Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > 2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-09-2019, 2:14 PM
wolfwood's Avatar
wolfwood wolfwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Baird v. Becerra (USDC Eastern District of CA)

new open carry case filed in CA

Interesting it is arguing that the sheriff could but refuses to issue open carry permits.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4056...omplaint-Filed
__________________
Please add my business facebook page if you are interested in my litigation
https://www.facebook.com/ABeckLaw/

Last edited by wolfwood; 04-09-2019 at 3:22 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-09-2019, 3:29 PM
TruOil TruOil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 639
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Interesting choice of counties, since Shasta is virtually shall issue CCW and Siskiyou isn't far off of that. Both sheriffs are pro-2A, except, I guess, when it comes to open carry. Which is strange since a lot of each county is national forest where open carry is legal without a license. It really pushes some buttons after Peruta, and may result in an interesting trial court decision since Nichols' case is stayed for the foreseeable future. Then again, an open carry license, allowing carry in incorporated areas, is virtually useless because of the GFSZA.

Let us know when it is assigned to a judge so we can see who it is. The EDCal, being in Sacramento, has both very liberal and conservative judges.

Last edited by TruOil; 04-09-2019 at 3:32 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-09-2019, 5:34 PM
sfpcservice's Avatar
sfpcservice sfpcservice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Suisun City
Posts: 1,650
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Yeah, how does that "open carry is legal in a national Forest" thing work if you're drive ng on a Forest road or just happen to need to walk across a road to get from one middle of the woods to the other...?
__________________
http://theresedoksheim.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gridlock.jpg

Voting "Yes" on a California bond measure is like giving a degenerate gambler more money because he says he has the game figured out....

John 14:6
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-10-2019, 7:32 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,607
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Oh no, not one of these again. Another chip off of the ol' Charles Nichols block. Granted, this guy at least hired attorneys, but I've never heard of them in connection with 2nd Amendment civil rights litigation in California.

Here are some of the glaring legal issues I noticed right off the bat:

- Only AG Becerra is a named defendant, yet the AG's office has no involvement in making a determination on someone's "good cause" statement. No individual sheriffs are named.

- Plaintiffs are residents of Siskiyou and Shasta county, both of which have "shall issue" CCW policies at the moment. Not to mention 2A friendly sheriffs.

- Nothing in the complaint alleges Plaintiffs even tried applying for, and were denied, an open carry license. Without this, how do we know there is even a dispute ripe for adjudication?

- There is no state-mandated form to use for open carry license applications, but that doesn’t mean you can’t apply for one. Write a letter ... something, anything to show that there is actually a no-issue policy in place.

Upon further research, I found this web page relating to one of the plaintiffs, Mark Baird: State of Jefferson leader to file lawsuit blocking CA open carry law. I do have a couple of issues with this author's statements:

Quote:
Even if the judge rules against the TRO/PI, it can be appealed, and TRO/PI lawsuits are expedited and would jump ahead of other lawsuits currently challenging the bans on open carry.
No, this is not true at all. There are already open AND concealed carry challenges pending before the Ninth Circuit (in addition to Young v. Hawaii, Michel & Associates just recently filed Livingston v. Ballard in Hawaii). This lawsuit does not get to "jump ahead".

Quote:
Attorneys are expensive and the color of justice is green. Baird stated he has written a sizable check already, but it will likely cost about $25,000. It is an “inexpensive” case as far as federal lawsuits go, but he can use all the help he can get.
No, please don't. In order to handle this type of case at the appropriate level of competence, a federal lawsuit and appeal should cost a whole lot more than this. Think about it, for an average attorney charging $400 per hour, this is only going to pay for 62.5 hours of their time. That just doesn't add up. Please contribute your hard-earned dollars instead to the reputable efforts of NRA/CRPA.

Look, I'm sure Mr. Baird's and Mr. Gallardo's hearts are in the right place. We all want swift justice and our rights restored without delay. Unfortunately our court system just doesn't work that way. My prediction is that this Complaint gets disposed with a quick Motion to Dismiss.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-10-2019, 7:58 PM
wolfwood's Avatar
wolfwood wolfwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBum View Post
Oh no, not one of these again. Another chip off of the ol' Charles Nichols block. Granted, this guy at least hired attorneys, but I've never heard of them in connection with 2nd Amendment civil rights litigation in California.

Here are some of the glaring legal issues I noticed right off the bat:

- Only AG Becerra is a named defendant, yet the AG's office has no involvement in making a determination on someone's "good cause" statement. No individual sheriffs are named.

- Plaintiffs are residents of Siskiyou and Shasta county, both of which have "shall issue" CCW policies at the moment. Not to mention 2A friendly sheriffs.

- Nothing in the complaint alleges Plaintiffs even tried applying for, and were denied, an open carry license. Without this, how do we know there is even a dispute ripe for adjudication?

- There is no state-mandated form to use for open carry license applications, but that doesn’t mean you can’t apply for one. Write a letter ... something, anything to show that there is actually a no-issue policy in place.

Upon further research, I found this web page relating to one of the plaintiffs, Mark Baird: State of Jefferson leader to file lawsuit blocking CA open carry law. I do have a couple of issues with this author's statements:



No, this is not true at all. There are already open AND concealed carry challenges pending before the Ninth Circuit (in addition to Young v. Hawaii, Michel & Associates just recently filed Livingston v. Ballard in Hawaii). This lawsuit does not get to "jump ahead".



No, please don't. In order to handle this type of case at the appropriate level of competence, a federal lawsuit and appeal should cost a whole lot more than this. Think about it, for an average attorney charging $400 per hour, this is only going to pay for 62.5 hours of their time. That just doesn't add up. Please contribute your hard-earned dollars instead to the reputable efforts of NRA/CRPA.

Look, I'm sure Mr. Baird's and Mr. Gallardo's hearts are in the right place. We all want swift justice and our rights restored without delay. Unfortunately our court system just doesn't work that way. My prediction is that this Complaint gets disposed with a quick Motion to Dismiss.
preliminary injunction appeals are expedited so if he files one it will be expedited and he will catch up to Flanegan. Those are the rules.

The same thing happened with Peruta and Baker v kealoha
Peruta was appealed years earlier but Baker was a PI appeal so even though it was years behind Peruta the two cases were argued the same day. The same will likely happen here.
__________________
Please add my business facebook page if you are interested in my litigation
https://www.facebook.com/ABeckLaw/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-10-2019, 8:04 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,607
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
preliminary injunction appeals are expedited so if he files one it will be expedited and he will catch up to Flanegan. Those are the rules.

The same thing happened with Peruta and Baker v kealoha
Peruta was appealed years earlier but Baker was a PI appeal so even though it was years behind Peruta the two cases were argued the same day. The same will likely happen here.
I thought that this only applied to injunctions that were granted. I could be wrong here and would stand corrected if so. My appellate experience is mostly limited to state court and none involved injunctions. But I do disagree that the same would happen here, in light of the other threshold issues that I mentioned.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-10-2019, 8:12 PM
whatevs09 whatevs09 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 106
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

the complaint shows that both plaintiffs applied for open carry more than once and were declined. pg 10 of the complaint has key information supportive of the claims.

Last edited by whatevs09; 04-10-2019 at 8:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-10-2019, 8:29 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,607
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

The allegations are confusing, at best. It goes on and on about how there is no process by which to even apply, but they give zero details about how or when they supposedly applied. And again, these are decisions made by the individual county sheriff, not the AG's office. The sheriffs are the proper defendants to be named and they failed to do that. Remember back in Peruta, there was a whole controversy over whether the AG's office was even allowed to intervene, let alone be the solely named defendant.
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-10-2019, 8:51 PM
Unbekannt Unbekannt is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 311
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

You know it is a full bore lawsuit when this appears:

12. The true names or capacities of Defendants DOES 1-10, whether individual, corporate, or otherwise, are presently unknown to Plaintiffs and are therefore sued herein as
“Does 1

For the State Attorney General. In his case it ought to be Does 1 through 20 inclusive.

His parents were illegal and his true name has never been established.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-10-2019, 9:36 PM
wolfwood's Avatar
wolfwood wolfwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBum View Post
I thought that this only applied to injunctions that were granted. I could be wrong here and would stand corrected if so. My appellate experience is mostly limited to state court and none involved injunctions. But I do disagree that the same would happen here, in light of the other threshold issues that I mentioned.
CIRCUIT RULE 3-3. PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION APPEALS
(a) Every notice of appeal from an interlocutory order (i) granting, continuing, modifying,
refusing or dissolving a preliminary injunction or (ii) refusing to dissolve or modify a
preliminary injunction shall bear the caption “PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION
APPEAL.” Immediately upon filing, the notice of appeal must be transmitted by the
district court clerk’s office to the Court of Appeals clerk’s office. (Rev. 12/1/09)
(b) Within 7 days of filing a notice of appeal from an order specified in subparagraph (a), the
parties shall arrange for expedited preparation by the district court reporter of all portions
of the official transcript of oral proceedings in the district court which the parties desire
to be included in the record on appeal. Unless otherwise established by Court order in a
particular case, the following briefing deadlines will apply: Within 28 days of the
docketing in the district court of a notice of appeal from an order specified in
subparagraph (a), the appellant shall file an opening brief and excerpts of record.
Appellee’s brief and any supplemental excerpts of record shall be filed within 28 days of
service of appellant’s opening brief. Appellant may file a brief in reply to appellee’s brief
within 21 days of service of appellee’s brief. (Rev. 12/1/02; 12/1/09; 6/1/17)


PI appeals always are expedited. That is why Chuck's appeals in Fyock, Jackson and McKay were all expedited despite losing in the trial court.
__________________
Please add my business facebook page if you are interested in my litigation
https://www.facebook.com/ABeckLaw/
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-10-2019, 9:59 PM
BumBum's Avatar
BumBum BumBum is offline
Corn-fed and Iowa-bred
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 1,607
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Noted. But it also occurred to me, if the case isn't dismissed, the state is just going to seek a stay. What is the point, why is the case even necessary if the objective is just to catch up?
__________________

DISCLAIMER: The information contained herein is general in nature, which may not apply to particular factual or legal circumstances, and is intended for informational purposes only. Consistent with Calguns policy, the information does not constitute legal advice or opinions and should not be relied upon as such. Transmission of the information is not intended to create an attorney-client relationship. Readers should not act upon any information in my posts without seeking professional counsel.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-11-2019, 3:58 PM
TruOil TruOil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 639
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBum View Post
The allegations are confusing, at best. It goes on and on about how there is no process by which to even apply, but they give zero details about how or when they supposedly applied. And again, these are decisions made by the individual county sheriff, not the AG's office. The sheriffs are the proper defendants to be named and they failed to do that. Remember back in Peruta, there was a whole controversy over whether the AG's office was even allowed to intervene, let alone be the solely named defendant.
Well, it could be said that the AG is a proper party since, as I recall, the CCW form is mandatory, and the AG has not issued a form that provides for an open carry permit.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-23-2019, 5:42 PM
whatevs09 whatevs09 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 106
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

tentative court date in Sac. is Sep 6, 2019.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:13 AM
whatevs09 whatevs09 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 106
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Court date confirmed! Fri Sep 6, 10 am, Matsui Courthouse, Sacramento. Judge Kim Mueller. http://tokeepandbear.com/ Unfortunately, the judge's online calendar only shows 28 days out. Clerk phone tel:1-916-930-4193; please spread the word and show up and support !!

Last edited by whatevs09; 07-08-2019 at 6:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:25 PM
malfunction's Avatar
malfunction malfunction is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: low crawling towards the state line...
Posts: 379
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Mueller thinks the California Roster of Not-Unsafe Hanguns is totally cool and doesn't burden the 2A right at all, so I I think we know how this is going to go
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
What we have in practice is a legal system, not a justice system.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-07-2019, 1:14 PM
CDMichel's Avatar
CDMichel CDMichel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 109
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Bringing this case was NOT WISE in the first place. It appears to have been brought for the wrong reasons (hoping to get to go to SCOTUS? Self-promotion?), at the wrong time, and with insufficient resources and skills. Litigating Second Amendment cases is a HEAVY legal lift. Sadly, well-intentioned but uninformed lawyers and plaintiffs who bring lawsuits like this hurt the 2A cause. You are NOT helping. I do not support this effort.
__________________
C. D. "Chuck" Michel
MICHEL & ASSOCIATES, P.C.
180 East Ocean Blvd., Suite 200
Long Beach, CA 90802
Main: 562-216-4444 Email: cmichel@michellawyers.com
Website: www.michellawyers.com
Gun law info: www.calgunlaws.com
Subscribe to Receive News and Alerts


Last edited by CDMichel; 07-07-2019 at 1:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-07-2019, 4:42 PM
wchutt's Avatar
wchutt wchutt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Shasta County
Posts: 483
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMichel View Post
Bringing this case was NOT WISE in the first place. It appears to have been brought for the wrong reasons (hoping to get to go to SCOTUS? Self-promotion?), at the wrong time, and with insufficient resources and skills. Litigating Second Amendment cases is a HEAVY legal lift. Sadly, well-intentioned but uninformed lawyers and plaintiffs who bring lawsuits like this hurt the 2A cause. You are NOT helping. I do not support this effort.
Could you go into a bit more depth as to your predicted problems this case brings and any other downside you see happening? I understand the general, "poor preparation leads to bad precedent" are there specifics about this case that are wrong?
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JeffersonStateLaser/

Make it personal.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-08-2019, 6:26 PM
whatevs09 whatevs09 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 106
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

what has mr. michel done in CA to help with the open carry situation other than criticize others.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-08-2019, 8:53 PM
sbrady@Michel&Associates's Avatar
sbrady@Michel&Associates sbrady@Michel&Associates is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 666
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
what has mr. michel done in CA to help with the open carry situation other than criticize others.
Haha, you're either not a serious person or you're a propagandist.

Mr. Michel has done more for all gun rights in California, including open carry, than any other individual on the planet. Of course, he has been able to do so because of the support of NRA and CRPA. But he has chosen to do so. And that choice has likely made him much less money over the course of his career than he could have been making. Note that he does not even take a salary as President of CRPA. And he has been honored by NRA for the amount of pro bono work he has done on its behalf.

Mr. Michel's firm has, just this year, been responsible for Freedom Week (the Duncan case, which struck down California's "large capacity magazine" law allowing people to buy such magazines in the state for the first time in almost twenty years, and may do away with the law permanently); and a preliminary injunction against the ban on the Del Mar gun show, which has already given other local governments pause in banning their gun shows, possibly saving gun shows in California. His firm also has litigation pending against CA's "assault weapon" ban (Rupp), as well as its regulations (Villanueva); the new ammunition restrictions (Rhode, to which we will soon be seeking a preliminary injunction); the DROS fee (Gentry, which has already confirmed that DOJ is obligated to review the DROS fee and make sure it is not being overcharged); LA's ordinance discriminating against NRA supporters; and Morgan Hill's lost or stolen gun ordinance. And that is following a year where his firm got California to agree to reimburse his clients hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees for having to litigate the original ammunition laws that his firm had struck down, as well as having the City of LA agree to reimburse his client $35K in legal fees for failing to disclose firearm related records.

And that is not to mention all the other matters he works on with NRA and CRPA fighting against the CA DOJ and other regulatory and municipal bodies: https://www.nraila.org/legal-legisla...gation-report/

But, to answer your specific (silly) question, Mr. Michel oversaw the Peruta v. San Diego case, which resulted in an opinion that served as the foundation of the opinion in the Young v. Hawaii matter, which struck down Hawaii's open carry ban. Upon having the Peruta opinion stolen by the Ninth Circuit, Mr. Michel brought the Flanagan v. Becerra matter, challenging ALL of California's carry restrictions, open and concealed, to force the court into answering the right to bear arms question directly. He has also filed a similar lawsuit challenging ALL of Hawaii's carry laws for the same reason (Livingston v. Hawaii). Open-carry-only challenges, especially in shall issue CCW counties like the one at issue in the case this thread is about, do not sufficiently corner government to answer that question, as they allow the government an out to say people are allowed to get a CCW and their rights are thus in tact. So while you think you are being "uncompromising" in an open carry only challenge, you are really hurting the right to carry in any manner. But hey, at least you stood on "pure principle" right? That can be your story when we still have no right to carry in California. What a joke.

And, before anyone chimes in claiming that I am just brown-nosing the boss, take a look at my resume and understand that I don't need to brown-nose anyone. If anything, Mr. Michel needs to keep me happy. It is just that I, like him, truly believe in the cause. That is why we do this. And, we have been doing a pretty damn good job at it considering. So I have run out of patience for people like you who haven't done anything other than complain about the supposed lack of progress and then support every Johnny-Come-Lately, when you have no idea what you're talking about, or worse you do and are trying to fool other people because you have an ulterior motive.

In sum, anyone is free to criticize our office's strategy or work product. But you don't get to make patently false allegations like Mr. Michel hasn't done anything for the right to carry. That's just a lie. What's more, doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing, which some lawsuits are.

Last edited by sbrady@Michel&Associates; 07-08-2019 at 9:32 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-08-2019, 9:55 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,000
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
Haha, you're either not a serious person or you're a propagandist.
It's a coin flip, really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
Mr. Michel has done more for all gun rights in California, including open carry, than any other individual on the planet.
Easy to believe. Everyone at Michel and Associates are saintly for the work they do for us in CA- but nobody moreso than Chuck. All of them have my undying gratitude and support.

Thanks, guys.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-09-2019, 6:13 AM
wchutt's Avatar
wchutt wchutt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Shasta County
Posts: 483
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
Haha, you're either not a serious person or you're a propagandist.
Is "not a serious person" lawyer speak for ignorant or stupid?
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JeffersonStateLaser/

Make it personal.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-09-2019, 6:44 AM
GetMeCoffee GetMeCoffee is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 8
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrady@Michel&Associates View Post
...
Mr. Michel has done more for all gun rights in California, including open carry, than any other individual on the planet...
Chuck & Sean: Of course you know that it's basic human nature to express critical thoughts, while supportive thoughts tend to be relegated to an approving nod or vocalized "yup" at the computer monitor.

Chuck, you and your team are heroes to me and all of my 2A supporting friends. I am very excited about the progress being made and it's because of your dedication that I recently joined CRPA as a life member. It's a small gesture compared to all that you do, but it's what I'm able to contribute. I'll definitely do more as I'm able.

Thank you for everything you do and for your commitment to our cherished rights!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-09-2019, 7:30 PM
whatevs09 whatevs09 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 106
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

my question still stands, where in CA currently has anyone received the "permit" to open carry a loaded firearm (not job related)??? I never questioned anything else he has done. Pay attention to the question. Anything Mr. Michel has done has NOT resulted in statewide SHALL issue open carry.

Last edited by whatevs09; 07-09-2019 at 7:36 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-09-2019, 7:52 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,000
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
what has mr. michel done in CA to help with the open carry situation other than criticize others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
Pay attention to the question. Anything Mr. Michel has done has NOT resulted in statewide SHALL issue open carry.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-09-2019, 8:01 PM
sbrady@Michel&Associates's Avatar
sbrady@Michel&Associates sbrady@Michel&Associates is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 666
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
what has mr. michel done in CA to help with the open carry situation other than criticize others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
my question still stands, where in CA currently has anyone received the "permit" to open carry a loaded firearm (not job related)??? I never questioned anything else he has done. Pay attention to the question. Anything Mr. Michel has done has NOT resulted in statewide SHALL issue open carry.
As anyone who reads English can see, that was not your question.

In any event, as I explained already, Mr. Michel has set into motion litigation that has made statewide shall issue open carry possible. And, as I have explained, the approach of cases like the one being discussed in this thread jeopardizes that possibility by giving the state an out to say concealed carry licenses are available and that is good enough. So, ironically, cases like this one are bad for those seeking open carry. Maybe you can answer to that.

Last edited by sbrady@Michel&Associates; 07-09-2019 at 8:14 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-09-2019, 8:40 PM
Sputnik's Avatar
Sputnik Sputnik is offline
Shiny
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: East Bay
Posts: 1,532
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevs09 View Post
my question still stands, where in CA currently has anyone received the "permit" to open carry a loaded firearm (not job related)??? I never questioned anything else he has done. Pay attention to the question. Anything Mr. Michel has done has NOT resulted in statewide SHALL issue open carry.
No one can or will get a "permit" to open carry in CA because the Mulford act criminalized the open carry of firearms and the state does not authorize permits for open carry except armed guards during the course of their job duties.

Until such time as the laws regarding carry, open or concealed, are overturned in court this state will continue to infringe.

Were it not for the folks who do the heavy lifting like Chuck Michel, Sean Brady, the folks at SAF, Alan Gura, Paul Clement, etc (though many of those deal with cases outside CA) I have to think we wouldn't be getting anywhere at all.

I know we've all had some disappointments when putting our faith in "the right people" getting our rights back but currently we are seeing some positive outcomes and I feel hopeful again. Much of this has to do with getting better judges into position to actually enforce the constitution and thats beyond the scope of this post.
What I feel is important is that Mr Michel is right there with the CRPA on the front lines and we are slowly getting some ground back. One inch at a time.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-10-2019, 5:58 AM
wolfwood's Avatar
wolfwood wolfwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Baird has filed for a preliminary injunction

https://www.scribd.com/document/4164...ary-Injunction
__________________
Please add my business facebook page if you are interested in my litigation
https://www.facebook.com/ABeckLaw/
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-10-2019, 7:40 AM
wchutt's Avatar
wchutt wchutt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Shasta County
Posts: 483
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Baird has filed for a preliminary injunction

https://www.scribd.com/document/4164...ary-Injunction
To a layperson it seemed well reasoned, but a bit repetitive. Curious what the legal beagles responses will be, hopefully with specifics as to positives and negatives of the arguments presented.
__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JeffersonStateLaser/

Make it personal.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-10-2019, 8:38 AM
nerdoboy nerdoboy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Here to facilitate communication

Hello - I am new to the board. I am helping Mark Baird with this case. I run the tokeepandbear.com website and newsletter. Mark is very interested in what you all are posting here and wants to engage in dialog where he can. His problem is time. He flies DC 10 fire suppression aircraft so he is in his busy season right now. When not flying he is a rancher.

I will check here often and forward questions and comments to Mark. When he has time he will probably jump in himself. When he can't,I will try to forward his responses to you all in a timely manner.

David Titchenal
admin@tokeepandbear.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-10-2019, 8:45 AM
Highlander3751 Highlander3751 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I’m fairly new to all of this, but I’m trying to do my homework and research.

Aside from Baird being behind other, similar cases like Young and Nichols, why isn’t this getting more support? I think the goal for all of us is to get the government’s greasy paws off of our Second Amendment rights, isn’t it? I would prefer that meant Permitless carry, open or concealed, at the carrier’s discretion.

However, since the Supreme Court has ruled that “concealed carry is not a right,” and all nine justices (conservative, moderate, and liberal blocs) agreed unanimously on that point, that means open carry is our best shot. It may not be the fight we wanted, but it’s the fight we have, and the only one we have a chance of winning, given SCOTUS record of denying cert for concealed carry cases.

Since open carry is the only method left that we can win for permitless carry, why are those efforts not receiving more backing, instead of filing concealed cases over and over again?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-10-2019, 1:15 PM
nerdoboy nerdoboy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Highlander - there is plenty of grass roots support in certain areas of California for what Baird is doing. The entire State of Jefferson movement is supporting Mark both financially and with public relations efforts. That's 23 counties and hundreds of thousands of people. As to the mixed reactions on this thread I will let Baird speak for himself. As to the charge made by Mr. C. Michel that Baird is doing this for self-promotion I can unequivocally say that statement is absurd and beneath someone of Michel's reputation to even post something like that.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-10-2019, 1:45 PM
wolfwood's Avatar
wolfwood wolfwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,173
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdoboy View Post
Highlander - there is plenty of grass roots support in certain areas of California for what Baird is doing. The entire State of Jefferson movement is supporting Mark both financially and with public relations efforts. That's 23 counties and hundreds of thousands of people. As to the mixed reactions on this thread I will let Baird speak for himself. As to the charge made by Mr. C. Michel that Baird is doing this for self-promotion I can unequivocally say that statement is absurd and beneath someone of Michel's reputation to even post something like that.
Have you thought about reaching out to CRPA to have them file an amicus brief (friend of the court) in support of Mark's case. It seems like opening up a dialog would be the best way to alleviate any anxiety they might have regarding the case. This would help CRPA as well because that would give them a chance to offer their perspective to the court.
__________________
Please add my business facebook page if you are interested in my litigation
https://www.facebook.com/ABeckLaw/
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-10-2019, 2:02 PM
Highlander3751 Highlander3751 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdoboy View Post
Highlander - there is plenty of grass roots support in certain areas of California for what Baird is doing. The entire State of Jefferson movement is supporting Mark both financially and with public relations efforts. That's 23 counties and hundreds of thousands of people. As to the mixed reactions on this thread I will let Baird speak for himself. As to the charge made by Mr. C. Michel that Baird is doing this for self-promotion I can unequivocally say that statement is absurd and beneath someone of Michel's reputation to even post something like that.
I get that; I’m in “Jefferson” myself, and I see the support here. I meant more of the NRA/CRPA/Chick Michel crowd; since SCOTUS has specifically said that *concealed* carry is NOT a right under 2A, why aren’t more of their efforts focused on Open Carry, which it appears is a battle that can actually be won, rather than concealed, which has already lost, and continues to be denied cert every time it comes up?

As I said before, I would prefer permitless carry of both open and concealed at the carrier’s discretion, but since concealed carry is a non-starter for SCOTUS, shouldn’t we focus on the battles we can win, rather than fighting the same losing war over and over again?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-10-2019, 3:55 PM
sbrady@Michel&Associates's Avatar
sbrady@Michel&Associates sbrady@Michel&Associates is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 666
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

You're simply wrong in your description of NRA/CRPA's carry litigation.

Here is a portion of the prayer from the complaint in the NRA/CRPA supported carry case expressly asking for the Court to declare open carry restrictions unconstitutional:

PRAYER
WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs request that judgment be entered in their favor and
against Defendants as follows:
1. A declaration that the Second Amendment guarantees the right of
responsible, law-abiding citizens to carry a firearm in public for self-defense.
2. A declaration that denying all manners of publicly carrying a firearm
for self-defense to law-abiding citizens violates the Second Amendment.
3. A declaration that California Penal Code sections 25850, 26350,
26400, and 26150(b)(2) are unconstitutional facially and as applied to Plaintiffs insomuch as they preclude law-abiding citizens from openly carrying a firearm in public for self-defense.
4. A declaration that state laws prohibiting the open carriage of firearms by law-abiding citizens for self-defense are unconstitutional facially and as applied to Plaintiffs.

Read the whole complaint here: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/..._Conformed.pdf

That residents of "Jefferson" support litigation with the goal of striking down open carry bans is not surprising.

If I said I had a plan to end ISIS, most good people would support that goal too. But, the issue is not the goal, it is the road you take to achieve it.

One would not look to the public for whether my ending ISIS plan is a good one, but rather to military-educated folks.

The Flanagan case challenging California's carry restrictions was developed by the same attorneys responsible for striking down CA's "large capacity magazine" ban just months ago (Duncan); getting a preliminary injunction against the State's ban on gun shows at Del Mar just a month ago; getting the first pro-carry ruling in the Ninth Circuit, which was later stolen via a disingenuous ruling (Peruta); and striking down the original ammunition restrictions (Parker) and receiving a favorable ruling in overcoming the State's motion to dismiss their claims against CA's new ammo restrictions (Rhode).

The Flanagan case corners the government into a ruling on the right to carry. This case does not necessarily for the reasons I explained above.

There is also a solid chance this case will be stayed just like others, pending SCOTUS's decision in NYSRPA.

Last edited by sbrady@Michel&Associates; 07-10-2019 at 4:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-10-2019, 4:02 PM
nerdoboy nerdoboy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Have you thought about reaching out to CRPA to have them file an amicus brief (friend of the court) in support of Mark's case. It seems like opening up a dialog would be the best way to alleviate any anxiety they might have regarding the case. This would help CRPA as well because that would give them a chance to offer their perspective to the court.
In the process now of contacting organizations and sending info for the amicus brief requests. The three organizations contacted yesterday were positive..
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-11-2019, 9:57 AM
mcbair mcbair is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 2
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Circular firing squad

It is not my habit to post on forums, but since this directly impacts me, I will make an attempt to explain the reasons for our lawsuit. Yes the lawsuit was my idea originally, but I take no credit, nor do I wish any. Thousands of patriots from Jefferson Counties are actively involved in an attempt to regain some of the Liberty we have all squandered through inaction, inattention, etc. The Jefferson Counties have also brought suit against California for lack of adequate representation, but that is another story.

We have the God given, pre-governmental Right to defense of self, family, community, state and nation. We know this because the Constitution says so in plain english as guaranteed in our Second Amendment. The California Constitution agrees in Art 1, Sec 1, Art 2, Sec 1, Art 3, Sec 1. California Governmental officials Swear, (or affirm) the same in Article 20. Government has NO Rights. Government is an inanimate object, and thus enjoys nothing the people do not give it, or in this case what it has usurped and stolen from the people. Only people have Rights. If that is true, what are we talking about here?

We allowed California government to take our liberty because Governor Reagan and Don Mulford had a bone to pick with the Black Panther Party in 1967. We again allowed California to strip us of what little remained of our rights in 2012, and 2013, when Little Anthony Portantino made our ability to carry unloaded weapons illegal. For more than 163 years, in California, a person could openly carry weapons, loaded until 1967, and unloaded until 2013. All of a sudden it is in the governments “interest” to balance your God Given Right to defense, with governments “interest” in maintaining order. Criminals don’t follow the law. Criminals are already barred from weapons possession. Whom, one may ask is the government subjecting to this “order” they want to maintain? The answer is easy....it’s YOU!

California Sheriffs are not the end all of law enforcement in our state, as they may or may not be in others. In California, Sheriffs work for the Attorney General. The Attorney General runs Cal DOJ. DOJ produces regulations and paperwork for your mother may I slips to carry concealed, or openly as permitted open carry is all that is left to us according to our masters in Sacramento. The legislature has instructed DOJ that it has given Sheriffs and Police Chiefs the authority to decide “who may carry”, and (who may not), in order to protect its “delicately balanced” system designed to protect individual rights against the state’s interest in “maintaining order”.

Concealed carry is NOT a right. Cert denied in Peruta, end of story. There are only two ways to carry the gun. Openly or concealed. This nonsense, in my opinion, about “public” carry is designed by the state as a ruse to obscure the facts and denigrate the Right to a permission. There is no law against, carry in you home whether you have the gun in your bathrobe pocket or strapped to your hip over your PJs. Never has been. Open carry, the Right to wear bear or carry a loaded weapon in public for use offensively, or defensively, in the event of conflict with another person is the core Right guaranteed by the Second Amendment and further the Right Declares That It Shall Not Be Infringed.

PC 26150 (b)(2), and 26155 (b)(2), codify, in the state’s opinion, the only lawful avenue to ordinary citizens to Second Amendment guaranteed Rights, (concealed carry is not a Right. It is a permission at the whim of the state).

We have the Right, we know this. But what good is the Right, when no jurisdiction capable of issuing the permit, has ever done so.....not even one!
Further, what good is the Right when it ends in arrest at the county line on the way to Costco? What good is the Right, when one would have to apply in all 30 jurisdictions separately,(only 30 counties out of 58 have less than 200,000 populations. If you live in the other 28 counties you hav NO second Amendment Right at all). One would have to live in all of them simultaneously, (establish residence), Pay, and train, in all of them separately, convince thirty sheriffs or police chiefs that you have “good cause”, and finally sprout wings to fly over the counties in the middle to avoid arrest.

Look.... there is too much to say here. I will not engage in the circular firing squad where conservatives stand around and shoot each other in the foot because someone thinks their case is better. I applaud every patriot group or law firm trying to restore the Liberty we the people have allowed the state to take from us. I have never met Mr Michel and have never spoken to him. I don’t know why he thinks he knows what our motives are for this suit, don’t care. I say a rising tide floats all boats. I don’t care who wins, let’s just win!
Our group applauds any and all patriots who stand up and put the pressure on!
If you don’t agree with what we are doing, God bless you, and go follow you own path, but all any of us can ask is that you do no harm to anyone trying to do anything to restore our God given gifts.

Please if interested, read the complaint carefully. Constructive critique is welcome. Honest questions are welcome. My self or some one involved will monitor the site and we are happy and willing to engage. If conservatives, Christians, and gun owners would stop the circular firing squad, and start showing up to vote, contribute to cases, show up to court, we could take our state back from the liars in Sacramento in an instant.

Last edited by mcbair; 07-11-2019 at 10:12 AM.. Reason: forgot to add something.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-11-2019, 1:19 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,000
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbair View Post
Constructive critique is welcome
I would love to engage, but in doing so on a public forum (where the DoJ is known to lurk) I would be doing the state's job for them. Not that I think it will be difficult for them to torpedo this case in the first place. For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbair View Post
If you live in the other 28 counties you hav NO second Amendment Right at all)
When you make arguments like this, it's reminiscent of the statement "What part of shall not be infringed don't you understand". You claim that I, by living in a high pop. county, have "NO second Amendment Right at all". Yet I own firearms. We can nitpick over the definitions of rights and privileges, but that's not an argument you're going to win in front of a judge in CA. Not unless NYSRPA hands down a mandate in scrutiny, but at that point we've won anyways. All you'll be doing in the meantime is building precedent against the second amendment and making other legal challenges less likely to succeed.

I get the impatience- I really do. There's an overbearing sense of despair that comes from being a 2A advocate in Ca these days. We all feel we have to "stand up and do something" to stop the loss of our rights completely. I understand that you have all of our best interests at heart. But can you understand how what you're doing might be actually hurting rather than helping us?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-11-2019, 1:30 PM
sbrady@Michel&Associates's Avatar
sbrady@Michel&Associates sbrady@Michel&Associates is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 666
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Peruta was not about "a right to concealed carry." It was about a right to carry in some manner, San Diego County just happened to only allow concealed carry licenses.

Two Supreme Court justices (Thomas and Gorsuch) recognized such in dissenting to the denial of SCOTUS reviewing Peruta:

The en banc court’s decision to limit its review to
whether the Second Amendment protects the right to
concealed carry—as opposed to the more general right to
public carry—was untenable. Most fundamentally, it was
not justified by the terms of the complaint, which called
into question the State’s regulatory scheme as a whole.
See First Amended Complaint ¶63 (“Because California
does not permit the open carriage of loaded firearms,
concealed carriage with a [concealed carry] permit is the
only means by which an individual can bear arms in public places”); id., ¶74 (“States may not completely ban the
carrying of handguns for self-defense”). And although the
complaint specified the remedy that intruded least on the
State’s overall regulatory regime—declaratory relief and
an injunction against the sheriff ’s restrictive interpretation of “good cause”—it also requested “[a]ny further relief
as the Court deems just and proper.” Id., ¶152.

Nor was the Ninth Circuit’s approach justified by the
history of this litigation. The District Court emphasized
that “the heart of the parties’ dispute” is whether the
Second Amendment protects “the right to carry a loaded
handgun in public, either openly or in a concealed manner.” Peruta v. County of San Diego, 758 F. Supp. 2d 1106,
1109 (SD Cal. 2010).

Read the whole dissent here: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...Certiorari.pdf

That people pushing litigation in this arena are unaware of that fact, and don't understand its ramifications, is disconcerting to say the least.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-11-2019, 2:31 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 16,990
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

The biggest issue with different entities filing lawsuits with very little experience in the gun world in this state is that they have no idea what other suits have done to set up other potential lawsuits.

They also think the Lawyers that work for the State of California are stupid which isn't the case at all! They know exactly how the courts will generally act towards their arguments and are good at framing their arguments to be welcomed by 9th circuit judges until lately with a slight swing in the 9th.

Not here to bash anyone but its kinda like jumping into the chess game and not even knowing what the strategy.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-11-2019, 3:17 PM
pacrat pacrat is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 5,962
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander3751 View Post
I’m fairly new to all of this, but I’m trying to do my homework and research.

<snip>

However, since the Supreme Court has ruled that “concealed carry is not a right,” and all nine justices (conservative, moderate, and liberal blocs) agreed unanimously on that point, that means open carry is our best shot. It may not be the fight we wanted, but it’s the fight we have, and the only one we have a chance of winning, given SCOTUS record of denying cert for concealed carry cases.

Since open carry is the only method left that we can win for permitless carry, why are those efforts not receiving more backing, instead of filing concealed cases over and over again?
Please cite the case that SCOTUS unanimously ruled that CCW is NOT a RIGHT.

Denying cert for a case is not by any means a "Unanimous" ruling against the petitioner.

New member "mcbair" said;

Concealed carry is NOT a right. Cert denied in Peruta, end of story.

"mcbair", you seem to be laboring under the same misconception as Highlander.

There are a lot of chapters left in this "story".
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:28 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.