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  #1  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:40 AM
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Lightbulb C&R 03-FFL + COE Privileges in 2019 California

Sorry to use the word "privilege" to represent the right we should have. Anyway, I can't find a clear list of all current valid privileges for 03-FFL + COE holder in California. These are some information here and there but most of them were posted quite long ago. Since the gun law changes so frequently these years, those posts may base on old law and not be valid now. Here I would like to have a summary and see if I miss something. Hopefully, this will also benefit people who are new and have spent $100+ to get 03-FFL + COE.

1. Purchase Ammo
* Purchase ammo online and ship to door
* Purchase ammo out of state and transport to CA


2. Purchase C&R long gun in-state from a non-licensees
* No need to go thru 01-FFL DROS, report within 30 days of possession

3. Purchase C&R long gun or C&R handgun out state and transport to CA
* No need to go thru 01-FFL DROS, report within 5 days of transporting

4. Purchase C&R long gun or C&R handgun from in-state 01-FFL
* DROS, with no 10 days waiting period

5. Purchase C&R handgun or modern handgun from in-state 01-FFL
* DROS, with no 1 in 30 days limitation

6. Discount from online retailers, such as Brownells, Numrich, Century etc




--Please correct me if my understanding is wrong, or anything is missing. Thanks!
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Last edited by semilin; 12-09-2018 at 3:06 PM..
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:57 AM
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Number 3 applies to both handguns and long guns.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:59 AM
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AFAIK, 1 in 30 still will apply for non C&R guns but will not for C&R guns.

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Old 12-09-2018, 12:03 PM
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6). Discounted pricing from Brownells, Numrich, Century and others

And at Brownells you can stack their coupon codes onto your already discounted pricing.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:03 PM
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You are exempt from the one in thirty on ALL purchases. The law is clearly written this way but CA DOJ hated it, so they just stopped allowing it. They got sued, they lost, and now you can buy as many handguns at a time as your bank account allows. The law clearly says you must have an (as in any) FFL and COE for 1 in 30 exemption.

It would have been nice had this been in place during the SSE days, but oh well.

NOTE: If you buy more than one in 30, the way the system is set up you have to have the dealer select C&R FFL/COE exempt to buy more than one modern handgun every 30 days. The way the DOJ "fixed" the system will also tell the dealer to go ahead and deliver the handguns. If they are modern, my understanding is that they still have to stay there for 240 hours. I leave them for 10 days at the dealer even though the CA DOJ DROS system says to release them.

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Old 12-09-2018, 12:06 PM
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Purchase ammunition out of state and physically transport back into state.

This is my primary consideration in pursuing C&R and COE, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me. I routinely travel to AZ and NV, and sometimes ammo is much cheaper/more available.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
Purchase ammunition out of state and physically transport back into state.

This is my primary consideration in pursuing C&R and COE, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me. I routinely travel to AZ and NV, and sometimes ammo is much cheaper/more available.
Nope, you're right.
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Old 12-09-2018, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
You are exempt from the one in thirty on ALL purchases. The law is clearly written this way but CA DOJ hated it, so they just stopped allowing it. They got sued, they lost, and now you can buy as many handguns at a time as your bank account allows. The law clearly says you must have an (as in any) FFL and COE for 1 in 30 exemption.

It would have been nice had this been in place during the SSE days, but oh well.

NOTE: If you buy more than one in 30, the way the system is set up you have to have the dealer select C&R FFL/COE exempt to buy more than one modern handgun every 30 days. The way the DOJ "fixed" the system will also tell the dealer to go ahead and deliver the handguns. If they are modern, my understanding is that they still have to stay there for 240 hours. I leave them for 10 days at the dealer even though the CA DOJ DROS system says to release them.
That explains it. Back when I was still in CA (during the SSE days) I had my 03/COE. Bought all kinds of C&R pistols but was limited on my SSE's. Glad to hear there was one small fix made.

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Old 12-09-2018, 1:33 PM
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What about purchasing C&R long gun online or over the phone, in-state or out of state, and having it shipped directly to 03-FFL in CA?
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Old 12-09-2018, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducky's Dad View Post
What about purchasing C&R long gun online or over the phone, in-state or out of state, and having it shipped directly to 03-FFL in CA?
All online purchases, over the phone, etc. now must apparently go to an 01 FFL. I'm honestly not sure why, but that is what the CA DOJ is now saying. You go there and do the transfer and then take it with you with no wait.

The upside to this is that when you send in a form you get to wait nervously for up to six months while the CA DOJ hopefully processes and returns the registration to you. I hate that. You know that processing it at an 01 you are all registered and GTG.
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Old 12-09-2018, 1:50 PM
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Last time I checked it was ok to have CA resident non-licensee ship directly to CA resident FFL03 within CA? Did this change? Or is it now nebulous?
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Old 12-09-2018, 1:55 PM
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A benefit also is that you can use the fact you are a collector with valuable firearms and when you purchase you give your info to at times to members of the general population. This could help with CCW justification.
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Old 12-09-2018, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watt79 View Post
Number 3 applies to both handguns and long guns.
Thanks! Updated.
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Old 12-09-2018, 7:46 PM
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Thanks for the list.
I just applied for the FFL-03 & COE.
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Old 12-09-2018, 8:27 PM
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The upside to this is that when you send in a form you get to wait nervously for up to six months while the CA DOJ hopefully processes and returns the registration to you. I hate that. You know that processing it at an 01 you are all registered and GTG.
But usually, you need to pay a transfer fee or handling fee to the 01 in additional to the $25 DROS.
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Old 12-09-2018, 8:28 PM
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But usually, you need to pay a transfer fee or handling fee to the 01 in additional to the $25 DROS.
And tax
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Old 12-10-2018, 7:55 AM
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And tax
Only if you get the gun from a dealer/FFL. Transfers and purchases from private parties, regardless of where they are shipping from, are NOT subject to sales or use tax at the point of transfer. Many FFLs are either unaware of this nuance or choose to ignore it and then try to charge tax on all transfers. In this case, find another FFL. Purchases from private parties are still subject to use tax when you file your CA income tax return, but not at the point of transfer.
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Old 12-10-2018, 1:09 PM
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Thank you!

I just got my COE/FFL03, and was doing the research to start almost this exact thread.
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Old 12-10-2018, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducky's Dad View Post
Only if you get the gun from a dealer/FFL. Transfers and purchases from private parties, regardless of where they are shipping from, are NOT subject to sales or use tax at the point of transfer. Many FFLs are either unaware of this nuance or choose to ignore it and then try to charge tax on all transfers. In this case, find another FFL. Purchases from private parties are still subject to use tax when you file your CA income tax return, but not at the point of transfer.
Can some clarify for me the process. When an out of state private party has to use an FFL to send me a firearm to my FFL, does the firearm just get shipped or does it log into the out of state FFL’s book then get shipped then log into the CA FFL’s book who then transfers to me? Are local FFLs getting confused because they are thinking it is coming from them even though the sale is private party?
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Old 12-10-2018, 2:22 PM
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Many private parties are so confused that they think they must ship their gun from an FFL to an FFL. Wrong, as long as it is shipped TO a valid FFL. Many CA FFLs will not accept a gun shipped directly by a private party. Also wrong. Some private party sellers don't trust themselves to safely pack a gun for shipping, so they go to the local gun shop to have it packed and shipped. Not necessary, but convenient. I am not an 01-FFL so not sure about this next point, but I think that if all the shipping 01 is doing is packing and shipping as a service to the customer, then he does not have to log the gun because he is not selling or transferring it. But if the receiving FFL in CA sees that the gun came from another FFL, he probably automatically presumes that the gun was sold by that FFL, and is thus taxable under the CA DOJ rules. I will note at this point that the CA State Board of Equalization makes the rules on sales and use tax, and they do not require the collection of tax at the point of transfer if the transferring FFL has no part of the actual sale. The DOJ seems to have taken it upon itself to impose this "rule" on transferring FFLs, even though it is not part of the CA BOE official regulations. The FFLs go along with this arbitrary rule from DOJ because none of them can afford to defend a suit against the DOJ. I will also note that this tax at the point of transfer arose out of an opinion letter issued by Carmen Trutanich before he became, for one term, the City Attorney for Los Angeles. He was at that point a lawyer in private practice, not any kind of government employee or official, so his opinion was just his opinion with no regulatory or legal authority behind it. The DOJ started waving this letter at the FFLs and they almost **** their pants trying to comply with an arbitrary new rule. I have/had (can't find it now) a copy of the Trutanich letter, on his letterhead and apparently signed by him personally. I had occasion to ask him directly about his logic in issuing such a bogus opinion and he denied writing the letter, in a live conversation with me. All he could come up with was the lame argument that it must have been written by a junior associate.

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When an out of state private party has to use an FFL to send me a firearm to my FFL...
There is the wrinkle. The out-of-state private party does not have to use an FFL to send a firearm to your FFL. If your FFL requires that it be shipped from another FFL, then your FFL is making up his own rules. That costs the shipper/seller time and money, which means it costs you time and money, plus it will trigger the tax collection at the point of transfer. Find another FFL.
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Old 12-10-2018, 5:34 PM
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These privileges are great in theory but realistically you will still have limitations and obstacles. Many retailers and private sellers won't care or know about exemptions and will refuse you out of caution and fear so keep that in mind if you don't already have a C&R and are considering one. Just be prepared for uphill struggles
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Old 12-11-2018, 8:56 AM
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I gladly sell and ship directly to a ffl 03/coe buyers doorstep
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  #23  
Old 12-11-2018, 10:12 AM
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On this tax issue. Here's a thought... My background. I have a non-gun online biz, and don't charge CA sale tax on CA sales, but do pay on the CA gross sales at year end. Without getting into a great debate. Since the FFL/DROS dealer also pays sales tax based on gross sales, and does not make a sale, where does the sales tax go?? Does it go into the dealers pocket?? Could a dealer please explain how the tax is handled on their books??
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:28 AM
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The way that CA law is written, the penalty is on the head of the person receiving the firearm. Reportedly, the CMP will also ship to FFL03 but that doesn't make it legal for the FFL03 holder in CA.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:12 PM
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Here's a question that I have not seen answered before...

I was at the Big Show in Reno and there was a seller from California renting a table there. He had a C&R handgun I was looking at and said I could cash and carry (I have a 03FFL). I didn't know if that was true so I didn't buy it.

So here's the question:

Can a buyer and seller who both live in California and both have 03FFLs go to Nevada and do a direct sale of a handgun without going through a 01FFL?
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienHobo View Post
Here's a question that I have not seen answered before...

I was at the Big Show in Reno and there was a seller from California renting a table there. He had a C&R handgun I was looking at and said I could cash and carry (I have a 03FFL). I didn't know if that was true so I didn't buy it.

So here's the question:

Can a buyer and seller who both live in California and both have 03FFLs go to Nevada and do a direct sale of a handgun without going through a 01FFL?
All handguns brought into CA need to go thru a FFL1. A PPT is possible if both parties are conviently close...
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Old 12-11-2018, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by condor View Post
All handguns brought into CA need to go thru a FFL1. A PPT is possible if both parties are conviently close...
Not so... If a licensed 03 C&R collector acquires a C&R handgun out of state he can bring it into CA and then file the necessary paperwork and fees with DOJ notifying them of the acquisition.

Remember CA law only applies in CA.

Now if both parties are CA residents and meet out of state I'm not sure... But I believe it would still be a legal sale Federally and since it's not in CA, CA law would not apply. The above scenario would then apply and require the buyer to send in the required papers and fees to CA DOJ.
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Old 12-11-2018, 4:35 PM
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For the 1-in-30 exemption, there are two documents which are sometimes useful in helping the FFL along the decision-making process:

Superior Court Ruling with Third Appellate Court Ruling

OAG DES Notice of May 2018 explaining approval.
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Old 12-11-2018, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Now if both parties are CA residents and meet out of state I'm not sure... But I believe it would still be a legal sale Federally and since it's not in CA, CA law would not apply. The above scenario would then apply and require the buyer to send in the required papers and fees to CA DOJ.
Hmm.. Interesting. So, as long as I fill out my paperwork within 5 days of returning to CA, I'm good to go. This opens up some possibilities (for C&Rs, of course).
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Old 12-11-2018, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Not so... If a licensed 03 C&R collector acquires a C&R handgun out of state he can bring it into CA and then file the necessary paperwork and fees with DOJ notifying them of the acquisition.

Remember CA law only applies in CA.

Now if both parties are CA residents and meet out of state I'm not sure... But I believe it would still be a legal sale Federally and since it's not in CA, CA law would not apply. The above scenario would then apply and require the buyer to send in the required papers and fees to CA DOJ.
It's my understanding that ALL center fire handguns, C&R and on roster modern, require an FFL1/Dros unless it's an antique, and then generally it's a black powder.... Now case in point if both the 'prospective' buyer and seller are from California and live fairly close the sale could be made in CA and handled via a PPT/FFL1. Long guns are a different story.
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Old 12-11-2018, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
It's my understanding that ALL center fire handguns, C&R and on roster modern, require an FFL1/Dros unless it's an antique, and then generally it's a black powder.... Now case in point if both the 'prospective' buyer and seller are from California and live fairly close the sale could be made in CA and handled via a PPT/FFL1. Long guns are a different story.
That is only if it is shipped to California or purchased in California. Since I have a 03FFL, I could purchase a C&R handgun in Nevada and bring it into California as long as I fill out and send in the paperwork to the CA DoJ within 5 days of returning to California. My question was about the seller being a California resident and we do the transaction outside of California.
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Old 12-11-2018, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
It's my understanding that ALL center fire handguns, C&R and on roster modern, require an FFL1/Dros unless it's an antique, and then generally it's a black powder.... Now case in point if both the 'prospective' buyer and seller are from California and live fairly close the sale could be made in CA and handled via a PPT/FFL1. Long guns are a different story.
Nope, it is perfectly legal for a resident of Ca., that has a 03 FFL, to go out of state, purchase a handgun that is a C&R and bring it back with them to Ca and register it with DOJ using the BOF 4100A form. I do so often.
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Old 12-12-2018, 11:33 PM
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Just to confirm, as if I missed something, could C&R 03FFL+COE holder sell C&R long gun/handgun to non-licensee?
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by semilin View Post
Just to confirm, as if I missed something, could C&R 03FFL+COE holder sell C&R long gun/handgun to non-licensee?
Not directly, only through a 01 FFL. At least that is the case if the seller is a CA resident.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Not directly, only through a 01 FFL. At least that is the case if the seller is a CA resident.
Thank you for confirming!

In addition, if 03FFL+COE holder buys a C&R long gun from non-licensee, is there any document/paperwork need to be passed to/from the licensee or sign something somewhere?
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2018, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by semilin View Post
Thank you for confirming!

In addition, if 03FFL+COE holder buys a C&R long gun from non-licensee, is there any document/paperwork need to be passed to/from the licensee or sign something somewhere?
The seller may want a copy of your 03FFL and COE and maybe your ID. You will want them to write their name, address, DL# in your bound book. The more documentation the better but some folks are not going to give you a copy or let you take a photo of their D/L. You should at least know who you are buying from, and at least look at their ID if not.

You are required to record who the gun came from in your bound book.
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  #37  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
Last time I checked it was ok to have CA resident non-licensee ship directly to CA resident FFL03 within CA? Did this change? Or is it now nebulous?
The law changed, see CA PC 27585. The C&R exemption is 27565 for firearms actually acquired out of state.

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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
And tax
It depends. If the C&R firearm is from a private party and an occasional sale, and the buyer has a C&R FFL, then it isn't subject to sales tax if it is documented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducky's Dad View Post
Only if you get the gun from a dealer/FFL. Transfers and purchases from private parties, regardless of where they are shipping from, are NOT subject to sales or use tax at the point of transfer. Many FFLs are either unaware of this nuance or choose to ignore it and then try to charge tax on all transfers. In this case, find another FFL. Purchases from private parties are still subject to use tax when you file your CA income tax return, but not at the point of transfer.
Incorrect. The CA FFL is considered the retailer and firearm from out of state are subject to sales tax unless it qualifies for the C&R exemption noted above. The CA BOE changed their view several years ago and now the CA FFL is required to submit sales tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducky's Dad View Post
Many private parties are so confused that they think they must ship their gun from an FFL to an FFL. Wrong, as long as it is shipped TO a valid FFL. Many CA FFLs will not accept a gun shipped directly by a private party. Also wrong.
Not wrong, it is the dealer's choice.

Quote:
Some private party sellers don't trust themselves to safely pack a gun for shipping, so they go to the local gun shop to have it packed and shipped. Not necessary, but convenient. I am not an 01-FFL so not sure about this next point, but I think that if all the shipping 01 is doing is packing and shipping as a service to the customer, then he does not have to log the gun because he is not selling or transferring it
There are time limits in regards to logging in the firearm, it has nothing to do with not selling or transferring it. It is best for the FFL to always log the firearm in to have a record of it. The FFL is transferring it when they ship it. Having a FFL ship the firearm doesn't change the sales tax issue.

Quote:
But if the receiving FFL in CA sees that the gun came from another FFL, he probably automatically presumes that the gun was sold by that FFL, and is thus taxable under the CA DOJ rules.
It isn't the CA DOJ rules, it is the CA BOE, now CDFTA or something. As stated, unless it is documented as noted above, it is subject to sales tax.

Quote:
I will note at this point that the CA State Board of Equalization makes the rules on sales and use tax, and they do not require the collection of tax at the point of transfer if the transferring FFL has no part of the actual sale.
Incorrect. The CA BOE considered the CA FFL to be the retailer even if the FFL has nothing to do with the sale unless the out of state business has a presence in CA, at which point that business is responsible for the sales tax INCLUDING the sales tax on the FFL transfer fee by the CA FFL.

Quote:
The DOJ seems to have taken it upon itself to impose this "rule" on transferring FFLs, even though it is not part of the CA BOE official regulations.
Incorrect. It has NOTHING to do with the CA DOJ. You need to look at the rulings from the CA BOE and not give bad information.

Quote:
The FFLs go along with this arbitrary rule from DOJ because none of them can afford to defend a suit against the DOJ. I will also note that this tax at the point of transfer arose out of an opinion letter issued by Carmen Trutanich before he became, for one term, the City Attorney for Los Angeles. He was at that point a lawyer in private practice, not any kind of government employee or official, so his opinion was just his opinion with no regulatory or legal authority behind it. The DOJ started waving this letter at the FFLs and they almost **** their pants trying to comply with an arbitrary new rule. I have/had (can't find it now) a copy of the Trutanich letter, on his letterhead and apparently signed by him personally. I had occasion to ask him directly about his logic in issuing such a bogus opinion and he denied writing the letter, in a live conversation with me. All he could come up with was the lame argument that it must have been written by a junior associate.
Again, it has nothing to do with the CA DOJ. When you say it does it shows that you really don't know what you are talking about.

It doesn't matter since that is the view of the CA BOE and they have written official letters regarding it.

Quote:
There is the wrinkle. The out-of-state private party does not have to use an FFL to send a firearm to your FFL. If your FFL requires that it be shipped from another FFL, then your FFL is making up his own rules. That costs the shipper/seller time and money, which means it costs you time and money, plus it will trigger the tax collection at the point of transfer. Find another FFL.
Shipping through a FFL doesn't change anything and firearms even from out of state sellers are subject to sales tax due to the new view of the BOE with the exception listed above.

Handguns can actually be cheaper to ship through a FFL dealer since a dealer can ship a handgun USPS, whereas non-dealers can not. USPS rates, depending on service and distance, can be from around $5 to around $20, not including insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
All handguns brought into CA need to go thru a FFL1. A PPT is possible if both parties are conviently close...
Incorrect. A C&R FFL holder can go out of state and acquire a C&R handgun and bring it in. See CA PC 27585 and 27565. A CA PPT is only possible if both buyer and seller are CA residents.
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  #38  
Old 12-13-2018, 4:57 PM
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So I can have a long gun shipped to me with a C&R license
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  #39  
Old 12-13-2018, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Riflemen View Post
So I can have a long gun shipped to me with a C&R license
Not from a seller in another state if your license address is in California.

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  #40  
Old 12-15-2018, 10:32 PM
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Does anybody know, starting from July 1st, 2019, whether

1. Purchase Ammo
* Purchase ammo online and ship to door
* Purchase ammo out of state and transport to CA

is still valid according to Prop-63?
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