the problem.





Again, thanks for all the help.
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  #80  
Old 12-08-2023, 10:40 AM
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Here are some pics of the two sides I stoned on the extractor that seems to have at least temporarily solved the problem.

You can continue stoning that angled surface until you remove the tool marks as long as you maintain the angle.
It will be even smoother once the toolmarks are gone and you polish the flat surfaces.
Also stone/polish the parts that's interacting with that angled surface.
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