National Forests all closed, fire restrictions

[Creeping Incrementalism]

I could go on a long rant about this and the general attitude of government. I hope I can keep this short: Eff this. Anything goes wrong and the government reaction is "shut down everything". The rule has become CYA, afraid of a single person getting hurt out of the thousands upon thousands who use the public land. Lordly attitudes of rangers towards the public like people belong in the suburbs and cities and shouldn't be allowed in their hallowed forests that were reserved for the general public and smaller businesses in the first place.

Even before this, general fire restrictions have gotten markedly worse over the past decade. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, I hardly ever saw "no campfire" signs. But over the past several years I see them all the time, even when it isn't much of a drought year.

It is always a bummer to drive through a burned forest, but somehow they survived pretty well before all these restrictions. Official Calif. rainfall records only go back to 1943 and there have been many severe droughts in the earlier 1900s (and latter 1800s in the West), yet I never read about everything getting closed down in the past.

[MARKFP]

Wow I thought I heard an echo...... My brother and I were talking about this subject just the other day, we grew up in Los Padres forest behind Santa Barbara. The truth is the closures are decided upon by federal employees who are driven by local political agenda, not by federal USFS decision makers. My youngest brother is in Montana, I also have many friends in AZ, ID, NV and other western states which only close forests when fires or other disasters are life threatening in the area.
But think about other type "closure/ shut-down" situations. Wind blows=power shut off, locally if accident on 101, no matter how small, a 10 mile section is shut down both ways with no detour offered. OP, you KNOW you can probably think of atleast another dozen examples that are all liberally driven. Think of all the hunters in Komifornia that will not get refunds for their tags and licenses. you got me started.....

Mark

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Originally Posted by MARKFP

. My youngest brother is in Montana, I also have many friends in AZ, ID, NV and other western states which only close forests when fires or other disasters are life threatening in the area.

Yeah I spent hours and hours last week planning a big trip around the Inyo National Forest, Owens Valley Area. Now I'm looking at Nevada. I love that state and all, but it can be a 100 mile round-trip for gas from where I want to camp, and I can only fit so many gas cans in my truck with my camping gear, and if I had more time I could plan it so I when I was due to be low on gas, I'd be coming back from a hike or ghost town on the way by the gas station. It is just so much logistics so it is hard to plan on the fly.

[AGGRO]

Closed as in no entry or no camping or no flames. Details are important. People that live in those cabins use the trails daily.

[scottz]

Originally Posted by AGGRO

Closed as in no entry or no camping or no flames. Details are important. People that live in those cabins use the trails daily.

Closed as in no use

[furyous68]

Originally Posted by AGGRO

Closed as in no entry or no camping or no flames. Details are important. People that live in those cabins use the trails daily.

Closed as in no entry. No use. No recreational activities of any kind.

[madland]

The closure of various NF ranges is due to high fire danger and the lack of resources to fight the massive amount of fires burning up and down the state. It has nothing to do with "shutting everything down". By shutting down an area..the potential for a new start is minimized. Yes there can still be lightning strikes or a power line breaking due to wind or something, but the human factor is greatly reduced by shutting down these areas.

But if you were to watch anything on the news showing people being evac'd..houses and even entire neighborhoods burned to the ground..or the fatalities from some of these fires (10+ currently in CA) your outlook on this might be a bit different. A wildland crew had to do an emergency fire shelter deployment on one of these fires. 3 members burned.
Granite Mountain Hotshots ring a bell..from the movie "Only The Brave." That's a true story, and it's tragic.
These closures are temporary. For many losing their home it'll take years to recover. For those suffering a loss of a family member..they'll never recover from that loss.

Sorry you can't go on your nature walk.

[wpage]

Another factor is the belief that BLM may be torching some of the blazes.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Originally Posted by madland

The closure of various NF ranges is due to high fire danger and the lack of resources to fight the massive amount of fires burning up and down the state. It has nothing to do with "shutting everything down". By shutting down an area..the potential for a new start is minimized.

EVERY summer there is high fire danger, there have been well recorded massive fires since the 1800s in the west, firefighters NEVER have enough resources (yet somehow have the resources for massive pension plants). Yet NEVER have ALL national forests been shut down. I don't buy this crap about "record" years when fire records only go back to 1987 in a state where written history goes back to the 1700s

Sorry you can't go on your nature walk.

This is my one week during the year I can go on a vacation and I spend hours and hours over weeks planning it. Sorry you are too arrogant to understand that.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

This is my one week during the year I can go on a vacation and I spend hours and hours over weeks planning it. Sorry you are too arrogant to understand that.

The irony brings a smile to my face.

[Gundiver]

Originally Posted by madland

The closure of various NF ranges is due to high fire danger and the lack of resources to fight the massive amount of fires burning up and down the state. It has nothing to do with "shutting everything down". By shutting down an area..the potential for a new start is minimized. Yes there can still be lightning strikes or a power line breaking due to wind or something, but the human factor is greatly reduced by shutting down these areas.

But if you were to watch anything on the news showing people being evac'd..houses and even entire neighborhoods burned to the ground..or the fatalities from some of these fires (10+ currently in CA) your outlook on this might be a bit different. A wildland crew had to do an emergency fire shelter deployment on one of these fires. 3 members burned.
Granite Mountain Hotshots ring a bell..from the movie "Only The Brave." That's a true story, and it's tragic.
These closures are temporary. For many losing their home it'll take years to recover. For those suffering a loss of a family member..they'll never recover from that loss.

Sorry you can't go on your nature walk.

Did he say he was planning on flinging cigarette butts the whole time?

[madland]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

EVERY summer there is high fire danger, there have been well recorded massive fires since the 1800s in the west, firefighters NEVER have enough resources (yet somehow have the resources for massive pension plants). Yet NEVER have ALL national forests been shut down. I don't buy this crap about "record" years when fire records only go back to 1987 in a state where written history goes back to the 1700s



This is my one week during the year I can go on a vacation and I spend hours and hours over weeks planning it. Sorry you are too arrogant to understand that.

Too arrogant to understand your vacation has been disrupted?
Not so much. I’ve had that happen plenty of times. But Covid has also affected staffing. Inmate Fire Crews have even been released early due to the epidemic leaving departments short on hand crews to send out.
Fire Season is year-round in SoCal. Not that it matters to you up in NorCal. But being from Walnut Creek I’m sure you are seeing firsthand how bad things are up where you are. And EVERY YEAR they say it’s gonna be a bad season. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. Look at the Woolsey Fire down here in 2018. Over 1600 structures lost. 3 deaths. Compare that to the 20+ current deaths in Oregon alone. Sorry you’re too ignorant/selfish to understand that.

[DolphinFan]

Does anyone think they will re open in time for deer season?

[madland]

Originally Posted by Gundiver

Did he say he was planning on flinging cigarette butts the whole time?

I don’t think so. Did he? But there are plenty of fire bugs out there who do get their rocks off starting fires. What’s your point? Either bring something of substance to the conversation or keep stirring the pot. Doesn’t matter to me.
I’m just trying to educate the OP as to why the National Forests have been closed..temporarily.

Waiting for your strong, intellectual comeback....

[madland]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

Does anyone think they will re open in time for deer season?

When is deer season?

[Spyder]

It ends next weekend here.

[madland]

Originally Posted by Spyder

It ends next weekend here.

Are you in NorCal? I know nothing about deer season or which county you are in. I’d be misleading you to make any kind of educated guess. But I will go so far to say that everything depends on fire activity wherever you live. A few fires could get good containment and another fire breaks out nearby and starts the cycle over again. It’s like playing Whack-a-Mole sometimes. The Bobcat Fire in Monrovia is expected to burn for at least another week. And that’s just for that fire.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

This is my one week during the year I can go on a vacation and I spend hours and hours over weeks planning it. Sorry you are too arrogant to understand that.

So, if this closure had been delayed by, say a week, you’d be ok?

[furyous68]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

Does anyone think they will re open in time for deer season?

I doubt it. My tags are for D-7. General season starts Sept. 19, ends Nov. 1. I don't think they'll have the Creek Fire contained by then... and even if they do, I doubt they'll be reopening the area for anyone other than residents until it's completely out.

I'm canceling my PTO request & am just going to try to head up to the woods later this winter. No hunting, but at least I can get out there for a few days & relax.

[madland]

Originally Posted by furyous68

I doubt it. My tags are for D-7. General season starts Sept. 19, ends Nov. 1. I don't think they'll have the Creek Fire contained by then... and even if they do, I doubt they'll be reopening the area for anyone other than residents until it's completely out.

I'm canceling my PTO request & am just going to try to head up to the woods later this winter. No hunting, but at least I can get out there for a few days & relax.

What does D-7 mean? I know nothing about deer hunting. Are you limited to the county you live in or can you hunt elsewhere throughout the state?

[WartHog]

Originally Posted by madland

What does D-7 mean? I know nothing about deer hunting. Are you limited to the county you live in or can you hunt elsewhere throughout the state?

Kalifornistan is divided up into zones for Deer hunting. You are limited to hunting the zone you get drawn for. See zone map info from 2018 in link below.
https://www.gameandfishmag.com/edito...st-2018/189965

[madland]

Originally Posted by WartHog

Kalifornistan is divided up into zones for Deer hunting. You are limited to hunting the zone you get drawn for. See zone map info from 2018 in link below.
https://www.gameandfishmag.com/edito...st-2018/189965

So let's say you live in San Diego. Could you possibly get a draw to have to hunt in let's say Humboldt Co area? That would suck.
What about out of state hunting? How does that work? One of my buddies from work was hunting in Colorado or Wyoming if I'm not mistaken. He brought in some of what I thought was tri-tip for dinner one shift. He cut me off a piece. Then he told me it was some of the deer he bagged himself. That was some tasty Q!! Again..I know nothing of the sport..just trying to learn a little bit.
Thanks for the info!!

[JustHereToBuyAnAK]

It's open, I just went on a ride through forestry recently. Also the fires are insane right now. My sinuses are burning just getting to work from the smoke. It looks like fog. I honestly don't blame them for any closures.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by madland

So let's say you live in San Diego. Could you possibly get a draw to have to hunt in let's say Humboldt Co area? That would suck.
What about out of state hunting? How does that work? One of my buddies from work was hunting in Colorado or Wyoming if I'm not mistaken. He brought in some of what I thought was tri-tip for dinner one shift. He cut me off a piece. Then he told me it was some of the deer he bagged himself. That was some tasty Q!! Again..I know nothing of the sport..just trying to learn a little bit.
Thanks for the info!!

Nah, you can put in for draws wherever you want. Different areas/seasons/times of year have different odds of drawing though.

California actually has one of the best deer season options in the country. If you go with an Archery Only tag, you've got dang near six months of open season. A huge part of the state (that is not generally premium hunting, but...) is over the county tags, and a lot of the traditionally better areas are draw based. It's a complicated system for folks who have never spent time looking in to it.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

So, if this closure had been delayed by, say a week, you’d be ok?

I'm saying this is for anyone who has plans on any particular week.

I've been through "insane" smoky conditions all over the woods for decades and never saw an overbearing "close everything" order like this before. Just in 2017 there was half-mile visibility from like Redding non-stop for like 150 miles north through 395 into Oregon, and there weren't huge closures. I've been on hikes with the bucket helicopter dipping into the lake right next to me, fighting a fire just over the mountain. I've been on a hike in a regional park where oak trees would start flaming whenever the wind picked up, chatting with the local CalFire guys and giving smart-*** remarks to their supervisor who told me I should leave even though the park was technically open. I have tons of memories of a kid of going camping and getting black boogers because there was always smoky air from a fire going somewhere.

My point is -- there has always been fire. Only now have they closed everything in the state, including parts of forests that are a hundred miles and the other side of a mountain range from anything on fire.

[furyous68]

Originally Posted by madland

So let's say you live in San Diego. Could you possibly get a draw to have to hunt in let's say Humboldt Co area? That would suck.
What about out of state hunting? How does that work? One of my buddies from work was hunting in Colorado or Wyoming if I'm not mistaken. He brought in some of what I thought was tri-tip for dinner one shift. He cut me off a piece. Then he told me it was some of the deer he bagged himself. That was some tasty Q!! Again..I know nothing of the sport..just trying to learn a little bit.
Thanks for the info!!

Also.. only certain zones are daw only. The majority are basically "over the counter" tags. You can purchase them straight up.. no points or drawings required.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

I'm saying this is for anyone who has plans on any particular week.

My point is -- there has always been fire. Only now have they closed everything in the state, including parts of forests that are a hundred miles and the other side of a mountain range from anything on fire.

Itappeared as though your point was, if you got your trip in before closure you would be good. And my point is, if they open those areas which are well away from the current fires, and some jackhole starts a fire, somebody’s gonna get reamed.

“You knew everything else was burning, why didn’t you protect the other areas?”

[madland]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

I've been on hikes with the bucket helicopter dipping into the lake right next to me, fighting a fire just over the mountain. I've been on a hike in a regional park where oak trees would start flaming whenever the wind picked up, chatting with the local CalFire guys and giving smart-*** remarks to their supervisor who told me I should leave even though the park was technically open.

My point is -- there has always been fire. Only now have they closed everything in the state, including parts of forests that are a hundred miles and the other side of a mountain range from anything on fire.

So what you are admitting to is that in the past you've potentially exposed yourself as another "rescue" "evacuee" or whatever word you choose and created another problem for the Fire Service to deal with. Mouthing off to the guy who is trying to potentially save your life. The water-dropping helicopter has to stop doing it's job so it can break off and possibly hoist your dumb *** out of an area that's in danger of being overrun by fire. Congratulations..you've now put others in danger as well that have to try and rescue you.
I'm guessing with all your fire behavior intellect you know how fast that fire could whip up given the perfect weather/fire conditions and easily end up on your side of the mountain and you are now in the fight of your life.
Did you see the stranded campers around Mammoth Mountain being airlifted to safety because they were caught behind the fire lines with no escape route.
Or the two parents who are critical after being burned over..their 1yr old child didn't survive. The death total in Oregon is upwards of 30 if I'm not mistaken.
But you still don't get it do you?! Don't answer..that was a rhetorical question.
You called me "arrogant" in an earlier post. Why I don't know. I deal in facts Jack. Whereas you are just selfish and ignorant. But hey..go out on your hike. If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.

[sfpcservice]

I can see closing facilities like campgrounds as an administrative decision but I doubt closing entire swaths of public land is legal.

At any rate I just skipped CA last weekend and camped in NV. There's a lot less patagonia wearing nalgene water bottle carriers there anyway.

PS- WE need to bring grizzlies back to CA.

[SnWnMe]

Mt Charleston or Red Rock in NV is close by.

Closing all other NFs helps because if not, the crowds will go to where it's open and now the risk of fire spreads to that area.

I'm supposed to do Cactus to Clouds in a month. Now I have to reschedule my attempt to mid spring because I'm not getting any big climbs in, neither locally nor in the Sierras.

[Sanderhawk]

Well I live in the National Forest. We have two huge fires burning one on each side of us. Close enough to see and smell the smoke from them. I am personally thankful the forests are closed right now. Uneducated tourist coming up here ignoring the rules and causing trouble. Hopefully they keep them shut until it starts to snow so the flatlander idiots can`t start anymore fires.

[AGGRO]

BLM can't be closed easily so I'm hunting blm.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Originally Posted by madland

So what you are admitting to is that in the past you've potentially exposed yourself as another "rescue" "evacuee" or whatever word you choose and created another problem for the Fire Service to deal with. Mouthing off to the guy who is trying to potentially save your life.

These areas were always open that I was in, and you should not assume otherwise. I mouthed off to the CalFire supervisor because he was pulling the usual Ranger Rick lordly behavior on me (and like you are now), even though the park was open.

The death total in Oregon is upwards of 30 if I'm not mistaken.
But you still don't get it do you?! Don't answer..that was a rhetorical question.
You called me "arrogant" in an earlier post. Why I don't know. I deal in facts Jack. Whereas you are just selfish and ignorant. But hey..go out on your hike. If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.

You're arrogant because you dismissed my one week off during the year with "sorry about your nature walk", a clearly dismissive comment. The fact you continue on with language like "selfish... ignorant... dumb" just emphasizes that.

About closing the forests -- the fact that X number of people died or Y number of houses has no direct correlation to shutting down everything in the state. It's not like there is some mathematical formula or precedent here. Again, there have always been fires with huge numbers of acres and lots of structures burned. The local part of the forest was closed. Everything else was left open. Forests 100 miles away were left open. "But you still don't get it do you?!" That is why what I say what the Forest Service is doing is completely inappropriate.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

A point I want to make to all of you who support these unprecedented, wide-ranging shutdowns because "it is dangerous" or "those people are idiots" or anything along that line of thought -- that is the same attitude that causes ranges to be banned, off-range plinking to be banned, 4-wheeling or forest roads to be banned/closed, logging to be banned, and hunting to be banned.

What is happening here isn't targeted to small problem areas. It is a huge over-response to an "unprecedented" situation that really isn't or that will rhetorically become common in the future. The rangers love to shut things down because they get paid the same either way, and there is less work for them with everything shut down and nobody to monitor.

[AGGRO]

Originally Posted by Sanderhawk

Well I live in the National Forest. We have two huge fires burning one on each side of us. Close enough to see and smell the smoke from them. I am personally thankful the forests are closed right now. Uneducated tourist coming up here ignoring the rules and causing trouble. Hopefully they keep them shut until it starts to snow so the flatlander idiots can`t start anymore fires.

Just as many cidiots moved to the sticks that are still able to use the forest. They are also trying to shut down hunting altogether to save the "forest creatures".

[madland]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

These areas were always open that I was in, and you should not assume otherwise. I mouthed off to the CalFire supervisor because he was pulling the usual Ranger Rick lordly behavior on me (and like you are now), even though the park was open.



You're arrogant because you dismissed my one week off during the year with "sorry about your nature walk", a clearly dismissive comment. The fact you continue on with language like "selfish... ignorant... dumb" just emphasizes that.

About closing the forests -- the fact that X number of people died or Y number of houses has no direct correlation to shutting down everything in the state. It's not like there is some mathematical formula or precedent here. Again, there have always been fires with huge numbers of acres and lots of structures burned. The local part of the forest was closed. Everything else was left open. Forests 100 miles away were left open. "But you still don't get it do you?!" That is why what I say what the Forest Service is doing is completely inappropriate.

Ok. Let me break this down for you kind of like a paint-by-numbers so you can understand it a little better.
1) I never assumed anything..especially that you were in an area that was either open or closed.
2) You mouthed off to the Cal Fire Supv..who potentially might've saved your life.
3) I never tried pulling any "lordly" behavior. My initial post was to try and educate you on why all of the NF areas were closed. Try re-reading it.
4) "Sorry you can't go on your nature walk" was sarcasm. I guess I missed the mark and you interpreted it as dismissive. As was the statement "If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough." That wasn't directed at you. It was a generalization. I use that with my kids all the time. My 7yr old gets it. Sorry you didn't.
5) The name-calling started with you. Re-read my original post. I didn't call you anything. Then re-read your follow-up post to mine. You called me arrogant. Clear as mud right?

Finally, you still don't comprehend the fact that people have died, house after house has burned to the ground. And people have lost EVERYTHING!! Yet here you stand still pissed off that your vacation was ruined. Boo-effing-hoo!! Try being in the shoes of one of the people who have nothing but what they loaded into their car as they were fleeing their home not knowing what they'd be coming back to..if anything at all. Many came back to just that...nothing!!
What does that equal..selfish and ignorant. So yeah..I am calling you that here.

I'm done trying to make you see that all of this is bigger than just you. Be thankful you weren't out there hunting with no idea there was a fire burning near you or your story might be totally different.

There's always next year.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

- The Cal Fire guys were sitting around having lunch and there was no wind. The supervisor telling me it was dangerous was most certainly being lordly. I'll mouth off to anyone who could "potentially save my life", if it does not need saving. I'm intelligent enough to know when I'm in danger or not, and firefighters sitting on the ground eating lunch is a pretty good sign of that.

And let me break this down for you in paint-by-numbers terms also. "Sorry you can't go on your nature walk" - that is most certainly an arrogant, dismissive remark and I also recognized it as sarcastic, as you said. I understand your point perfectly. What you said is not technically name-calling, but is clearly a dismissive insult and the fact you immediately launched into generic I'm-smart-you're-stupid ad hominem insults proves your attitude. Your remark to another posted of "Waiting for your strong, intellectual comeback.... " is another mark of your arrogance.

I fully comprehend that people have died and homes are lost, just like they are every year. What you don't understand and repeatedly don't address is that these things happen every year and the national forests have never been all closed before. Only the area on fire is closed.

"There's always next year. " -- no, I'm not going to sit around for a year of my life. I hope you feel good wasting a year of your life. I just got back from the national forests in Nevada for a week, where they only closed the areas near the fires.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism

- The Cal Fire guys were sitting around having lunch and there was no wind. The supervisor telling me it was dangerous was most certainly being lordly. I'll mouth off to anyone who could "potentially save my life", if it does not need saving. I'm intelligent enough to know when I'm in danger or not, and firefighters sitting on the ground eating lunch is a pretty good sign of that.

And let me break this down for you in paint-by-numbers terms also. "Sorry you can't go on your nature walk" - that is most certainly an arrogant, dismissive remark and I also recognized it as sarcastic, as you said. I understand your point perfectly. What you said is not technically name-calling, but is clearly a dismissive insult and the fact you immediately launched into generic I'm-smart-you're-stupid ad hominem insults proves your attitude. Your remark to another posted of "Waiting for your strong, intellectual comeback.... " is another mark of your arrogance.

Again with the hilarity of hypocrisy in throwing around accusations of arrogance towards others.

When you write things such as the quoted, it makes it quite easy to be dismissive.

[Casual_Shooter]

Last night, I was notified by the Wilderness Permit Office that the closure has been extended through Oct 7th.

[Garand Hunter]

So far our trip to Wyo is still on, no fire or covid 19 upsets, Calif hunting for me ended years ago. Too much F & G attitude and lack of productive accessible land to hunt on. Years ago D5 in Calaveras was good, 80's and late 90's but that is history now. The lumber mill property we got onto ended long ago. Hang in there guys,

Psalm 1