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  #1  
Old 08-06-2019, 10:15 PM
NetworkSkullRipper NetworkSkullRipper is offline
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Question Adjusting OAL for different bullet shape with no load data

I have been using RMR 124gr FMJ RN bullets along with Alliant Sport Pistol to reload 9mm rounds. I got the load data from Alliant's website and I'm basically using 4.3gr and an OAL of 1.125"(+/- 0.003").

I wanted to try RMR 124gr FMJ TC, but there is not load data for TC vs RN.
In theory, having the same bullet weight and same case capacity I should be able to use the same powder charge safely, right?

I measured the length of the bullets and the RN is 0.592" long while the TC is 0.557" long.
Is it correct (and safe) to shorten my OAL in 0.035" in order to have the same case capacity?
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2019, 3:42 AM
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Unless you are at or near max powder charge, I don't think I would worry about it as long as it cycles in the gun you use.
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Old 08-11-2019, 2:22 PM
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using go / no go al gages - don't count on them . They are for one shape bullet .
I think you know that but others reading this might not .
Shortening the oil means less space for powder . Less space means more pressure .
I / we so it does not matter much .
But , some chambers want the bullet to fully seat , other wise the bullet will hit the side of
chamber and scrape copper or lead off .
i / we do the OAL AND STAY WITH IT . We generally are on low to mid powder charge - so
pressure is not as high as others who go to max powder or close to it .
When I was hunting I stuck with store bought core lock [ for rifles ] and hard ball [ FMJ ]
for the 45 ACP and the 50 AE .
One thing you will find is the less pressure , the easier it is to clean barrels and gas chambers
Plated bullets are worst the jacketed ones . There are going to be posts saying - wrong - but
try and make up your own mind .
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Old 08-11-2019, 4:43 PM
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When I’m changing to a different bullet in the same wight I do as you did and measure them and adjust my oal to maintain the same internal volume. If it still cycles in your gun you should be fine.
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2019, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
using go / no go al gages - don't count on them . They are for one shape bullet .
I think you know that but others reading this might not .
Shortening the oil means less space for powder . Less space means more pressure .
I / we so it does not matter much .
But , some chambers want the bullet to fully seat , other wise the bullet will hit the side of
chamber and scrape copper or lead off .
i / we do the OAL AND STAY WITH IT . We generally are on low to mid powder charge - so
pressure is not as high as others who go to max powder or close to it .
When I was hunting I stuck with store bought core lock [ for rifles ] and hard ball [ FMJ ]
for the 45 ACP and the 50 AE .
One thing you will find is the less pressure , the easier it is to clean barrels and gas chambers
Plated bullets are worst the jacketed ones . There are going to be posts saying - wrong - but
try and make up your own mind .
Not if the bullet is that same amount shorter.

What gas chamber?
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2019, 6:23 AM
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All my semi autos have gas chambers . I only own 3 revolvers .
A shorter bullet does not matter as much in a revolver as in a semi .
plated and coated - more stuff in gas chamber if shorter .
My 22 lr semi's really build up stuff , but they are plated / painted . I don't use
non plated / painted in the 22's . Way too easy to go thru 300 rounds when more
than one shooter .
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Old 08-12-2019, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkSkullRipper View Post
I have been using RMR 124gr FMJ RN bullets along with Alliant Sport Pistol to reload 9mm rounds. I got the load data from Alliant's website and I'm basically using 4.3gr and an OAL of 1.125"(+/- 0.003").

I wanted to try RMR 124gr FMJ TC, but there is not load data for TC vs RN.
In theory, having the same bullet weight and same case capacity I should be able to use the same powder charge safely, right?

I measured the length of the bullets and the RN is 0.592" long while the TC is 0.557" long.
Is it correct (and safe) to shorten my OAL in 0.035" in order to have the same case capacity?
With the same bullet weight and construction, if you seat them to the same depth in the case (NOT overall length), you are leaving the same size case capacity and are probably OK.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
All my semi autos have gas chambers . I only own 3 revolvers .
A shorter bullet does not matter as much in a revolver as in a semi .
plated and coated - more stuff in gas chamber if shorter .
My 22 lr semi's really build up stuff , but they are plated / painted . I don't use
non plated / painted in the 22's . Way too easy to go thru 300 rounds when more
than one shooter .
Funny. Most of my semi pistols are blowback.

How does higher pressure gunk anything up?
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2019, 2:00 PM
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TAKE ONE OF YOUR CARTRIDGES AND RUB ON CEMENT . NOW ADD MORE
PRESSURE - THAT IS THE INSIDE OF BARREL . [ SORRY CAP LOCK IS STUCK ]
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Old 08-12-2019, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
TAKE ONE OF YOUR CARTRIDGES AND RUB ON CEMENT . NOW ADD MORE
PRESSURE - THAT IS THE INSIDE OF BARREL . [ SORRY CAP LOCK IS STUCK ]
The casing is a gasket. See all that black schmutz down the side of the case in a low pressure load?

Higher pressure results in a good seal and more complete combustion.

22's are just dirty, period.

But chances are we're talking about a 9mm blowback pistol. There's no gas ports. There's a gas relief for blown primers or gas which makes it past the "gasket".
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Old 08-13-2019, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
With the same bullet weight and construction, if you seat them to the same depth in the case (NOT overall length), you are leaving the same size case capacity and are probably OK.
That is the case, both are FMJs from the same manufacturer with the only difference being the shape.
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Old 08-13-2019, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
The casing is a gasket. See all that black schmutz down the side of the case in a low pressure load?

Higher pressure results in a good seal and more complete combustion.

22's are just dirty, period.

But chances are we're talking about a 9mm blowback pistol. There's no gas ports. There's a gas relief for blown primers or gas which makes it past the "gasket".
Yes. These are all for 9mm blowback semis.

My intention is to keep the same amount of pressure.
But if I seat it for the same OAL, being the bullet shorter, the case capacity will go up making the pressure for the same powder charge drop.
Messing with the powder charge seems to be way more complicated than changing the seating depth to keep the case capacity constant.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkSkullRipper View Post
Yes. These are all for 9mm blowback semis.

My intention is to keep the same amount of pressure.
But if I seat it for the same OAL, being the bullet shorter, the case capacity will go up making the pressure for the same powder charge drop.
Messing with the powder charge seems to be way more complicated than changing the seating depth to keep the case capacity constant.
"Messing" with powder charge isn't complicated.

That said, I think you're on a suitable path. See how they function in your firearm before making a large batch. Include a "plunk test".

Caveat: This assumes you aren't at "max" with the current bullet/powder combo. In that case, I'd reduce and work back up providing function was met with reduced.
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Old 08-13-2019, 3:15 PM
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It is all doable, the part that is impossible for a reloader to understand is the contact point between the bullet and the bullet. The diameter at the lands does not change. If the reloader was able to determine the distance from the bolt face to the beginning of the rifling he can (should be able) to measure the distance for any bullet.

I use transfers, I transfer the dimension from the chamber to the seating die.

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Old 08-13-2019, 3:25 PM
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How many tensions though?
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Old 08-13-2019, 4:09 PM
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How many tensions though?
None because tensions can't be measured and therefore do not exist.
That which can not be quantified using it's own name as the unit of measurement is not a real thing in his mind.

The only real things that exist in his mind are ounces, pounds, quarts, gallons, inches or feet and other subunits thereof.
All other things do not exist because their names are not also measurement units.

So there are no such things as tension, compression, weight, volume or length.
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Old 08-13-2019, 4:45 PM
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Unless you are running loads at the absolute minimum or maximum pressure, it won't make enough difference to notice.

Adjust the COAL to make the particular bullet feed 100%.
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  #18  
Old 08-13-2019, 6:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
None because tensions can't be measured and therefore do not exist.
That which can not be quantified using it's own name as the unit of measurement is not a real thing in his mind.

The only real things that exist in his mind are ounces, pounds, quarts, gallons, inches or feet and other subunits thereof.
All other things do not exist because their names are not also measurement units.

So there are no such things as tension, compression, weight, volume or length.
The correct answer is 3 (but that's metric).

I've never measured off the lands in pistol....but I shoot a lot of revolvers where cylinder length becomes the dictator of max oal albeit I can make loads which fit the Ruger that the Marlin lever won't digest. Not sure how you'd get a "transfer" out of the cylinder if it contacted the lands. In automagics, magazine becomes the limiter.
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Old 08-17-2019, 2:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkSkullRipper View Post
I measured the length of the bullets and the RN is 0.592" long while the TC is 0.557" long.
Is it correct (and safe) to shorten my OAL in 0.035" in order to have the same case capacity?
Using those exact bullets, that is what I do to determine my new OAL.

My OAL for the RN is 1.149", when loading the FN I adjust my seating die for a OAL of 1.114
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Old 08-18-2019, 4:55 PM
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I have a similar concern loading a 250 grain fn projectile with no load data, anyone here mess with that for 45 acp?
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Old 08-18-2019, 6:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelholder View Post
I have a similar concern loading a 250 grain fn projectile with no load data, anyone here mess with that for 45 acp?
Code:
Cartridge          : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .452, 250, LYM LFN 454190
Useable Case Capaci: 14.570 grain H2O = 0.946 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.275 inch = 32.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 19000 psi, or 131 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

1 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123                         103.0     13.8     0.90    1008    76.9    17556    5458   0.688
Vihtavuori N105                    101.4     10.7     0.69     961    79.8    19000    4249   0.675  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.7                       75.9     10.9     0.71     943    72.4    19000    3974   0.685  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Enforcer                    98.2     13.5     0.87     941    61.8    19000    4077   0.681  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400                        96.1     12.3     0.79     937    61.9    19000    3958   0.686  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant POWER PISTOL                74.8      8.0     0.52     933    83.1    19000    3810   0.690  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N38                     91.2     10.0     0.65     926    76.7    19000    3708   0.689  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT                    94.9     10.4     0.67     923    71.1    19000    3770   0.695  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9                       83.5     11.9     0.77     921    65.0    19000    3737   0.687  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N37                     76.8      8.0     0.52     918    92.0    19000    3470   0.694  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant HERCO                       84.7      7.1     0.46     916    95.5    19000    3440   0.707  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N350                     79.7      7.8     0.51     914    92.4    19000    3398   0.691  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100                       99.6     13.8     0.90     910    56.6    19000    3674   0.688  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE                      74.4      6.4     0.42     908    98.0    19000    3258   0.708  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5                       56.1      7.8     0.50     907    86.5    19000    3433   0.696  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6                        61.3      8.1     0.53     903    89.1    19000    3336   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot                    57.8      7.8     0.51     900    91.2    19000    3277   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 540                      56.4      7.8     0.51     900    91.5    19000    3267   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot True Blue                   57.3      7.8     0.51     900    91.4    19000    3268   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Silhouette                  60.7      7.1     0.46     897    96.0    19000    3160   0.700  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WAP                      60.9      7.1     0.46     897    95.7    19000    3163   0.700  ! Near Maximum !
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Code:
Cartridge          : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .452, 250, LYM LFN 454190
Useable Case Capaci: 14.570 grain H2O = 0.946 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.275 inch = 32.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 19000 psi, or 131 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

1 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123                         103.0     13.8     0.90    1008    76.9    17556    5458   0.688
Vihtavuori N105                    101.4     10.7     0.69     961    79.8    19000    4249   0.675  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.7                       75.9     10.9     0.71     943    72.4    19000    3974   0.685  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Enforcer                    98.2     13.5     0.87     941    61.8    19000    4077   0.681  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400                        96.1     12.3     0.79     937    61.9    19000    3958   0.686  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant POWER PISTOL                74.8      8.0     0.52     933    83.1    19000    3810   0.690  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N38                     91.2     10.0     0.65     926    76.7    19000    3708   0.689  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT                    94.9     10.4     0.67     923    71.1    19000    3770   0.695  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9                       83.5     11.9     0.77     921    65.0    19000    3737   0.687  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N37                     76.8      8.0     0.52     918    92.0    19000    3470   0.694  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant HERCO                       84.7      7.1     0.46     916    95.5    19000    3440   0.707  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N350                     79.7      7.8     0.51     914    92.4    19000    3398   0.691  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100                       99.6     13.8     0.90     910    56.6    19000    3674   0.688  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE                      74.4      6.4     0.42     908    98.0    19000    3258   0.708  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5                       56.1      7.8     0.50     907    86.5    19000    3433   0.696  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6                        61.3      8.1     0.53     903    89.1    19000    3336   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot                    57.8      7.8     0.51     900    91.2    19000    3277   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 540                      56.4      7.8     0.51     900    91.5    19000    3267   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot True Blue                   57.3      7.8     0.51     900    91.4    19000    3268   0.699  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Silhouette                  60.7      7.1     0.46     897    96.0    19000    3160   0.700  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WAP                      60.9      7.1     0.46     897    95.7    19000    3163   0.700  ! Near Maximum !
Perfect thanks!
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
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Perfect thanks!
Herco, Unique or WAP would be my 3 powders of choice to try based on their case fill and burn percentage.
Stay away from powders that don't burn beyond about 90% as they tend to leave the barrel dirtier.
Herco really looks like the winner with 85% case fill.
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Old 08-19-2019, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Herco, Unique or WAP would be my 3 powders of choice to try based on their case fill and burn percentage.
Stay away from powders that don't burn beyond about 90% as they tend to leave the barrel dirtier.
Herco really looks like the winner with 85% case fill.
Out of that list I only have power pistol, so I guess that will have to do for now, where is that guide from? By chance do you have something like that for a golden saber in 185g? Thanks.
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WTB 3rd Gen SW also looking for a 22 pistol with 6" bbl or longer
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  #25  
Old 08-19-2019, 4:33 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelholder View Post
Out of that list I only have power pistol, so I guess that will have to do for now, where is that guide from? By chance do you have something like that for a golden saber in 185g? Thanks.
It's NOT tested reloading data.
It's a computer simulation of what powders would make what velocities at a set pressure.

I can run the simulation for any bullet and any chambering and any powder that I have in my libraries.

What OAL do you use for the 185?

Here is simulation of power pistol under a Speer 185 gold dot at 1.200" OAL,
I do not have the 185 golden sabre in my bullet library.
You need to build your own loads, but this gives you an idea what pressure you are getting for a given velocity.
The computer model can be tuned to match a specific gun and then the simulations become very realistic.

Code:
Cartridge          : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .451, 185, Speer HP GD 4470
Useable Case Capaci: 15.859 grain H2O = 1.030 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.200 inch = 30.48 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder             : Alliant POWER PISTOL

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.111% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-11.1   69     8.00    959     378   14129   3299     70.1    0.684
-10.0   70     8.10    970     386   14491   3364     70.7    0.676
-08.9   71     8.20    981     395   14861   3429     71.3    0.668
-07.8   72     8.30    992     404   15238   3494     71.9    0.660
-06.7   72     8.40   1003     414   15624   3559     72.4    0.653
-05.6   73     8.50   1015     423   16017   3625     73.0    0.645
-04.4   74     8.60   1026     432   16419   3691     73.5    0.638
-03.3   75     8.70   1037     442   16829   3757     74.1    0.631
-02.2   76     8.80   1048     451   17247   3823     74.6    0.624
-01.1   77     8.90   1059     461   17674   3890     75.2    0.617
+00.0   78     9.00   1070     471   18109   3956     75.7    0.610  ! Near Maximum !
+01.1   78     9.10   1082     481   18553   4023     76.2    0.603  ! Near Maximum !
+02.2   79     9.20   1093     491   19006   4089     76.8    0.596  ! Near Maximum !
+03.3   80     9.30   1104     501   19469   4156     77.3    0.589  ! Near Maximum !
+04.4   81     9.40   1115     511   19940   4223     77.8    0.582  ! Near Maximum !
+05.6   82     9.50   1126     521   20421   4290     78.3    0.576  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     78     9.00   1141     535   21136   4318     83.6    0.566  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     78     9.00    992     404   15271   3516     66.6    0.659
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  #26  
Old 08-19-2019, 4:45 PM
steelholder steelholder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
It's NOT tested reloading data.
It's a computer simulation of what powders would make what velocities at a set pressure.

I can run the simulation for any bullet and any chambering and any powder that I have in my libraries.

What OAL do you use for the 185?

Here is simulation of power pistol under a Speer 185 gold dot at 1.200" OAL,
I do not have the 185 golden sabre in my bullet library.
You need to build your own loads, but this gives you an idea what pressure you are getting for a given velocity.
The computer model can be tuned to match a specific gun and then the simulations become very realistic.

Code:
Cartridge          : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .451, 185, Speer HP GD 4470
Useable Case Capaci: 15.859 grain H2O = 1.030 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.200 inch = 30.48 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder             : Alliant POWER PISTOL

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.111% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-11.1   69     8.00    959     378   14129   3299     70.1    0.684
-10.0   70     8.10    970     386   14491   3364     70.7    0.676
-08.9   71     8.20    981     395   14861   3429     71.3    0.668
-07.8   72     8.30    992     404   15238   3494     71.9    0.660
-06.7   72     8.40   1003     414   15624   3559     72.4    0.653
-05.6   73     8.50   1015     423   16017   3625     73.0    0.645
-04.4   74     8.60   1026     432   16419   3691     73.5    0.638
-03.3   75     8.70   1037     442   16829   3757     74.1    0.631
-02.2   76     8.80   1048     451   17247   3823     74.6    0.624
-01.1   77     8.90   1059     461   17674   3890     75.2    0.617
+00.0   78     9.00   1070     471   18109   3956     75.7    0.610  ! Near Maximum !
+01.1   78     9.10   1082     481   18553   4023     76.2    0.603  ! Near Maximum !
+02.2   79     9.20   1093     491   19006   4089     76.8    0.596  ! Near Maximum !
+03.3   80     9.30   1104     501   19469   4156     77.3    0.589  ! Near Maximum !
+04.4   81     9.40   1115     511   19940   4223     77.8    0.582  ! Near Maximum !
+05.6   82     9.50   1126     521   20421   4290     78.3    0.576  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     78     9.00   1141     535   21136   4318     83.6    0.566  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     78     9.00    992     404   15271   3516     66.6    0.659
thanks looks very handy, I think ive heard of this program, whats it called and how much?
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WTB 3rd Gen SW also looking for a 22 pistol with 6" bbl or longer
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  #27  
Old 08-19-2019, 5:05 PM
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Fjold Fjold is offline
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