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  #1  
Old 09-06-2019, 9:17 AM
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Default NON-Serialized 1911

An acquaintance has a 1911 that currently resides within the state. I would like to purchase it. However, it looks like the window to do so has passed.
Is it legal to purchase a semi-auto handgun without a serial number and do a PPT in CA?
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2019, 9:33 AM
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Is it from an 80% frame or is the serial # removed?
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2019, 9:41 AM
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There was never a serial number nor was one removed.

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  #4  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
An acquaintance has a 1911 that currently resides within the state. I would like to purchase it. However, it looks like the window to do so has passed.
Is it legal to purchase a semi-auto handgun without a serial number and do a PPT in CA?
What kind of 'window' did you have in mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
There was never a serial number nor was one removed.
Lack of serial number is not an issue for transfer; FFLs know how to complete the DROS info for that circumstance.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:13 AM
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Who mfg or built the 1911?
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:12 AM
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Who built it may have some effect, but what really needs to be determined is does it qualify as C&R?


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...1.&lawCode=PEN

Quote:
29181. Section 29180 does not apply to or affect any of the following:

(a) A firearm that has a serial number assigned to it pursuant to either Section 23910 or Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Part 1 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(b)A firearm made or assembled prior to December 16, 1968, that is not a handgun.

(c) A firearm which was entered into the centralized registry set forth in Section 11106 prior to July 1, 2018, as being owned by a specific individual or entity if that firearm has assigned to it a distinguishing number or mark of identification because the department accepted entry of that firearm into the centralized registry.

(d) A firearm that has a serial number assigned to it pursuant to Chapter 53 of Title 26 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(e) A firearm that is a curio or relic, or an antique firearm, as those terms are defined in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

Because otherwise PC29180(c) applies and you will have to serialize it.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=29180.

Quote:
(c) By January 1, 2019, any person who, as of July 1, 2018, owns a firearm that does not bear a serial number assigned to it pursuant to either Section 23910 or Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Part 1 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, shall do all of the following:

(1) Apply to the Department of Justice for a unique serial number or other mark of identification pursuant to Section 29182.

(2) Within 10 days of receiving a unique serial number or other mark of identification from the department, the unique serial number or other mark of identification provided by the department shall be engraved or permanently affixed to the firearm in accordance with regulations prescribed by the department pursuant to Section 29182 and in a manner that meets or exceeds the requirements imposed on licensed importers and licensed manufacturers of firearms pursuant to subsection (i) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code and regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(3) After the serial number provided by the department is engraved or otherwise permanently affixed to the firearm, the person shall notify the department of that fact in a manner and within a time period specified by the department and with sufficient information to identify the owner of the firearm, the unique serial number or mark of identification provided by the department, and the firearm in a manner prescribed by the department.

... and that application for a serial number could raise a whole host of questions from DOJ, questions you better have good answers to.

So OP - is this a homemade gun, or is this a genuine C&R? I don't know of any C&R 1911s that were ever made without a serial, but I suppose anything is possible.

In any case, I don't see a FFL transferring a homemade gun without any makers mark or serial. Some may, my guess is they would very few and far between. So this may be a purely academic discussion that has no translation to the real world.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 09-06-2019 at 11:14 AM..
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
There was never a serial number nor was one removed....
Why? If it was homebuilt, clarify. If it was not homebuilt, I'm skeptical that a verifiable, legitimate 1911 was manufactured without a serial number.

Under federal law, possession of a gun with a defaced, altered, or removed serial number is a serious crime.
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:59 AM
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Since the 1990s, it has been CA illegal to transfer ownership of a handgun that does not have serial number or a CA DOJ identification number engraved on it. [PC 27530]

Starting 01-01-2019, it is CA illegal to transfer ownership of non-exempt self-made firearms in CA. [PC 29180(d)]



Penal Code 27530
No person shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership in a handgun unless the firearm bears either:
(a) The name of the manufacturer, the manufacturer’s make or model, and a manufacturer’s serial number assigned to that firearm.
(b) The identification number or mark assigned to the firearm by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 23910.

Penal Code 23910
The Department of Justice, upon request, may assign a distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm whenever the firearm lacks a manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification. Whenever the manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification or a distinguishing number or mark assigned by the department has been destroyed or obliterated, the Department of Justice, upon request, shall assign a distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm in accordance with Section 29182.

Penal Code 29180
(d)(1) The sale or transfer of ownership of a firearm manufactured or assembled pursuant to this section is prohibited.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to the transfer, surrender, or sale of a firearm to a law enforcement agency.
(3) Any firearms confiscated by law enforcement that do not bear an engraved serial number or other mark of identification pursuant to subdivision (b) or (c), or a firearm surrendered, transferred, or sold to a law enforcement agency pursuant to paragraph (2) shall be destroyed as provided in Section 18005.
(4) Sections 26500 and 27545, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, do not apply to the transfer, sale, or surrender of firearms to a law enforcement agency pursuant to paragraph (2).
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Last edited by Quiet; 09-06-2019 at 12:07 PM..
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:49 PM
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I don't know anything about the weapon. There are no markings whatsoever, not even the usual .45 ACP that I would expect to see. It looks to be newish with some updated parts. Maybe it is C&R but no way for me to know for sure.

I don't see, by the laws cited above, that there is any way to legally possess this weapon, let alone legitimize it. Unless I'm not interpreting this correctly, it seems to read that prior to January of this year it could have been transferred to the purchaser.

Librarian stated that he/she thought an FFL would be able to DROS it. I just don't see how that would fly. Is that how you folks see it?
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Why? If it was homebuilt, clarify. If it was not homebuilt, I'm skeptical that a verifiable, legitimate 1911 was manufactured without a serial number.

Under federal law, possession of a gun with a defaced, altered, or removed serial number is a serious crime.
I'm assuming it was a home built, but don't know the history.
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Old 09-06-2019, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
I don't know anything about the weapon. There are no markings whatsoever, not even the usual .45 ACP that I would expect to see. It looks to be newish with some updated parts. Maybe it is C&R but no way for me to know for sure.

....

Librarian stated that he/she thought an FFL would be able to DROS it. I just don't see how that would fly. Is that how you folks see it?
Given what you say, I walk rapidly in the opposite direction. I see two possibiltles:
  • It's a home built made without any markings; or

  • it was initially made by a federal licensee (manufacturer or custom gunsmith), properly marked and later polished smooth by someone.

In the former case, you have some serious legal issues under California law.

In the latter case, possession would be a serious federal crime.

It's true that under federal law serial numbers weren't required until after 1968. But generally the sorts pre-1968 guns you'd be likely to see legitimately without serial numbers are things like cheap shotgun, cheap rimfire rifles, or cheap handguns from foreign manufacturers.But if gun had a manufacturer's serial number, possession of the gun with the number altered, defaced or removed would be a federal crime.

Without being absolutely sure of the provenance of the gun, and that everything was kosher, I'd want no part of it.
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Old 09-06-2019, 1:32 PM
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Take all the parts off it and toss in dumpster or cut in two. Sell all the parts.
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2019, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Take all the parts off it and toss in dumpster or cut in two. Sell all the parts.
Slow your roll homey. Haven't bought it yet
Seriously though, while cool it's not worth the blowback
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  #14  
Old 09-06-2019, 2:02 PM
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Buy only the parts and get a frame. No paperwork for you. Or just walk away.
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  #15  
Old 09-06-2019, 2:08 PM
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Sounds like a homebuild, which you should pass on. There are however WW1/WW2 lunchbox 1911's floating around that have no serials. They can be worth a decent amount of money to the right collector. Here is one for sale:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...-pistol-45-acp
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Last edited by superhondaz50; 09-06-2019 at 2:12 PM..
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  #16  
Old 09-06-2019, 4:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Since the 1990s, it has been CA illegal to transfer ownership of a handgun that does not have serial number or a CA DOJ identification number engraved on it. [PC 27530]

Starting 01-01-2019, it is CA illegal to transfer ownership of non-exempt self-made firearms in CA. [PC 29180(d)]



Penal Code 27530
No person shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership in a handgun unless the firearm bears either:
(a) The name of the manufacturer, the manufacturer’s make or model, and a manufacturer’s serial number assigned to that firearm.
(b) The identification number or mark assigned to the firearm by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 23910.

Penal Code 23910
The Department of Justice, upon request, may assign a distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm whenever the firearm lacks a manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification. Whenever the manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification or a distinguishing number or mark assigned by the department has been destroyed or obliterated, the Department of Justice, upon request, shall assign a distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm in accordance with Section 29182.

Penal Code 29180
(d)(1) The sale or transfer of ownership of a firearm manufactured or assembled pursuant to this section is prohibited.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to the transfer, surrender, or sale of a firearm to a law enforcement agency.
(3) Any firearms confiscated by law enforcement that do not bear an engraved serial number or other mark of identification pursuant to subdivision (b) or (c), or a firearm surrendered, transferred, or sold to a law enforcement agency pursuant to paragraph (2) shall be destroyed as provided in Section 18005.
(4) Sections 26500 and 27545, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, do not apply to the transfer, sale, or surrender of firearms to a law enforcement agency pursuant to paragraph (2).
I don't think 'since the 1990s' is correct - the DOJ was authorized to provide numbers by 2016's AB 857, effective 2017
Quote:
23910.

...
(Amended by Stats. 2016, Ch. 60, Sec. 3. (AB 857) Effective January 1, 2017.)
and that all appears to apply to manufacture of firearms. Granted, that possibility has been raised here - a 'normal' 1911 really should have a SN.
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- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #17  
Old 09-06-2019, 4:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
There was never a serial number nor was one removed.
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