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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1121  
Old 06-05-2020, 3:33 PM
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https://michellawyers.com/young-v-hawaii/

Amicus Briefs In Support of Appellant Young
Amicus Briefs In Support of Appellee Hawaii
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  #1122  
Old 06-05-2020, 3:38 PM
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When do we found out who the judges are?
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  #1123  
Old 06-05-2020, 6:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
https://michellawyers.com/young-v-hawaii/

Amicus Briefs In Support of Appellant Young
Amicus Briefs In Support of Appellee Hawaii
As to the list of Amicus Briefs supporting you . . .

. . . gotta love the about face taking place by some of the "well recognized" names - a few who were actually here on Calguns.net.

Key personas who addressed Open Carry and those putting forth arguments on its legal merits with utter disdain and vitriol.

But hey, lawyers . . .

I'm hoping for some action soon Mr. Beck, both in your case and in Mr. Nichols case. The wait is is downright disgusting.

Good Luck!

=8-)
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  #1124  
Old 06-05-2020, 10:15 PM
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I personally would love to have open carry as the right. It would then paint into a corner may issue CCW's. If the States rather not SEE guns on the hips of thier citizens, they must make CCW's very easy to obtain with little cost. It would also help reciprocity (at least for the states under the 9th).
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  #1125  
Old 06-06-2020, 3:59 AM
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When do we found out who the judges are?
If memory serves a week or so before orals.
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  #1126  
Old 06-06-2020, 7:21 AM
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It would be nice to have a CCW law like Arizona's no permit required.
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  #1127  
Old 06-06-2020, 8:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Paraphrasing the state’s argument: “hypothetical access to carry permits satisfies the right to bear arms.”
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  #1128  
Old 06-06-2020, 8:35 AM
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God Bless Alan and George who are actively doing something to try to restore the Liberty we have allowed the government to take from us. What they, among others, are doing is expensive, time and life consuming. The State has unlimited resources. The state has the help of other gun grabbing states with unlimited resources. Wolfwood, please provide a method so that we can at least help out with contributions to your efforts. Thank you for fighting this fight!
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  #1129  
Old 06-07-2020, 4:10 PM
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FWIW, Peruta was heard en banc on 2015 June 16 and decided 2016 June 09, so don't be surprised if it takes them a year here too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruta...n_Diego_County
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  #1130  
Old 06-07-2020, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
Except that the selection of panel judges is random. And the panel was selected before the stay because there was no stay. the case proceeded as normal until the stay order.
IIRC, they selected the panel despite knowing SCOTUS granted NYSRPA cert and then immediately stay Young.
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  #1131  
Old 06-07-2020, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Case Name: George Young, Jr. v. State of Hawaii, et al
Case Number: 12-17808
Document(s): Document(s)

Docket Text:
Filed order (SIDNEY R. THOMAS): On February 14, 2019, this Court stayed en banc proceedings pending the issuance of an opinion by the United States Supreme Court in New York State Rifle& Pistol Association, Inc, v. City of New York, No. 18-820 and further order of this Court. The Supreme Court has now issued its decision. New York State Rifle & Pistol ***’n, Inc, v. City of New York, 590 U.S. ___, 2020 WL 1978708 (April 27, 2020). Therefore, the stay of en banc proceedings in this case is lifted. En banc argument will take place during the week of September 21, 2020, at the James R. Browning United States Courthouse in San Francisco, California. The specific date and time will be set by separate order. For further information or special requests regarding scheduling, please contact Deputy Clerk Paul Keller at Paul_Keller@ca9.uscourts.gov or (206) 224- 2236. Given this order, appellant Young’s motion to lift the stay (Dckt # [226]) is DENIED as moot. The parties are instructed to file simultaneous supplemental briefs of no more than 10,000 words on or before June 4, 2020. The parties may file an optional supplemental reply brief of not more than 5,000 words on or before June 22, 2020. Given this order, the State of Hawai’i’s motion for supplemental briefing (Dckt # [202]) is DENIED as moot. The parties shall file with the Court eighteen additional copies of the supplemental briefs filed within seven days of the due dates. The State of Louisiana’s motion for an extension of time in which to file an amicus curiae brief (Dckt # [218]) is GRANTED. The amicus brief will be due on or before June 4, 2020, shall not exceed 5,000 words, and shall otherwise conform to the requirements of Ninth Circuit Rule 29. Amicus shall file with the Court eighteen additional copies of the brief filed within seven days of the due date. Further motions to file amicus briefs must be filed on or before June 4, 2020, must conform to the requirements of Circuit Rule 29, and any brief submitted shall not exceed 5,000 words. Any amicus curiae who is granted leave to file an amicus brief shall file with the Court eighteen additional copies of the brief within seven days after leave to file a brief is granted. [11677171] (AF)
~15 weeks to go!

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  #1132  
Old 06-08-2020, 11:16 AM
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Docket Text:
Filed clerk order (Deputy Clerk: AF): Defendants-Appellees’ motion for an extension of time to file their supplemental en banc reply brief is GRANTED. The reply brief for both parties will now be due on Monday, June 29, 2020. [11713990] (AF)

Notice will be electronically mailed to:
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  #1133  
Old 06-08-2020, 6:24 PM
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one last amicus from brady campaign
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Young Brady Campaign Amicus 1.pdf (556.8 KB, 31 views)
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  #1134  
Old 06-09-2020, 3:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobler View Post
.... It would also help reciprocity (at least for the states under the 9th).
How so? Alaska, Idaho, Montana and Arizona already recognize permits from all other states. Nevada and Washington recognize Utah, which is easy for non residents to get. Nevada and Washington also issue to non residents on a shall issue basis, which eliminates the need for reciprocity. So it is already easy to carry in most states in the 9th Circuit.

That leaves California, Oregon and Hawaii, which do not recognize permits from any other states. Oregon is may issue for non residents of adjoining states and there are some Oregon sheriffs who are nearly shall issue to residents of these states. So for a California resident who has a permit it is already easy to carry in all states in the 9th Circuit other than Hawaii.
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  #1135  
Old 06-10-2020, 6:27 AM
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one last amicus from brady campaign
There is so much double speak in that doc. They denounce the recent events in Virginia where an organized group of armed citizens ( a militia) protested the government and succeed in stopping legislation. Then in the next section pleaded that the right only applies to a militia.

If anything that example in Virginia proves how an armed militia can peacefully protect themselves from government infringement on rights.
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  #1136  
Old 06-10-2020, 9:29 AM
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There is so much double speak in that doc. They denounce the recent events in Virginia where an organized group of armed citizens ( a militia) protested the government and succeed in stopping legislation. Then in the next section pleaded that the right only applies to a militia.

If anything that example in Virginia proves how an armed militia can peacefully protect themselves from government infringement on rights.
Absolutely! They can protest all they want. In Idaho that would fall on deaf ears. See ARTICLE XIV Section 1 of the Idaho Constitution.
"PERSONS SUBJECT TO MILITARY DUTY. All able-bodied male persons, residents of this state, between the ages of eighteen and forty-five years, shall be enrolled in the militia, and perform such military duty as may be required by law; but no person having conscientious scruples against bearing arms, shall be compelled to perform such duty in time of peace. Every person claiming such exemption from service, shall, in lieu thereof, pay into the school fund of the county of which he may be a resident, an equivalent in money, the amount and manner of payment to be fixed by law."

The North Idaho Militia, recognizing that women have equal rights, has female members as well as members over 45 years of age.
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  #1137  
Old 06-11-2020, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post

The North Idaho Militia, recognizing that women have equal rights, has female members as well as members over 45 years of age.
But neither are protected by the State Constitution...



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  #1138  
Old 06-11-2020, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
~15 weeks to go!

Which again is 1 day longer than.



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  #1139  
Old 06-11-2020, 6:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
one last amicus from brady campaign
I Tried to read thru it....

But after reading years of this type of Horse Sh*t from the Anti-2A
Zealots, I find myself just Rolling my Eyes at all the Incorrect Opinions
framed as though they are Now Facts and the obligatory Cherry
Picking of Rare Events as if that is the Norm, etc...

I fear reading documents like this will eventually Give Me Brain Cancer..

Quote:
INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
The panel opinion claims that the Second Amendment "protect[s]
a right to carry a firearm in public for self-defense"
3 and restricts
states’ authority to reduce the risks resulting from public carry —
as Hawaii’s laws do. The ruling is unsupported by District of
Columbia v. Heller,4 and the Second Amendment’s text and
meaning, and would dangerously limit states’ longstanding
police power to protect Americans’ most fundamental right —
their right to live.
Dear Democrat Morons, Disarming American Citizens and stripping
them of the Ability to Adequately Defend Themselves, Family, Friends
and Neighbors from say, as a Recent Example, RIOTING,
is an Actual Infringement on a Fundamental Right, you Twits.


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  #1140  
Old 06-15-2020, 6:56 AM
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With the wipeout of all the 2nd A cases at SCOTUS today, all eyes turn to Young (and then Nichols, and then Flanagan).

~14 weeks to go!

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  #1141  
Old 06-15-2020, 7:00 AM
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So how screwed are we on this? Very?
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  #1142  
Old 06-15-2020, 7:04 AM
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So how screwed are we on this? Very?
Look on the bright side: if Trump wins re-election and the GOP holds the Senate, and he gets to replace an anti within a year, this case will be perfect and ready for SCOTUS review.
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  #1143  
Old 06-16-2020, 6:45 PM
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So how screwed are we on this? Very?
IMHO, but IANAL. I don't hold much hope fore YOUNG. In light of the fact that just yesterday. SCOTUS gave a green light to any/all leftist politicos to pass any ANTI-2A crap they want to. Because SCOTUS...........JDGAF.

And the Ninth Circus has carte blanc to now totally ignore the 2A.
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  #1144  
Old 06-28-2020, 5:32 AM
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So how screwed are we on this? Very?
Well, according to my very unofficial math skills we are looking at about a 28% chance of picking 6 GOP nominee judges (6 needed to win en banc). And obviously not all of them would necessarily vote for our side. I don't know if any Dems would vote for our side either.
But one bright spot is that the 9th painted themselves into a corner after the Peruta en banc. If they try to come back and say that now open carry is not protected, they set up a split with Moore (and basically uphold a complete carry ban). They also may try to cut and paste other carry opinions from CA2-4. Only problem is that Hawaii hasn't issued a permit....so the 9th would essentially back a completely theoretical permit and the most restrictive system in the nation.
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  #1145  
Old 06-28-2020, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Look on the bright side: if Trump wins re-election and the GOP holds the Senate, and he gets to replace an anti within a year, this case will be perfect and ready for SCOTUS review.
If this happens and that happens - when the planets align we will finally win.

Problem is the dummies are blaming Trump for the riots and the Xi Jinping flu fallout. He may not get re-elected. I wouldn't count on it, but there is still time.

Now, if the planets don't align, we in for a heap of troubles. In 5 to 10 years, you will see Chinese and Russian warships in our ports and their warplanes in our airspace.

I'll say this again: hear that sucking sound? It's a decade's worth of money feeding attorneys that don't win enough.
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  #1146  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:02 AM
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Well, according to my very unofficial math skills we are looking at about a 28% chance of picking 6 GOP nominee judges (6 needed to win en banc).
Not even close. The en banc panel was selected last February, at which time only two of the 10 Trump appointees had been seated (one of whom was anti-gunner Mark Bennett). And one anti-gunner (Chief Judge Thomas) is automatically seated. So we would have needed 6 of the remaining 10 to be favorable draws. At that time, there were only 6 active judges (including Bennett) appointed by Republican Presidents plus O'Scainlann (who as a Senior Judge on the 3-judge panel was eligible for the draw) against 17 Dem-appointed judges (plus Clifton, who was appointed by GWB, but dissented on the original panel).

The odds of a successful draw was less than 1%. Don't get your hopes up on this one.
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  #1147  
Old 06-29-2020, 2:40 PM
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Today we filed our reply brief in Young and the State filed their reply. The first link is to the State's and the second is ours.

https://pdfhost.io/v/5tvyPqdIw_Micro...ef_629docx.pdf

https://pdfhost.io/v/e1xBjJK8P_Young...y_Briefpdf.pdf
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Old 06-29-2020, 2:51 PM
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Not even close. The en banc panel was selected last February, at which time only two of the 10 Trump appointees had been seated (one of whom was anti-gunner Mark Bennett). And one anti-gunner (Chief Judge Thomas) is automatically seated. So we would have needed 6 of the remaining 10 to be favorable draws. At that time, there were only 6 active judges (including Bennett) appointed by Republican Presidents plus O'Scainlann (who as a Senior Judge on the 3-judge panel was eligible for the draw) against 17 Dem-appointed judges (plus Clifton, who was appointed by GWB, but dissented on the original panel).

The odds of a successful draw was less than 1%. Don't get your hopes up on this one.
I haven't seen any list of judge for this case, are you guessing or do you have some inside info ?
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Old 06-29-2020, 4:19 PM
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I haven't seen any list of judge for this case, are you guessing or do you have some inside info ?
I don't have any inside info on this case, I have just practiced in the Ninth Circuit for many years. The panel for this case was drawn; and once drawn, the panel maintains jurisdiction over the case until its completion (absent extenuating circumstances, e.g., the death or unavailability of a panel member). It was the 11-member en banc panel that voted to stay this case pending NYSRPA last February, and it will be that same panel that hears it in September. Just because we don't know the names of the panel members (those are published the Monday of the week prior to argument) does not mean they haven't been assigned; they have been. Panels are assigned many months in advance of argument (a very large percentage of three-judge appeals are decided without argument), and especially en banc panels, which require so many judges to travel (almost always to San Francisco) long distances. (The court tries to mitigate this problem by setting most of the en banc sessions on dates when many of the judges will be in town, e.g. in September when new clerk orientation is held.)
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Old 06-29-2020, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LVSox View Post
I don't have any inside info on this case, I have just practiced in the Ninth Circuit for many years. The panel for this case was drawn; and once drawn, the panel maintains jurisdiction over the case until its completion (absent extenuating circumstances, e.g., the death or unavailability of a panel member). It was the 11-member en banc panel that voted to stay this case pending NYSRPA last February, and it will be that same panel that hears it in September. Just because we don't know the names of the panel members (those are published the Monday of the week prior to argument) does not mean they haven't been assigned; they have been. Panels are assigned many months in advance of argument (a very large percentage of three-judge appeals are decided without argument), and especially en banc panels, which require so many judges to travel (almost always to San Francisco) long distances. (The court tries to mitigate this problem by setting most of the en banc sessions on dates when many of the judges will be in town, e.g. in September when new clerk orientation is held.)

Ok .. Aren't the members of the original three judge panel also on the En Banc panel ?
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Old 06-29-2020, 4:39 PM
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Ok .. Aren't the members of the original three judge panel also on the En Banc panel ?
No. Those who were on it were eligible to be drawn (the Senior Judges, Clifton and O'Scainlann had the option of being in the pool from which the 11 members are drawn or not), but the only auto member is the Chief Judge (Thomas).
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Old 06-29-2020, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LVSox View Post
... especially en banc panels, which require so many judges to travel (almost always to San Francisco) long distances. (The court tries to mitigate this problem by setting most of the en banc sessions on dates when many of the judges will be in town, e.g. in September when new clerk orientation is held.)
With CV19 is everyone (panel + parties) really going to all get together vs Zoom/online conferencing?

Who knows? If Trump gets reelected, he may have a bunch of openings on CA9 to fill. LOL! (Nice knowing ya, wolfwood!)
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  #1153  
Old 06-29-2020, 9:17 PM
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With CV19 is everyone (panel + parties) really going to all get together vs Zoom/online conferencing?
Tough to say. Probably depends on how long this environment lasts.

But for the time being, the court has shown no interest in conducting en banc arguments via video conference, and has dispensed with argument entirely in favor of deciding the cases on the papers.
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Old 06-29-2020, 9:46 PM
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~12 weeks to go!

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  #1155  
Old 06-29-2020, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
With CV19 is everyone (panel + parties) really going to all get together vs Zoom/online conferencing?

Who knows? If Trump gets reelected, he may have a bunch of openings on CA9 to fill. LOL! (Nice knowing ya, wolfwood!)

Dulcē et decōrum est prō patriā mōrī
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  #1156  
Old 07-02-2020, 5:14 AM
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So...

now that the case is going forward what are the chances that Hawaii will pull a New York? As in change the law just enough to try to moot the case?

Because it's hard to see what plausible gyration the 9th could pull at this point to save the existing law. They've argued themselves into a corner.
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Old 07-02-2020, 5:46 AM
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So...

now that the case is going forward what are the chances that Hawaii will pull a New York? As in change the law just enough to try to moot the case?

Because it's hard to see what plausible gyration the 9th could pull at this point to save the existing law. They've argued themselves into a corner.
Do not underestimate the ability of the ninth circuit to get the outcome they desire. Given the reluctance of SCOTUS to rule on 2A cases they can pretty much put up any twisted argument that they want.
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Old 07-02-2020, 9:17 AM
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abinsinia abinsinia is offline
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I think they will just conclude that DC v. Heller protects arms in the home , and that's the extent of the right etc. etc.. You can bear arms, in your home.
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