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  #1  
Old 07-09-2019, 2:54 PM
justMike justMike is online now
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Default Church and State....Evangelicals in Crisis

Religious thinking has no exemption from cognitive dissonance. May in fact be a requirement but YMMV. Food for thoughts for sure.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...crisis/593353/
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Old 07-09-2019, 3:14 PM
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What is YMMV?
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Old 07-09-2019, 3:27 PM
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Default Church and State....Evangelicals in Crisis

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What is YMMV?

Your mileage may vary.


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Old 07-09-2019, 3:44 PM
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Just more liberal mind crap.

"How can Evangelicals support Trump?" asks the pedophiles and sex addicts.
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Old 07-09-2019, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Just more liberal mind crap.

"How can Evangelicals support Trump?" asks the pedophiles and sex addicts.


Um, yeah, sure!

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...s-13588038.php
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Old 07-09-2019, 4:44 PM
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So for the left if we don't vote for the most corrupt person ever to hold office and actually sold interest in America to the highest bidder we're not good Christians? Yeah, I don't think so. Trump loves us and we love him and that ain't gonna change.
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Old 07-09-2019, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
So for the left if we don't vote for the most corrupt person ever to hold office and actually sold interest in America to the highest bidder we're not good Christians? Yeah, I don't think so. Trump loves us and we love him and that ain't gonna change.
Maybe you should just say who you are speaking of. Maybe you're speaking of the past. Maybe you are blanket speaking of any non Republican candidate to emerge from the Democratic side. Prejudge much?

So the sins of Trump are justifiable just because you refuse to consider him anything but God given. You know, there is a reason the Founding Fathers decided to have no official state backed religion, no matter
how much you want to believe otherwise. They knew the dangers of a Theocratic State all too well, and its would be adherents such as you.

Matt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Last edited by justMike; 07-09-2019 at 5:11 PM.. Reason: Jesus's words added
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Old 07-09-2019, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Religious thinking has no exemption from cognitive dissonance. May in fact be a requirement but YMMV. Food for thoughts for sure.





https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...crisis/593353/


He's not wrong. Though once you start to see evangelicals a political category instead of a religious one, then things become clearer. You can have either mature, virtuous Christian engagement, or enthusiastic support for Trump, but not both.

At best, Trump was a necessary evil at a time of great fear, which is the opposite of faith.


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Old 07-09-2019, 5:21 PM
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The Democrat party platform goes against my Christian beliefs: abortion, homosexuality, stealing (illegal immigration) so I HAVE to vote Republican, faults and all.
Trump just happens to be the lessor of all the evils.
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Old 07-09-2019, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Maybe you should just say who you are speaking of. Maybe you're speaking of the past. Maybe you are blanket speaking of any non Republican candidate to emerge from the Democratic side. Prejudge much?

So the sins of Trump are justifiable just because you refuse to consider him anything but God given. You know, there is a reason the Founding Fathers decided to have no official state backed religion, no matter
how much you want to believe otherwise. They knew the dangers of a Theocratic State all too well, and its would be adherents such as you.

Matt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Yes. The most absolute Christian thing that could be done in 2016 was defeat Hiallary. And nice ad-hominem attack but it won't work.
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Old 07-09-2019, 5:40 PM
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For the use of Matt 7vs 5, and the sins of Trump you mention, DO YOU suppose that, perish the thought, God Forgave Mr Trump somewhere along the way? I do, and almost daily pray for him, per St Paul's instructions to Timothy. You want your sins forgiven justmike? Don't hold Trump's past sins against him, I want mine forgiven, and I do not judge him, its a instruction found somewhere in a book I read once and often.

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Old 07-09-2019, 6:09 PM
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Fortunately for Jesus, he never had to choose between the 'lesser of two evils'.
Your beliefs have led you to say that perceived less bad is the same as good.
My beliefs have no such blinders. BTW, I didn't vote for Clinton or Trump, but I did vote.

I seriously question whether your Spiritual education has given you any powers of discernment.
If you have any spiritual discernment, it appears to be noticeably clouded by your political thinking.
Watch what you believe politically, it may be the result of lies.


"When it comes to controlling human beings, there is no better instrument than lies. Because you see, humans live by beliefs.
And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts." -- Michael Ende
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Old 07-09-2019, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Fortunately for Jesus, he never had to choose between the 'lesser of two evils'.

Your beliefs have led you to say that perceived less bad is the same as good.

My beliefs have no such blinders. BTW, I didn't vote for Clinton or Trump, but I did vote.



I seriously question whether your Spiritual education has given you any powers of discernment.

If you have any spiritual discernment, it appears to be noticeably clouded by your political thinking.

Watch what you believe politically, it may be the result of lies.





"When it comes to controlling human beings, there is no better instrument than lies. Because you see, humans live by beliefs.

And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts." -- Michael Ende

Alright, Jack, now your arrogance is starting to show. Seeing that you are fairly convinced that not voting was the holiest of the options?

There were no good choices last time around. None. Fact, Jack.

I'm not sure where your highly self-regarded discernment came from, but I wouldn't confuse it with wisdom.

So tell us, what should the righteous have done? Every time they enter the voting booth, what should be the governing spiritual principle?

I'll wait.


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Old 07-09-2019, 6:42 PM
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Garand Hunter,
I like the way you come across and you sound like how a good Christian ought to be. However, I have yet to become a 'good Christian', as may be clear from my posts here.


Psalm 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Doesn't sound like Trump, or any politician really. A person described in the psalm would not survive (literally) politics. God must be very flexible with his 'servants'

That said, I'm bowing out of this thread and you all can dismiss any and all thoughts and writings that may or may not be 'true' (for you) that don't harmonize
with your pre established thinking. New views, even very clear (and accurate) ones, are the last thing y'all want. Keep walking in the clouds.
justMike
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Old 07-09-2019, 7:21 PM
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So let me put a dagger in this thread.

From a Christian standpoint, suppose we have the following candidates:

A. Morally upright; morally sound policies
B: Morally upright; morally unsound policies
C: Morally unsound; morally sound policies
D: Morally unsound; morally unsound policies

From a Christian and /or biblical standpoint (those are not always the same), which should we choose? If A is available vs any other the choice is obvious. But this is never the case.

What pairing best reflects the last election?

B vs C? B vs D? B vs B? We could spend all night sorting it out.

For the sake of argument, Suppose that it is between B (Hillary) and C (Trump).

Biblically what should we do? Or, what saith the Lord?

Should we consider the impact on Christians? Non-Christians?

Suppose that all evangelicals stayed home and Hillary won, which would have led to a generation of legal opinions maximizing abortion access and minimizing Christian conscience. What would the public have thought of evangelicals? Would Jesus have made that decision?

These things are unclear. Which is why I think everyone voted by whatever light they possessed at the time. And for whatever the errors of judgment that were made, the blood of Christ will cover them all.

Peace.




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Old 07-09-2019, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Garand Hunter,

I like the way you come across and you sound like how a good Christian ought to be. However, I have yet to become a 'good Christian', as may be clear from my posts here.





Psalm 1 King James Version (KJV)



1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.



2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.



3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.



4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.



5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.



6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.





Doesn't sound like Trump, or any politician really. A person described in the psalm would not survive (literally) politics. God must be very flexible with his 'servants'



That said, I'm bowing out of this thread and you all can dismiss any and all thoughts and writings that may or may not be 'true' (for you) that don't harmonize

with your pre established thinking. New views, even very clear (and accurate) ones, are the last thing y'all want. Keep walking in the clouds.

justMike


See my last post and tell me what is right.


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Old 07-09-2019, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by justMike View Post
Maybe you should just say who you are speaking of. Maybe you're speaking of the past. Maybe you are blanket speaking of any non Republican candidate to emerge from the Democratic side. Prejudge much?

So the sins of Trump are justifiable just because you refuse to consider him anything but God given. You know, there is a reason the Founding Fathers decided to have no official state backed religion, no matter
how much you want to believe otherwise. They knew the dangers of a Theocratic State all too well, and its would be adherents such as you.

Matt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
It is the left who accuses Trump of alleged sins with no real proof. And it is the left that says Evangelicals should "Judge" Trump by the alleged but unproven sins.

All while the left complains that the Evangelicals have no right to judge them these same sins when they themselves commit them.

In fact the left is working hard to normalize legalize everything from extramarital sex and prostitution, pedophilia, drugs, gambling, abnormal sexual practices and 4th term murder.

The Hypocrisy is the left the left telling Evangelicals they must "Judge" anyone but them.

Were there pedophiles in churches?? You bet. A Church is an institution which can be corrupted just like any other institution.

If all Evangelicals are to be judged by the actions of a few then we should apply the same standard to the left but we don't.

Be careful who you label hypocrite.

Judging is more a Progressive thing.
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Old 07-09-2019, 8:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
It is the left who accuses Trump of alleged sins with no real proof. And it is the left that says Evangelicals should "Judge" Trump by the alleged but unproven sins.



All while the left complains that the Evangelicals have no right to judge them these same sins when they themselves commit them.



In fact the left is working hard to normalize legalize everything from extramarital sex and prostitution, pedophilia, drugs, gambling, abnormal sexual practices and 4th term murder.



The Hypocrisy is the left the left telling Evangelicals they must "Judge" anyone but them.



Were there pedophiles in churches?? You bet. A Church is an institution which can be corrupted just like any other institution.



If all Evangelicals are to be judged by the actions of a few then we should apply the same standard to the left but we don't.



Be careful who you label hypocrite.



Judging is more a Progressive thing.


Judging is biblical.

Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist. All judged. The question that everyone doesn't understand is "what is judgment"?


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Old 07-09-2019, 9:52 PM
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What blows my mind is that they keep assuming that Christians are single issue voters. That only morality matters to them and if they vote for an imperfect person then they must be comprimising their ideals. The concept that just maybe some voters consider the entirety of the candidate doesn't occur to them. Personally, I don't care about his morals, that's between him and God. I care about what he does in office. I don't vote for the man, I vote for the policy.
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:24 PM
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Religious fundamentalism has no place in politics. Period.
Full stop.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:12 PM
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Religious fundamentalism has no place in politics. Period.
Full stop.


Neither does secular fundamentalism.




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Old 07-10-2019, 4:22 AM
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It always cracks me up. Lefties try to ban all things Christian until you disagree with them. Then they quote scripture at you. Hillarious.
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Old 07-10-2019, 4:28 AM
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Religious fundamentalism has no place in politics. Period.
Full stop.
My religion guides all aspect of my life including my politics. Fortunately for all of us, the Contstitution "Trumps" your opinion. All pun intended.
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Old 07-10-2019, 4:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Just more liberal mind crap.

"How can Evangelicals support Trump?" asks the pedophiles and sex addicts.



THIS!



/thread
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Old 07-10-2019, 6:13 AM
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I delight in posing this question to Adventists. For those who don't know, Adventists don't smoke, drink, and many are vegan/vegetarians who believe that the best chance of getting into Heaven is by not eating meat.

Question.
Who do you want living next to you as a neighbor? A non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian? Or, a cigar smoking, drinking meat eater, or a guy who smokes cigarettes, drinks, and is cheating on his wife?

Every single one will pick the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarians.

To which I will tell them, congratulations, your new neighbor is Adolf Hitler. The other two were Winston Churchill and Franklyn Roosevelt.

One must be careful on choosing based on outward appearances.
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Old 07-10-2019, 8:14 AM
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I can relate to some of the article, as I have experienced it personally. Fellow Christians praise Trump for being a Christian and a moral man. I see no evidence of that. It’s bizarre.

Voting for him is a completely different thing, however. I wasn’t thrilled with either choice last time around, but believed Trump as president would be least detrimental to Christians.
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Old 07-10-2019, 8:27 AM
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For 1911ronin, very good Bro, stay tight.

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Old 07-10-2019, 9:46 AM
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For GOD plenty of times in the Bible used ungodly men to do his will, insert which ever president you want.

Now I don’t know trumps heart and if he is truly saved but he has been used by GOD to do his will prove me wrong. For even evil men’s deeds are used for GOD’S will.

Check your hearts because the time of the falling away has begun and men are lead astray because of their pride and ego.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:20 AM
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Trump's lawyers can defend him. None of us have to.

Cognitive dissonance is so pervasive that people don't even know that they're doing it. Trying to reason with people has to be entertaining or for profit because there's little benefit to those being schooled in rational thought -- it's a mostly a waste of time.

I've largely given up any hopes of being purely rational when it comes to religion and politics. It's an imaginary bar set way too high for humans. I'll settle for my biases and beliefs being of the least harm to others and of benefit to myself and my family.

Trump and Evangelicals are odd bedfellows, to be sure. But it's more about Republican tribalism than rational choice. He may be an entitled, bumbling a-hole who lucked in to the Whitehouse. But he's THEIR entitled, bumbling a-hole who lucked into THEIR Whitehouse. And that matters much more than whatever he does, thinks or says. Democrats would do the same if they were in the same position. If Clinton had won the last election, no doubt they would have done exactly that.

We humans aren't nearly as advanced as rational as we think we are. Tribalism is still the order of the day.
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Old 07-11-2019, 4:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyordeath View Post
For GOD plenty of times in the Bible used ungodly men to do his will, insert which ever president you want.

Now I don’t know trumps heart and if he is truly saved but he has been used by GOD to do his will prove me wrong. For even evil men’s deeds are used for GOD’S will.

Check your hearts because the time of the falling away has begun and men are lead astray because of their pride and ego.
I don't know how many times I have heard, "Trump's the Antichrist, and going to bring about the end of the world!"
I thought that is what Christians wanted.

Just heard that Trump was going to sign a National Sunday Law, a particularly Adventist bugaboo.
Apparently these people don't listen to the news to know that his son in law is a practicing Jew, and his daughter converted to Judaism when she married him. So, I highly doubt that Trump will sign something like that.
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Old 07-11-2019, 8:42 AM
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I don't know how many times I have heard, "Trump's the Antichrist, and going to bring about the end of the world!"
I thought that is what Christians wanted.
I recently watched GOOD OMENS, a British show on either Netflix or Amazon. It's a comedy about how the powers of Hell are sending the Antichrist to start the great cosmic war that both God and Satan want to fight. But an angel and a demon, who like earth and humans, work together to try and stop the war from happening at all and end up working against both God and Satan. It's highly irreverent so if you're not into that sort of thing, don't bother watching it. But it had me in stitches. Makes you think, though...
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:26 PM
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https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...-the-criminals

Jesus Between the Criminals


Finally, Jesus speaks. The second criminal had said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replies, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Jesus decides who goes to heaven. And it turns out to be very good news for this criminal that Jesus is so different from him. Because Jesus is innocent and bears God’s judgment (not just Rome’s judgment), he can make a way for the criminal to be with him, forever. Their difference is the criminal’s salvation. Jesus dies so the criminal can live. He bears hell on the cross so the criminal doesn’t need to bear it forever.
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Old 07-30-2019, 3:37 PM
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Excellent Bro Harry Ono, on the mark !

Psalm 1
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Old 07-30-2019, 5:49 PM
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[...]You can have either mature, virtuous Christian engagement, or enthusiastic support for Trump, but not both. At best, Trump was a necessary evil at a time of great fear, which is the opposite of faith.
I didn't vote for DJT. I figured here in CA, it was a wasted vote, so I voted for the Libertarian. My thinking-- a little ironic, Libertarians taking FEC money-- was that I could at least use my vote to support something I regard as positive.

However, I will admit that frequently checking the beautiful Web interface the NYT had put together, likely an attempt to dissuade left-coast voters from voting at all, gave me increasing amounts of joy and relief as election night wore on.

I know many committed believers-- mature, Godly people, many who have walked with God for years-- who voted for DJT and were not disappointed by his victory. I think it could be a false dichotomy to take that position: mature, virtuous, Christian engagement or enthusiastic support for DJT. What kind of mature, virtuous, Christian would delight in the ascendency of a corrupt, power-worshipping person like HRC? At what point does support of DJT become enthusiastic?

The author of the article in the OP self-identifies as a Christian, and works for what is known as a conservative think-tank, but he doesn't quite tell us his solution; rather, I think he overstates the impact of the election on the church and the larger society. I think he also overstates the degree to which individuals like Ralph Reed represent the invisible church in the US, and the degree to which rank-and-file members of the invisible church support DJT. He quotes one of his mentors:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wehner
In speaking about the widespread, reflexive evangelical support for the president, Coppock—who is theologically orthodox and generally sympathetic to conservatism—lamented the effect this moral freak show is having, especially on the younger generation. With unusual passion, he told me, “We’re losing an entire generation. They’re just gone. It’s one of the worst things to happen to the Church.
I don't disagree that young people are walking away from the Church, but I think the election of DJT has little to do with it. It's been going on for some time; there are many contributing factors. You could survey church-going millennials and ask them who Ralph Reed is, and I'd guess very few would actually know. If they don't know, why would they care if Ralph Reed supports DJT or not?

Many self-identifying Christians here in the US tend to conflate the kingdom of America with the Kingdom of God, and are willing to buy into the idea that American exceptionalism is somehow a byproduct or result of national righteousness, and that patriotism is a Christian virtue. What proportion of these people are in the invisible church?
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Old 08-06-2019, 4:51 PM
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I guess the OP must be correct: Evangelical Leaders now spelling DJT's name "Tr_mp" as a sign of reverence.
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Heh, good satire.
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This would be the definition of Idolatry!
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This would be the definition of Idolatry!
It was the Babylon Bee!
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It was the Babylon Bee!
He never reads links, don't worry about it.

Democrats Propose Creation Of National Trump Voter Registry
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He never reads links, don't worry about it.

Democrats Propose Creation Of National Trump Voter Registry
Thanks!
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