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  #41  
Old 12-04-2018, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
I was hit past home defense distance and was operated on the same day with 5 pellets exiting out my back. I was out for several months and lost a 102 pounds.
You did not tell with what you been shot.
Please report.

Now, please go back and get shot by another load and report back the difference.


...

Last edited by RandyCat; 12-04-2018 at 5:38 PM..
  #42  
Old 12-04-2018, 2:31 PM
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So the old rule of thumb for a fixed cylinder choke was 1” expansion per yard.

So 15 yards was a 15” pattern.

You can rheem our the forcing cone- extend it from a ring to a 3” taper and that will tighten the groups.


Federal flight safe will cut the group like crazy


Why do you want rifle like/ slug like pattern indoor? That defeats the value of the platform.
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2018, 2:38 PM
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Tagged. For results update.
  #44  
Old 12-04-2018, 2:43 PM
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Lynnjr, several cal gunners have been hit with birdshot and they are all here to tell the story. Yes, it can kill but it’s far from a sure thing.
  #45  
Old 12-04-2018, 2:45 PM
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2011 Detroit police station shooting. Dude with 20 gauge shooting birdshot.
All officers survived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc0UGhPXmD0
  #46  
Old 12-04-2018, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
Lynnjr, several cal gunners have been hit with birdshot and they are all here to tell the story. Yes, it can kill but itís far from a sure thing.

Yeah I am one of them. Luckily I was shot past home defense distances.

RandyCat
I took one for the team with dove loads from a 12 gauge so it's your turn to take one in the stomach at 5 yards to prove me wrong.
I look forward to reading about your results.
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  #47  
Old 12-04-2018, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Yeah I am one of them. Luckily I was shot past home defense distances.

RandyCat
I took one for the team with dove loads from a 12 gauge so it's your turn to take one in the stomach at 5 yards to prove me wrong.
I look forward to reading about your results.
Who were you hunting with, Dick Cheney?
  #48  
Old 12-04-2018, 3:42 PM
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So the trick with bird shot is shoot the BG in the face apparently. And they teach headshots to compensate for lower power loads as a valid tactic in a firearms academy?
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  #49  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Yeah I am one of them. Luckily I was shot past home defense distances.

RandyCat
I took one for the team with dove loads from a 12 gauge so it's your turn to take one in the stomach at 5 yards to prove me wrong.
I look forward to reading about your results.
By the way. I donít appreciate my birdshot info being called BS. I have no reason to make up stories about birdshot. I stand by my claim of a perfect dead center hit on the skull not dropping a smaller yote at 15í.
  #50  
Old 12-04-2018, 4:36 PM
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I killed a javelina in Texas with a duck load at 30 feet almost took his head off.
  #51  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Yeah I am one of them. Luckily I was shot past home defense distances.

RandyCat
I took one for the team with dove loads from a 12 gauge so it's your turn to take one in the stomach at 5 yards to prove me wrong.
I look forward to reading about your results.
Nobody would voluntarily take a number 2 pencil to the eye. But that doesn’t mean it’s a good HD defense tool.
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  #52  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I killed a javelina in Texas with a duck load at 30 feet almost took his head off.
Well then, if one of those fawkers tries to invade your home youíre safe.
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  #53  
Old 12-04-2018, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
By the way. I don’t appreciate my birdshot info being called BS. I have no reason to make up stories about birdshot. I stand by my claim of a perfect dead center hit on the skull not dropping a smaller yote at 15’.
I don't care what you think your story is BS. You said a perfect head shot then your story changed to you bounced a wad off of a coyotes head.
Bouncing the plastic wad off of a coyotes head isn't a perfect shot. Putting an ounce of lead in his skull cap is a perfect shot and the coyote wouldn't have gone anywhere but straight down.
Your story is the same as someone saying they got shot by a M82A1 50 BMG only to find out a spent casing hit them as they walked down the shooting lane.
Your perfect shot was actually a complete miss.
You honestly don't believe an ounce of lead at 1200 FPS bounced off a coyotes head do you? And if it did was it a perfect shot?
We are not sitting in a bar having a beer we are on a website where thousands of actual shooters visit and read these posts.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-04-2018 at 5:56 PM..
  #54  
Old 12-04-2018, 7:18 PM
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Basically rifle like pattern with shotgun like result. If can put a few heavy ball into a good group the results will be tremendous.
Also it will be fun experiment, I am gearing up to teach HD shotgun Women On target courses so it will be great information to share.
I each pistol and rile classes regularly for Women and having good information to share is important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
So the old rule of thumb for a fixed cylinder choke was 1Ē expansion per yard.

So 15 yards was a 15Ē pattern.

You can rheem our the forcing cone- extend it from a ring to a 3Ē taper and that will tighten the groups.


Federal flight safe will cut the group like crazy


Why do you want rifle like/ slug like pattern indoor? That defeats the value of the platform.
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  #55  
Old 12-04-2018, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Birdshot is not used by police and military because they shoot past 13 yards.

https://youtu.be/V5Za7tfzJcwnd

If you would have watched the video above they explain this during there testing.
Birdshot will go completely through a 262 pound human at those distances from personal experience no matter what you read here.

Tell us about your personal experience with being shot with birdshot and the distances involved.

Most everyone who has done any hunting with a shotgun has been hit by pellets but rarely if ever at home defense distances.
Unadultrated BS.

My "personal experience"? An inch or two distance. #5 copper plated lead. 20g 3" mag.

Took out a section of calf muscle and stopped after ~3" of thigh.
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Last edited by JagerDog; 12-04-2018 at 7:32 PM..
  #56  
Old 12-04-2018, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
I don't care what you think your story is BS. You said a perfect head shot then your story changed to you bounced a wad off of a coyotes head.
Bouncing the plastic wad off of a coyotes head isn't a perfect shot. Putting an ounce of lead in his skull cap is a perfect shot and the coyote wouldn't have gone anywhere but straight down.
Your story is the same as someone saying they got shot by a M82A1 50 BMG only to find out a spent casing hit them as they walked down the shooting lane.
Your perfect shot was actually a complete miss.
You honestly don't believe an ounce of lead at 1200 FPS bounced off a coyotes head do you? And if it did was it a perfect shot?
We are not sitting in a bar having a beer we are on a website where thousands of actual shooters visit and read these posts.
Well you must of been there! I get this is a sensitive subject for you but have some respect. It’s not crazy to think #7 birdshot didn’t penetrate a coyotes skull. There was plenty of fur blasted into the air that tells me I hit the yote. I’m not saying it didn’t die but it wasn’t lights out. It ran off and I didn’t miss. I haven’t changed my story at all. I remember laughing to myself thinking that flight control wad flys damn straight. Don’t know why you can’t accept #7 bird shot won’t penetrate skull.

Last edited by deckhandmike; 12-04-2018 at 8:46 PM..
  #57  
Old 12-04-2018, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I killed a javelina in Texas with a duck load at 30 feet almost took his head off.
  #58  
Old 12-04-2018, 8:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Unadultrated BS.

My "personal experience"? An inch or two distance. #5 copper plated lead. 20g 3" mag.

Took out a section of calf muscle and stopped after ~3" of thigh.
Do you think this is bs too Lynn? Light shot is going to have varying results. Are you going to deny another shooting victim had a different result? I got a lot of respect for your long range knowledge but I’m mystified why you don’t understand variances in shot.

Last edited by deckhandmike; 12-04-2018 at 8:38 PM..
  #59  
Old 12-04-2018, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
Well you must of been there! I get this is a sensitive subject for you but have some respect. Itís not crazy to think #7 birdshot didnít penetrate a coyotes skull. There was plenty of fur blasted into the air that tells me I hit the yote. Iím not saying it didnít die but it wasnít lights out. It ran off and I didnít miss. I havenít changed my story at all. I remember laughing to myself thinking that flight control wad flys damn straight. Donít know why you canít accept #7 wonít penetrate skull.
Deckhandmike
I didn't need to be there because I have put more shotshells downrange than most posting here have ever seen.
You missed that coyote by a solid foot and all your story tells us is your not a shotgunner with much experience. Go back and watch the video and see what happens to wads at the exact distance you are claiming.
And the fur flying was from being hit by the wad.
And yes at 15 feet the shot would have killed the coyote had you hit the coyote which you didn't do.
I hunt with a guide in Carbon County Wyoming who gets paid by the state to get rid of coyotes. He uses a pump shotgun with number 6 shot and shoots them from a moving snow mobile or by plane.
I also hunt coyotes with Varmint hunter magazines champion George Tompkins and he uses a shotgun as well.
I told him your story but won't repeat what he said as it isn't necessary.
In a nutshell you missed.
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  #60  
Old 12-04-2018, 8:56 PM
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Yeah, and jagerdog must be full of **** too. He’s probably faking his gun shot wound.
  #61  
Old 12-04-2018, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
Do you think this is bs too Lynn? Light shot is going to have varying results. Are you going to deny another shooting victim had a different result? I got a lot of respect for your long range knowledge but I’m mystified why you don’t understand variances in shot.

I don't doubt his story at all. When I hunt I wear boots and at 15 yards a hit to his calf going through his jeans and boots and 2-3 inches into his leg means he got hit by the outflyers in the round not center mass.
Had it been 5 yards and a direct hit it would have broken his leg just like getting hit by a train.
I had about 70 pellets removed and only 5 went completely through so I know what happens firsthand.
And he never included a distance so I am guessing his story will now change to point blank range? 5 yards? 30 yards?
And RandyCat is going to have someone shoot him at 5 yards so we can all wait and read his firsthand report.
The longest shot possible in my home is 15 yards not 15 feet. If someone was to bring there dog over and let me have one shot at his head with birdshot at 15 yards not feet what do you think the outcome would be? Do you think it will run off like the coyote you shot at 1/3 that distance?
And please nobody try that as you won't like the results.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-04-2018 at 9:08 PM..
  #62  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
I don't doubt his story at all. When I hunt I wear boots and at 15 yards a hit to his calf going through his jeans and boots and 2-3 inches into his leg means he got hit by the outflyers in the round not center mass.
Had it been 5 yards and a direct hit it would have broken his leg just like getting hit by a train.
I had about 70 pellets removed and only 5 went completely through so I know what happens firsthand.
And he never included a distance so I am guessing his story will now change to point blank range? 5 yards? 30 yards?
And RandyCat is going to have someone shoot him at 5 yards so we can all wait and read his firsthand report.
The longest shot possible in my home is 15 yards not 15 feet. If someone was to bring there dog over and let me have one shot at his head with birdshot at 15 yards not feet what do you think the outcome would be? Do you think it will run off like the coyote you shot at 1/3 that distance?
And please nobody try that as you won't like the results.
You're so full of crap. I suppose your boots go above your knee? Are you a Korean coffee girl? Do you even know what a calf is?

They don't remove shotgun pellets unless they are at the surface or precariously placed (like move a mm and paralyze you).

I've got well over 100 in my right groin (after vaporizing about the size of the nurse's fist of calf) and the CT scan to back it up. Ya...outfliers.

I suspect the pellets travel through hot air real well though.
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Last edited by JagerDog; 12-04-2018 at 9:33 PM..
  #63  
Old 12-04-2018, 9:37 PM
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Why is it called BIRD SHOT?
Was the FBI inept in their testing when they concluded bird shot is not an effective load for human targets?
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  #64  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
You're so full of crap. I suppose your boots go above your knee? Are you a Korean coffee girl? Do you even know what a calf is?

They don't remove shotgun pellets unless they are at the surface or precariously placed (like move a mm and paralyze you).

I've got well over 100 in my right groin (after vaporizing about the size of the nurse's fist of calf) and the CT scan to back it up. Ya...outfliers.

I suspect the pellets travel through hot air real well though.

JagerDog
I am not trying to point out your ignorance but your calf is below your knee and most here know that. If you have 100 pellets in your groin your doctor doesn't know where your calf is either. As this thread has now gone from bad to simply making it it all up your calf muscle is between your ankle and your knee on the backside of your lower leg.
Wow just wow it is nowhere near your groin and on the opposite side.
Most here know an ounce and a eighth of birdshot at 1200 FPS has 1500 pounds of energy at home defense distances and that is roughly 1.5 times the energy recommended for deer hunting.
The video clearly explained why the FBI Military and Law Enforcement don't use birdshot so I guess you didn't watch it or understand what they said during there testing?
The picture is a month after the surgery and all the scans and x-rays plus the full medical report is at Kaiser.
Now let's see your picture of your calf shot that is above the knee at your groin as you are making medical history.

And whomever told you they leave the lead shot in your body is watching to many John Wayne westerns. They not only removed the lead shot but my stomach as well.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20150914_100433678.jpg (87.3 KB, 130 views)
File Type: jpg 493x335_calf_muscle.jpg (27.4 KB, 125 views)
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-04-2018 at 10:19 PM..
  #65  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JagerDog
I am not trying to point out your ignorance but you calf is below your knee and most here know that.
Most here know an ounce and a eighth of birdshot at 1200 FPS has 1500 pounds of energy at home defense distances and that is roughly 1.5 times the energy recommended for deer hunting.
The video clearly explained why the FBI Military and Law Enforcement don't use birdshot so I guess you didn't watch it or understand what they said during there testing?
The picture is a month after the surgery and all the scans and x-rays plus the full medical report is at Kaiser.
Now let's see your picture of your calf shot that is above the knee as you are making medical history.
And whomever told you they leave the shot in your body is watching to many John Wayne westerns.
I didn't say it was above the knee. I said it was the calf. The calf is above any standard (9-10") hunting boot. So your presumption that the pellets first had to tear through boot leather, then some "outfliers" penetrated my groin are simply not valid.

Buckshot (total payload) has no more footpounds than birdshot. But it's never been about energy. It's always been about the effectiveness of the work that energy will do.

There's plenty of tests with various pellets shot into ballistic gel (a medium designed to mimick soft tissue). My "anectdotal experience" coincides with these tests within the variability of the tests. Yours is WAYYYYY outside the test results. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to determine which claim has more credibility.

I'll dig up the CD with the pics and CT scan when I get home.
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Last edited by JagerDog; 12-04-2018 at 10:26 PM..
  #66  
Old 12-05-2018, 7:56 AM
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JagerDog
Well actually you said I was full of dung and asked if my boots went above my knee. That was your post not mine as I don't get emotional and just post the facts
Next up you asked if I was a Korean girl. Again I don't get emotional I just post the facts along with the proof.
Next you said you were hit in the calf and now you are saying your groin has 100 pellets.
Do you see how your story is falling apart and starting to unravel?
Next we have pellets in your calf on the backside of your leg and 100 pellets in your groin yet you only mentioned the pellets in your calf.
My calf is 24 inches from my groin so your shot if we are using Randy's cylinder bore theory of 1 inch per yard would indeed support my claim that your incident took place well beyond home defense distances.
To further that point you stated number 5 copper plated shot from a 3 inch magnum calling into question wether your gun was a cylinder bore at 5 yards or a duck gun at 40 yards.
Do you see how the facts are starting to stack up against your claims?
It's called a lot of experience.
So in a nutshell you were most likely shot with a duck gun with a tight choke way beyond home defense distances and you were lucky to survive and needed alot of medical help.
In short you were incapacitated and would have dropped the TV after being struck with birdshot at outlandish distances for home defense.
Do you see this as plausible?
I won't argue about credibility with you as I just don't get the emotional responses from people with no experience. Atleast in your case you have experience just not with a cylinder bore shot at home defense distances. Oh wait a minute wasn't it myself who pointed out lots of hunters get shot each year but beyond home defense distances?
Tell us how you got shot in the back of the leg and in the groin? Was it 2 hits?
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-05-2018 at 8:07 AM..
  #67  
Old 12-05-2018, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnWnMe View Post
So the trick with bird shot is shoot the BG in the face apparently. And they teach headshots to compensate for lower power loads as a valid tactic in a firearms academy?
No it's just common sense, if all you have in the gun is Birdshot you aim at the place it will do the most damage.

If you shoot a guy directly in the face,,, like he is charging you,, you only need 3-4" of penetration to get to his brain thru the eye sockets.

With my gun at 7 yards buckshot patterns a little over 1.5" it is 3" at 15 yards and 7 at 25. (See pic above)

Birdshot will be about 3" at 7 yds and 7" at 15 yards.

The steel man sized targets at Front Sight have a head that is @7x7" The gun will remove ALL the Fresh Paint from the head with the first shot ! The shot column is so dense there is no paint left on that surface. Open bore guns are not the same.

You can see the difference between that target and others in the line as mine is White and theirs are dark gray. Even the instructors noticed it.

At 15 yards the load is still going 1000 fps and the shot column is only about 12" long so everything is hitting at once. And despite all BS to the contrary it will kill you.

This is common sense and it doesn't take a big test on Jello to know it will work . Have you noticed how the jello flops around when hit. That flop eats up the majority of the energy. If they tied the blocks down the results would be different.

Really? are you gonna tell me that you wouldn't shoot a home invader in the face with birdshot if that's all you could get your hands on?

Go shoot some painted steel targets at close range and judge for yourself anyone who has done it knows what happens. WE shoot a plate rack at every one of my 3 gun shoots at about 7-10 yards and you'd be surprised how many guys miss those 8" circles because their patterns are small at that distance. They have to be repainted after every iteration.

I will state this again: If you shoot a guy in the face who is running at you at less than 10 yards with #8 Walmart Birdshot,,, it will kill him!

If it doesn't,,, he will certainly wish he was dead! IE: In need of a serious face transplant if he makes the weekend!

Look,,, go shoot a watermelon from 7 yards,,, that should convince you.

Randy
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  #68  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:16 AM
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I know bird shot will kill a coyote easy, pheasant load #4 at around 15 yards with a full choke, dead as a door nail, hit in the head even closer Iím sure I would have had to take a shower lmfao. I think it would kill just about anything under 20 yards.


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  #69  
Old 12-05-2018, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
And whomever told you they leave the lead shot in your body is watching to many John Wayne westerns. They not only removed the lead shot but my stomach as well.
About 1960 my dad got shot while pheasant hunting.
He said he was bruised up pretty good in spots.
The heavy shirt and coat he was wearing stopped the shot from going into his back and arms, but some went in his azz.
The doctors left them there.
He was still carrying those pellets in his azz when he passed away last year.


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  #70  
Old 12-05-2018, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
No it's just common sense, if all you have in the gun is Birdshot you aim at the place it will do the most damage.

If you shoot a guy directly in the face,,, like he is charging you,, you only need 3-4" of penetration to get to his brain thru the eye sockets.

With my gun at 7 yards buckshot patterns a little over 1.5" it is 3" at 15 yards and 7 at 25. (See pic above)

Birdshot will be about 3" at 7 yds and 7" at 15 yards.

The steel man sized targets at Front Sight have a head that is @7x7" The gun will remove ALL the Fresh Paint from the head with the first shot ! The shot column is so dense there is no paint left on that surface. Open bore guns are not the same.

You can see the difference between that target and others in the line as mine is White and theirs are dark gray. Even the instructors noticed it.

At 15 yards the load is still going 1000 fps and the shot column is only about 12" long so everything is hitting at once. And despite all BS to the contrary it will kill you.

This is common sense and it doesn't take a big test on Jello to know it will work . Have you noticed how the jello flops around when hit. That flop eats up the majority of the energy. If they tied the blocks down the results would be different.

Really? are you gonna tell me that you wouldn't shoot a home invader in the face with birdshot if that's all you could get your hands on?

Go shoot some painted steel targets at close range and judge for yourself anyone who has done it knows what happens. WE shoot a plate rack at every one of my 3 gun shoots at about 7-10 yards and you'd be surprised how many guys miss those 8" circles because their patterns are small at that distance. They have to be repainted after every iteration.

I will state this again: If you shoot a guy in the face who is running at you at less than 10 yards with #8 Walmart Birdshot,,, it will kill him!

If it doesn't,,, he will certainly wish he was dead! IE: In need of a serious face transplant if he makes the weekend!

Look,,, go shoot a watermelon from 7 yards,,, that should convince you.

Randy
So you promote downloading to a weaker load in order to have a more difficult shot instead of using proven effective loads that will work with a COM shot?
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Old 12-05-2018, 5:56 PM
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anyway....

if i am defending myself inside my own home, i don't want a big spread because i don't want to hit anything outside where i am aiming, and i don't need a bigger spread to help me hit what i want at those distances.
  #72  
Old 12-05-2018, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
anyway....

if i am defending myself inside my own home, i don't want a big spread because i don't want to hit anything outside where i am aiming, and i don't need a bigger spread to help me hit what i want at those distances.
Well said. I prefer a hd barrel that will take a choke for that reason. Plus it increases effective range if you happen to be outdoors.


And despite all the bs in this thread itís the most exciting thing to happen to the shotgun forum in years, lol.
  #73  
Old 12-05-2018, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JagerDog
Well actually you said I was full of dung and asked if my boots went above my knee. That was your post not mine as I don't get emotional and just post the facts
Next up you asked if I was a Korean girl. Again I don't get emotional I just post the facts along with the proof.
Next you said you were hit in the calf and now you are saying your groin has 100 pellets.
Do you see how your story is falling apart and starting to unravel?
Next we have pellets in your calf on the backside of your leg and 100 pellets in your groin yet you only mentioned the pellets in your calf.
My calf is 24 inches from my groin so your shot if we are using Randy's cylinder bore theory of 1 inch per yard would indeed support my claim that your incident took place well beyond home defense distances.
To further that point you stated number 5 copper plated shot from a 3 inch magnum calling into question wether your gun was a cylinder bore at 5 yards or a duck gun at 40 yards.
Do you see how the facts are starting to stack up against your claims?
It's called a lot of experience.
So in a nutshell you were most likely shot with a duck gun with a tight choke way beyond home defense distances and you were lucky to survive and needed alot of medical help.
In short you were incapacitated and would have dropped the TV after being struck with birdshot at outlandish distances for home defense.
Do you see this as plausible?
I won't argue about credibility with you as I just don't get the emotional responses from people with no experience. Atleast in your case you have experience just not with a cylinder bore shot at home defense distances. Oh wait a minute wasn't it myself who pointed out lots of hunters get shot each year but beyond home defense distances?
Tell us how you got shot in the back of the leg and in the groin? Was it 2 hits?
You really don't listen very well or have a problem with English. I already said it was a few inches max from the muzzle. The shot charge took out a chunk of calf then entered my groin area and proceeded, on average, another 3" deep. Should I tell you a few pellets went through my sack too? They did.

The typical calf area is above the typical hunting boot area. The calf area in question is just below my left knee. If that was covered by boots, then over-the-knee Korean coffee girl boots is likely.

I was breaking up/preventing a dog fight. I was close to prone as I tossed my shotgun aside and launched myself between the 2 dogs. When the other dog owner came to lend a hand, he still had his shotgun in his other hand, stuffing the muzzle against my calf. When he grabbed the collar and his dog lunged, his shotgun discharged. So basically ALL your assumptions fall apart.

I took the vast majority of the footpounds of energy, stood up wondering WTF did I just hear (muffled shot since the muzzle was in my calf). Aprised myself then saw the ragged pants and blood spurting (femoral artery perforated), said "I've been shot...I'm gonna die" (knowing where my femoral artery is and the nature of shotgun wounds). I could have easily "fought back" and returned fire for the next 30 seconds or so (before my knees buckled) if that was the order of business presented. I stayed conscious, though shocking bad, for maybe 30 minutes until I got loaded on the chopper. I didn't even know my calf was hit. I did know it was painful when the EMT pulled on my boot after cutting the laces. I found out why after I woke up in the ER. Very little pain in the field. There's no drug as effective as shock. Excruciating pain in the hospital when they''d change dressings, prior surgery as the sural (sp) nerve was severed and the live ends were in the wound. I know just how the guy who cut off his arm, which was stuck in the rocks, with a Swiss Army knife felt. Pass out, come to, cut a little more, pass out....repeat.

And another emphatic NO to them removing pellets which aren't basically at the surface or precarious. The body will encapsulate the deeper lead in a cyst like fashion. You're only susceptible to lead poisoning for a short while until that happens. Shallow pellets will fester out like a splinter. I know a couple people who have been shot (not quite as dramatically) and each "leaked lead" for some time.

Funny about the "John Wayne movies". It was that very drama in which "we have to get the bullet out or he'll die". Then fish around with a skinning knife..."plink" the lead into a cup...and cowboy is back in the saddle in a couple days. Whether that was the predominant wisdom at the time or just drama, I'm not all that sure. But removing non-worrisome lead pellets has not been the protocol for decades.

Talk about facts stacking up against a story. It's frikkin comical how wrong you are.

But a valuable takeaway for any bird hunters here: If you're ever involved with a fight between bird dogs, fire your shotgun. EVERYTHING stopped when the gun went off. I attribute it to "where's the bird?".
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#Blackolivesmatter

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  #74  
Old 12-05-2018, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
Well you must of been there! I get this is a sensitive subject for you but have some respect. It’s not crazy to think #7 birdshot didn’t penetrate a coyotes skull. There was plenty of fur blasted into the air that tells me I hit the yote. I’m not saying it didn’t die but it wasn’t lights out. It ran off and I didn’t miss. I haven’t changed my story at all. I remember laughing to myself thinking that flight control wad flys damn straight. Don’t know why you can’t accept #7 bird shot won’t penetrate skull.
Funny things can happen with projectiles.

We've seen where I guy gets shot in the head and the bullet travels around his skull under the skin never penetrating the skull.

I've seen a deer that got hit with a .264 mag drop like a sack of potatoes exposing a large area of white shoulder bone....then run off several minuets later as my dad was pulling out his knife. That was funny has HE77. Watching my dad chase after that deer with a knife in his hand, yelling "come back here you sumbeetch".

I've seen geese fall out of the sky without a pellet in them, but further forensics showed a bruise at a wing joint from a pellet.

We have a story here where a ~0.08" pellets supposedly achieved some remarkable penetration.

I'm gonna guess the yote got very lucky and things happened just right for the shot charge to hit far enough off orthagonal to glance off once hard bone was reached. I've dropped yotes broadside at 20+ yards with #5 (lead) duck loads and modified choke.

When it comes to HD, it's no different than anything else in life. Everything's a gamble, but you do what you can to put the odds in your favor. That means incorporating things like the FBI and other numerous other studies done with penetration, expansion and ultimate "stopping the threat" at the least risk to yourself.
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#Blackolivesmatter

Last edited by JagerDog; 12-05-2018 at 9:13 PM..
  #75  
Old 12-05-2018, 9:00 PM
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Greg LeMond the bicycle racer has several pellets left in his back from a hunting accident in the 80s.
  #76  
Old 12-05-2018, 9:39 PM
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It only takes one pellet in the right spot.....if it runs get a jagdterrier on it!
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  #77  
Old 12-05-2018, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Funny things can happen with projectiles...I've seen geese fall out of the sky without a pellet in them, but further forensics showed a bruise at a wing joint from a pellet...
While duck hunting with a friend, he shot at a duck and it kept flying and he says, "I know I hit that one" (he might have used a little stronger language than that). The duck kept flying and after about 10 wing beats it just falls from the sky, stone cold dead. Then he says "I hit it in the heart". I watched him do this on 2 different occasions. Both times, when we cleaned them, there was a hole in the heart.
  #78  
Old 12-06-2018, 8:04 AM
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I've waded into bird/buck arguments before. I'm firmly in the birdshot is for birds camp though. I've seen and heard far too many failed stops with birdshot to ever think it will reliably stop much more than a squirrel.

I use Federal Flite Control 00. The #1 has a strong following, but it's much harder to find and I was trying to stock up before the ammo ban. I like the Flite Control wad because it removes a lot of the variables from barrel to barrel. As long as you use cylinder or improved, anything tighter will strip off the wad as it leaves the barrel.
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  #79  
Old 12-06-2018, 8:10 AM
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You guys are correct that back in the last century the doctor's didn't do very good care.
In the 21st century they pull the pellets

BobGa
If you are pheasant hunting and shoot a bird only to have it fly straight upward you hit it in the head.
I witnessed this twice and both times the shooter claimed a headshot. We skinned the head out and sure enough found the hole.

And as a sidenote you don't have to shoot anyone in the face with birdshot at home defense distances. Shoot them in the torso. The size of a single pellet means nothing as a single pellet means you missed your target.
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  #80  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnWnMe View Post
So you promote downloading to a weaker load in order to have a more difficult shot instead of using proven effective loads that will work with a COM shot?
No, I said birdshot will kill a guy if it hits him in the face. I have buckshot in my HD gun, but if I had to shoot with birdshot I would not feel under gunned just more careful about POA!

If you had read and actually understood what I said, you would have gotten this idea.

It wasn't camouflaged in any way, pretty clear actually. Please re read the first sentence.

And If you can't make a head shot at 7 yards with the guy coming at you, you won't be able to make a COM shot either. The point of aim is only about 12" lower.

Randy
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