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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:40 AM
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Default CA Compliant AR Dangerous?

Specifically for home defense.

Having not registering my AR as an AW I'm left with a fixed mag option. On principal I can't go featureless, stupid, yes but if I want to go that route I would just get another rifle. Currently I have an AR Maglock installed. I know training is everything but I just can't get a mag change to be natural. Pulling the rear pin AND remembering the bolt must be forward to do so is the most awkward situation and doing it under stress seems unlikely for me.

The juggernaut system looks interesting but still has the same issue that the bolt must be forward. My friend suggested the Maglatch FNGR as an option to keep the gun in essentially an illegal state which could be made compliant in seconds but that is just asking for some attorney to twist that every which way.

I consider myself having above average gun handling skills and I shoot 3-4 times a month but by no means am I an "operator". I'm sure there are some that could manipulate these functions in a panic but I doubt it's common.

As the title says, is this a dangerous situation? Has anyone ever been injured or killed because they could't perform a mag change? I'm sure some are thinking that a scenario where multiple attackers are coming in your home is unlikely but my feeling is plan and prepare for the worst to get the best possible outcome.

Currently I keep a 1911 at the bedside and an 870 with 8+1 of #00 nearby, seems perfectly adequate. So what is the AR's place beside the fact there are just plain fun, SHTF?
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:49 AM
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IMHO, I would never use a mag locked 10 round rifle for HD. Between 10 round limit and a complex change process, for me, featureless was the way to go. Thordson stock was the answer for me, slight grip angle difference and I get to keep handling and functionality.
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:59 AM
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Chances are if you have to perform a mag change during a home defense situation, the S**t must have really hit the fan. You're obviously already in a dangerous situation and if there was a situation in which you had to make a mag change, good luck to you. I went featureless solely for the mag change ability as I don't find it comfortable/natural with a mag lock.

Everyone's situation is different and for me, an AR isn't my first choice for home defense (YMMV). If it were, I would go featureless, even though I would say most home defense situations would not warrant a mag change.
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:06 AM
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Try to clear a double feed and you'll answer your own question.
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:13 AM
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"Currently I keep a 1911 at the bedside and an 870 with 8+1 of #00 nearby, seems perfectly adequate".

IMO, more than adequate.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
Specifically for home defense.

Having not registering my AR as an AW I'm left with a fixed mag option. On principal I can't go featureless, stupid, yes but if I want to go that route I would just get another rifle. Currently I have an AR Maglock installed. I know training is everything but I just can't get a mag change to be natural. Pulling the rear pin AND remembering the bolt must be forward to do so is the most awkward situation and doing it under stress seems unlikely for me.

The juggernaut system looks interesting but still has the same issue that the bolt must be forward. My friend suggested the Maglatch FNGR as an option to keep the gun in essentially an illegal state which could be made compliant in seconds but that is just asking for some attorney to twist that every which way.

I consider myself having above average gun handling skills and I shoot 3-4 times a month but by no means am I an "operator". I'm sure there are some that could manipulate these functions in a panic but I doubt it's common.

As the title says, is this a dangerous situation? Has anyone ever been injured or killed because they could't perform a mag change? I'm sure some are thinking that a scenario where multiple attackers are coming in your home is unlikely but my feeling is plan and prepare for the worst to get the best possible outcome.

Currently I keep a 1911 at the bedside and an 870 with 8+1 of #00 nearby, seems perfectly adequate. So what is the AR's place beside the fact there are just plain fun, SHTF?
Juggernaut doesn't have a working bolt catch. The Maglatch can't be removed until the fngr part is removed. Which requires breaking the action.

The point being that any fixed mag option is strictly a range gun.
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:58 AM
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Yup, just hold your nose and get a featureless so you can use those freedom week 30's. Or get a Mini-14 to use those freedom week 20's.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Try to clear a double feed and you'll answer your own question.
This. Far too many potential problems arise with the use of a mag-locked firearm to make it a sensible option for self defense. Most malfunctions in a semi auto require removal of the magazine to clear. A mag-locked weapon is at an inherent disadvantage in that regard.
My recommendation is always to go featureless, as you can operate the weapon as intended. Function takes precedence over form, ESPECIALLY if it's a weapon that you may use in a life-or-death situation. However, since you seem to have an aversion to featureless rifles, maybe your handgun and shotgun should be your primary options.

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  #9  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:21 AM
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Another vote for featureless, that's what I did. It may not look pretty, but I went Thordsen and I think it feels and shoot good. I imagine the great majority of the time, you'd probably be okay with just the one 10 round mag in most HD situations, but it would really suck to run into a situation where it was not enough and have to try to reload. Or like others said, clearing malfunctions.
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
Specifically for home defense.

Having not registering my AR as an AW I'm left with a fixed mag option. On principal I can't go featureless, stupid, yes but if I want to go that route I would just get another rifle. Currently I have an AR Maglock installed. I know training is everything but I just can't get a mag change to be natural. Pulling the rear pin AND remembering the bolt must be forward to do so is the most awkward situation and doing it under stress seems unlikely for me.

The juggernaut system looks interesting but still has the same issue that the bolt must be forward. My friend suggested the Maglatch FNGR as an option to keep the gun in essentially an illegal state which could be made compliant in seconds but that is just asking for some attorney to twist that every which way.

I consider myself having above average gun handling skills and I shoot 3-4 times a month but by no means am I an "operator". I'm sure there are some that could manipulate these functions in a panic but I doubt it's common.

As the title says, is this a dangerous situation? Has anyone ever been injured or killed because they could't perform a mag change? I'm sure some are thinking that a scenario where multiple attackers are coming in your home is unlikely but my feeling is plan and prepare for the worst to get the best possible outcome.

Currently I keep a 1911 at the bedside and an 870 with 8+1 of #00 nearby, seems perfectly adequate. So what is the AR's place beside the fact there are just plain fun, SHTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldsnet View Post
IMHO, I would never use a mag locked 10 round rifle for HD. Between 10 round limit and a complex change process, for me, featureless was the way to go. Thordson stock was the answer for me, slight grip angle difference and I get to keep handling and functionality.
This^^^

Go featureless, get rid of the 1911 and get a Glock, DONE!
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARDude View Post
Juggernaut doesn't have a working bolt catch. The Maglatch can't be removed until the fngr part is removed. Which requires breaking the action.

The point being that any fixed mag option is strictly a range gun.
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Try to clear a double feed and you'll answer your own question.
So much this.

Check out the link at the specific time. Juggernaut Tactical shows you how to clear a malfunction on their official YouTube channel.

Specifically, pay attention to how they essentially tell you that two people are required to clear a malfunction on their own YouTube tutorial on how to clear one with their system. I actually really like the Juggernaut Tactical system conceptually, and I hope that companies like them keep innovating. But I've run into freaking epic feeding issues with a Compmag maglocked setup at the range and so far I think featureless is the better way to go.

https://youtu.be/yRmqsyAmNcs?t=94
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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OP

I also went fixed mag. I use the ARMagloc gen 2 with Kingpin. Yeah there is another "keystroke" with fixed mag but this set up does keep forward bolt release and the bolt can be back (it stays back on last round fired) to reload. Double feed can be cleared with no trauma

The Kingpin I hit with my R thumb and simultaneously the mag release with R finger. You can either return upper to lower and then insert mag or with it open then close upper. There is some debate on inserting a mag with the upper closed but not here to jump in that debate

While I do keep all my guns loaded, the AR is not the first, or second, gun I go to for HD...but is ready should I exhaust several other guns in a holly shiat situation. At that point any "gun law" is a moot point. I will be tried by a jury of 12 vs being carried by 6 pallbearers
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:42 AM
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Ca compliant mag locks have been and will continue to be dangerous....
If there is any kind of malfunction the normal procedure to clear cannot be used....
And if ever needed changing a magazine when needed will be that much more difficult and most likely life threatening
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TAS View Post
Chances are if you have to perform a mag change during a home defense situation, the S**t must have really hit the fan.
Mag release buttons work great. Grip fins and Thordo FRS-15's work fine.

So do Panther Martin #4's.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:05 AM
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Featurless is the only way to go for defense. I see more malfunctions that cannot be fixed by Immediate Action than I would ever consider acceptable. I am on the range 4-8 hours a day 4 days a week and CA compliant rifles aren’t worth a thing for safety or reliability.
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  #16  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:09 AM
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No way I would use mag locked 2.0 AR for HD.

Try the Sparrow grip (feels great!), pin the stock, install brake or thread protector.

Besides a free state manual of arms, another Featureless bonus: large cap mags.
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:22 AM
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If you wanna have your AR with a maglock, use it as a range toy. The other HD options you have sound sufficient. If your dead set that the AR is for HD, choose one of the many featureless options out there. Iím sure you can find one that will work for you.


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  #18  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:43 AM
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Featureless and dont look back. Fixed mag is for wallhangers like AR pistols. Plenty of featureless options. I prefer to simply fix a standard stock, use a grip with a built in fin and thumb rest and a thread protector and call it a day. A lot of newbs are overthinking it. Its really not that complicated despite the State's efforts to make it so.
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:31 PM
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As others have said.. AR may not be a good choice for home defense unless you have some land. I like a pistol with a light and a shotty with a light as well. If you are reconsidering going featureless .. try a fin grip.. you still have very good control of the rifle
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2019, 2:29 PM
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Quite a few folks keep revolvers for HD. Iíll bet that reloading said revolvers under the stress of a home invasion would be interesting, and that assumes that said homeowners have a speedloader or two on their person. My guess is that for a lot of people, they have whatís in the revolver and thatís it.

I do know that if a gunfight is about to happen, and I have a choice between a revolver and a fixed mag AR, Iíll take the AR. Thatís not a criticism of revolvers for HD, since revolvers actually have many good points. However, everyone is pointing out the limitations of fixed mag ARs when the bullets start flying. If the bullets start flying, 10 rounds of 223 SP/HPs in an easier-to-shoot rifle config easily outclasses any (harder to shoot)(lower powered) handgun.

If the rifle malfunctions, you arenít clearing it. Best to have a quality rifle with quality magazines holding quality ammo that all have been verified as working together.

If you arenít able to quickly and reliably change mags on your fixed mag rifle, best to proceed with the assumption that youíll have whatís in the mag and thatís it.

Will 10 rounds be enough? I doubt anyone can guarantee that it will, in all circumstances. OTOH, unless you are fighting off a VDV platoon, Iíd imagine that most HD shootings wonít require 10 rifle rounds.

Ultimately, if you lack confidence in a particular HD setup...use something else.

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  #21  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:11 PM
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If you don't like hitting mag release buttons, featureless still makes more sense. Might not need to if you have 30, 40, 60 rounds on tap.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifle ronin View Post
This^^^

Go featureless, get rid of the 1911 and get a Glock, DONE!
"Get rid of that Nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock" Classic!

Past the first box of ammo my 1911 has never had failures. My only experience with a Glock was not good. I'm sure they are fine but my 17 was a disaster and I got rid of it. I'm sure they are fine but not only was mine unreliable I did not shoot it well, or it did not shoot well, but I've never had issues with any other pistols. I did have a Beretta 92 years ago that I didn't shoot accurately but I'm sure that was my inexperience, it was reliable as well. Between my bad experience and the trigger the Glock is not for me, but power on with yours!
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufflers View Post
If you don't like hitting mag release buttons, featureless still makes more sense. Might not need to if you have 30, 40, 60 rounds on tap.
Great point!
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Quite a few folks keep revolvers for HD.
There is always one available for my wife. She shoots quite well but does not train often and in a SD situation she is conditioned to know that there is only to pull the trigger and nothing else. She would be at a loss to clear a malfunction with a semi auto in a panic.
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Old 11-07-2019, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
... On principal I can't go featureless, ...
Nothing wrong with principles, but standing by your principles has never been easy nor convenient. So either stick with your principles and accept it, or reevaluate what's really important.

Personally I've never associated a pistol grip with a principle.
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:37 PM
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You could always have two guns so you don't need to worry about reloading.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
Nothing wrong with principles, but standing by your principles has never been easy nor convenient. So either stick with your principles and accept it, or reevaluate what's really important.

Personally I've never associated a pistol grip with a principle.
I only meant it would be like retrofitting a cool car to be smog legal. I would just get a purpose built rifle.
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
I only meant it would be like retrofitting a cool car to be smog legal. I would just get a purpose built rifle.
Nah, your cool car doesn't have a mag release? That's a muscle car body with a 1.6 liter Honda motor (no turbo and a it's almost on empty).
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2019, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Featurless is the only way to go for defense.

Agreed. I'd still prefer having an AR as a defensive tool over a Mini, Saiga .223, Ruger PC Carbine, etc.
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Old 11-07-2019, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufflers View Post
If you don't like hitting mag release buttons, featureless still makes more sense. Might not need to if you have 30, 40, 60 rounds on tap.
This is spot on for HD
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  #31  
Old 11-07-2019, 7:17 PM
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I agree with triplestack3ís point on having a second gun. Consider doing a ďNew YorkĒ reload by switching to a handgun for the hopefully rare situation where 10 rounds from your AR does not resolve the situation
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  #32  
Old 11-07-2019, 7:40 PM
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I can't stand featureless AR's, but like you I live in CA, sooo... What I've done is put BB2's on half of them, then made the other half featureless. I used the featureless rifles here in CA with standard cap magazines, and the other ones for when I go out of state, where they are transformed to standard mag releases anyway. Wha'ts crazy is when I am out of state with regular releases, that's when I use my 10 rounders, so I can bring them back and not have to worry about the whole importing thing. That's the place of my AR's. None are actually used for home defense purposes. I actually prefer an optic outfitted M1 Carbine for that. Along with a Mossberg 590 and a Beretta M9A1.
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Old 11-07-2019, 8:50 PM
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If you’re defending yourself with your AR, and you run dry, but still need more rounds downrange... NY reload.

Jeez man, featureless is the way to play - PC Carbine just for the fun sticks!
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:51 PM
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Just incase it hasn't been mentioned yet already, featureless AR-15.
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  #35  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:22 PM
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Why do people care so much about how their gun looks when considering it for personal defense? I don't care how ugly or stupid my gun or AR looks so long as it can shoot lead at my intended target and do so quickly and reliably. Featureless is a no brainer.
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  #36  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Yup, just hold your nose and get a featureless so you can use those freedom week 30's. Or get a Mini-14 to use those freedom week 20's.
I can slap my freedom week D-60 in my Tavor SAR BBRAW, if that isn't enough I got other problems.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:05 PM
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Yes. It's foolish and dangerous. Get a gun that operates like a brick outhouse and then take classes.
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  #38  
Old 11-08-2019, 5:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
"Get rid of that Nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock" Classic!

Past the first box of ammo my 1911 has never had failures. My only experience with a Glock was not good. I'm sure they are fine but my 17 was a disaster and I got rid of it. I'm sure they are fine but not only was mine unreliable I did not shoot it well, or it did not shoot well, but I've never had issues with any other pistols. I did have a Beretta 92 years ago that I didn't shoot accurately but I'm sure that was my inexperience, it was reliable as well. Between my bad experience and the trigger the Glock is not for me, but power on with yours!
I am sure the home invaders will wait for you to clear your AR jam, and click the safety off your 1911.
__________________
I dreamed of owning a (insert off roster gun here)...

Oh yeah....then the earth splits open with me on one side and the (off roster gun) on the other. Then appeared a large red-glowing pit with gavin newscum, diane frankenstein and governor "brown the drain" at the bottom of it, waving their pitchforks at me.
(Non caps intended)

Last edited by Rifle ronin; 11-08-2019 at 6:20 AM..
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  #39  
Old 11-08-2019, 6:06 AM
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crufflers crufflers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshill View Post
I can slap my freedom week D-60 in my Tavor SAR BBRAW, if that isn't enough I got other problems.
I thought that was unpossible, like a gun in a gun free zone.
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  #40  
Old 11-08-2019, 7:36 AM
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Sparrow Dynamics Sparrow Dynamics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny1 View Post
I only meant it would be like retrofitting a cool car to be smog legal. I would just get a purpose built rifle.
I know what you mean, but here is food for thought.

This is a purpose built rifle.
Lightweight, very reliable,CA legal, inexpensive, for self defense.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3qBsl9g...d=w3mwhc4ub0ut
and this one that is a little fancier...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm4PfLFH...d=g2xqi7k3ac13

A maglocked rifle in CA is also purpose built..... to favor looks instead of mag capacity and mag functionality. The point is, there are pros and cons to featureless and maglock, and the weight of those pros and cons can only be determined by the ďpurposeĒ of your build. Hope that helps!
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