Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 08-20-2018, 8:56 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released."

With many of the rear takedown solutions out there, when the upper is cracked open, the rifle will not cycle, will not reload the next round therefore it wouldn't be considered a semiautomatic rifle. If it's not considered a semiautomatic rifle then you are not bound to meet the fixed magazine requirements, therefore you are removing a magazine from a piece of metal that is not by law considered a semiautomatic rifle.
If you're going to cite CCRs, you should cite all pertinent portions of the code.


Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)
With the upper hinged on the lower, it is still a mechanically whole firearm and thus still a semi auto firearm. Of course, if you think differently, that's fine. All that matters is the opinion of 58 different DA's in CA. Are you positive each one of them shares your opinion and interpretation of the code?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:00 AM
alexantics's Avatar
alexantics alexantics is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Livermore
Posts: 49
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I like the play on words to completely benefit the Kingpin. Yes not being subtle here but when you remove something or someone from a building they’re no longer in the building. So if I have a maglock and a standard takedown pin am I actually removing the pin to rotate the receivers apart?

Humor me but in my gif above I AM removing the kingpin completely from the firearm. Rotating the receiver away and then dropping the magazine. By your definition the Kingpin is the ONLY legal takedown pin out there because it is actually removed.
I totally agree!

I love the Kingpin with the Maglock gen2.

"SS 5471(n)
“Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed."

As far as the "would require the rear take down pin to be removed" There is no other Pin that I have seen on the market that is fully removable except for the kingpin! Non of the options out there for a take down pin completely remove the pin from the lower receiver! So why are members trying to take this so literally and make an issue of it?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:02 AM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
If you're going to cite CCRs, you should cite all pertinent portions of the code.

With the upper hinged on the lower, it is still a mechanically whole firearm and thus still a semi auto firearm. Of course, if you think differently, that's fine. All that matters is the opinion of 58 different DA's in CA. Are you positive each one of them shares your opinion and interpretation of the code?
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)

IMO you have to meet hh FIRST before moving to (1), (2) on so on.
If it's not considered a semi auto based on the language in hh, then the rest of the section which is specific to semi autos doesn't apply.
__________________

Last edited by guest1; 08-20-2018 at 9:08 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:14 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)

IMO you have to meet hh FIRST before moving to (1), (2) on so on.
If it's not considered a semi auto based on the language in hh, then the rest of the section which is specific to semi autos doesn't apply.
LOL. I suggest you ask an attorney if the way you are interpreting laws and codes is correct. I can cite far too many CA laws that even you would disagree with your interpretation of how a law is written and read.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:15 AM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
LOL. I suggest you ask an attorney if the way you are interpreting laws and codes is correct. I can cite far too many CA laws that even you would disagree with your interpretation of how a law is written and read.
Are you an attorney?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:18 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Are you an attorney?
No, I am not. I have spoken with more than a few attorneys and judges about how to read laws though. If everything after the first part of a law or regulation is irrelevant, why was it included?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 08-20-2018, 9:25 AM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
No, I am not. I have spoken with more than a few attorneys and judges about how to read laws though. If everything after the first part of a law or regulation is irrelevant, why was it included?
I'll keep it simple.... if hh is applicable/relevant, then (1), (2) .. are additional conditions that would apply for clarification. If hh is irrelevant or does not apply, then additional conditions don't either.
maybe my logic is off but that's how many see it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-20-2018, 11:55 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
I'll keep it simple.... if hh is applicable/relevant, then (1), (2) .. are additional conditions that would apply for clarification. If hh is irrelevant or does not apply, then additional conditions don't either.
maybe my logic is off but that's how many see it.
Are you willing to risk being the test case and possibly loosing your freedom and many of your rights? If so, that's your choice.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:30 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
In other words, the definition does not imply that it is actually legal to remove the magazine while the firearm is still a semi auto firearm.
So you're telling me that by following § 5471(n) to "disassemble" an AR action such that I can remove the mag, I am breaking the law by following § 5471(n) which tells me how to legally remove the mag? (n) explicitly states this is the legal method.
I agree with you that if they did not include 5471(n), specifically with language describing how to remove an AR mag, then removing the mag with the front pin installed would be illegal. But they did include (n) and specifically described the method of mag removal while teh front pin is still installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Whomever is prosecuting a case against someone with a kingping needs to articulate how separating the upper from the lower via a kingpin is inherently different than sliding the original style take down pin and separating the upper from the lower.
No, they only have to show you can remove the mag without removing the rear take-down pin. That's a much more simplified test.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:43 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexantics View Post
So why are members trying to take this so literally and make an issue of it?
Pedantics is basically all we do here. Welcome to Calguns.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 08-20-2018, 1:01 PM
broadside's Avatar
broadside broadside is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 726
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
So you're telling me that by following § 5471(n) to "disassemble" an AR action such that I can remove the mag, I am breaking the law by following § 5471(n) which tells me how to legally remove the mag? (n) explicitly states this is the legal method.
I agree with you that if they did not include 5471(n), specifically with language describing how to remove an AR mag, then removing the mag with the front pin installed would be illegal. But they did include (n) and specifically described the method of mag removal while teh front pin is still installed.


No, they only have to show you can remove the mag without removing the rear take-down pin. That's a much more simplified test.
Define removing, because unless you move the detent out of the way and pull the pin from the lower completely, you have only adjusted its position, not removed it.

Regardless, the requirement is to disrupt the action. Separating by removing the rear take down pin is only an example of one way to do that.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 08-20-2018, 1:13 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Regardless, the requirement is to disrupt the action.
No. See post 18.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 08-20-2018, 1:35 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
So you're telling me that by following § 5471(n) to "disassemble" an AR action such that I can remove the mag, I am breaking the law by following § 5471(n) which tells me how to legally remove the mag? (n) explicitly states this is the legal method.
I agree with you that if they did not include 5471(n), specifically with language describing how to remove an AR mag, then removing the mag with the front pin installed would be illegal. But they did include (n) and specifically described the method of mag removal while teh front pin is still installed.


No, they only have to show you can remove the mag without removing the rear take-down pin. That's a much more simplified test.
No, I'm telling you that CRC 5471 does not tell you it's OK to remove the fixed magazine just by removing the rear takedown pin. I'm telling you that that is the definition of how a magazine must be attached to make it a fixed magazine (of course it could be welded or otherwise permanently installed as well). I'm saying that if you remove a fixed magazine from a semi auto, centerfire rifle or any handgun that would qualify as an AW by that method, it is still a complete semi auto and you would be manufacturing an AW every time you did so.

Quote:
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
The above shows that it would still be "mechanically whole" and therefor still a semi auto without any magazine at all.

I know this goes against what we all want to believe but, I'm not willing to bethe test case and don't want to influence anyone else to be one either.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 08-20-2018, 2:02 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
No, I'm telling you that CRC 5471 does not tell you it's OK to remove the fixed magazine just by removing the rear takedown pin.
I don't know how to make this any simpler/clearer. "the magazine may be REMOVED". Not "installed'. REMOVED.

Quote:
(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be REMOVED.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 08-20-2018, 2:05 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
I don't know how to make this any simpler/clearer. "the magazine may be REMOVED". Not "installed'. REMOVED.
"BEFORE the magazine may be removed" but, it doesn't say that it may be removed by anyone. Sure, it can legally be removed by someone who is exempt from the AW laws. I don't deny that. I do not believe that it allows anyone to remove a fixed magazine and create an AW without a permit or exemption to do so. Why not call each of the 58 DA's in Ca and get their opinion? It will only take one of them to charge you or someone else with a felony for illegally manufacturing an AW. Are you willing to take the risk of being charged with a felony?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV

Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 08-20-2018 at 2:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-20-2018, 2:13 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
"BEFORE the magazine may be removed" but, it doesn't say that it may be removed by anyone. Sure, it can legally be removed by someone who is exempt from the AW laws. I don't deny that. I do not believe that it allows anyone to remove a fixed magazine and create an AW without a permit or exemption to do so. Why not call each of the 58 DA's in Ca and get their opinion? It will only take one of them to charge you or someone else with a felony for illegally manufacturing an AW. Are you willing to take the risk of being charged with a felony?
WOW!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 08-20-2018, 2:21 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
"BEFORE the magazine may be removed" but, it doesn't say that it may be removed by anyone.
Now you're completely in the realm of fantasy. PCs and CCRs apply to everyone, unless explicit exemptions are carved out for exempt classes. Such as law enforcement:
2015-2016 Senate Bill No. 1446
Quote:
32405. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, possession of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, or a sworn federal law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of that officer’s duties.
or FFL dealers
Quote:
32410. Section 32310 does not apply to the possession, sale, or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
So, yes, pursuant to CCR 5471(n), the magazine may be removed by anyone. You are so incredibly wrong, you're inventing your own rules for how laws apply and you don't even know it.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 08-20-2018, 3:45 PM
broadside's Avatar
broadside broadside is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 726
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
No. See post 18.
How is "disrupted" not the same as "interrupted" in my post?

Please indicate where removal of the rear take down pin is required and not just given as one possible example of compliance
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 08-20-2018, 4:32 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
Now you're completely in the realm of fantasy. PCs and CCRs apply to everyone, unless explicit exemptions are carved out for exempt classes. Such as law enforcement:
2015-2016 Senate Bill No. 1446

or FFL dealers


So, yes, pursuant to CCR 5471(n), the magazine may be removed by anyone. You are so incredibly wrong, you're inventing your own rules for how laws apply and you don't even know it.
Really? Are you positive enough about that to risk your freedom and rights?

I really want to be wrong about this but, I have to play it safe until someone becomes a test case or 58 different DA's all say it's legal.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 08-20-2018, 5:12 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Really? Are you positive enough about that to risk your freedom and rights?
Unequivocally.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 08-20-2018, 5:13 PM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Please indicate where removal of the rear take down pin is required and not just given as one possible example of compliance
I explained that in post 18, hence my reference to it

EDIT: notice how they could have said "disassembly could involve removing" and instead wrote "disassembly would require"

Last edited by tenemae; 08-20-2018 at 5:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 08-20-2018, 7:21 PM
lordmorgul lordmorgul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 845
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released."

With many of the rear takedown solutions out there, when the upper is cracked open, the rifle will not cycle, will not reload the next round therefore it wouldn't be considered a semiautomatic rifle. If it's not considered a semiautomatic rifle then you are not bound to meet the fixed magazine requirements, therefore you are removing a magazine from a piece of metal that is not by law considered a semiautomatic rifle.

Which is not legally encompassing: the law defines semi automatic as also something clearly designed to be semi automatic... provided all the parts are present and attached to each other it doesn’t matter that it cannot currently function as semi automatic, it is. Until the parts are separated... which rendering it nonfunctional is not.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 08-20-2018, 7:45 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
Which is not legally encompassing: the law defines semi automatic as also something clearly designed to be semi automatic... provided all the parts are present and attached to each other it doesn’t matter that it cannot currently function as semi automatic, it is. Until the parts are separated... which rendering it nonfunctional is not.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / CRPA / FPC / USCCA member
And separating the upper and lower by the rear takedown makes it no longer parts "attached to each other".
Again, hh clearly states that a semi auto has to be able to load, fire, extract and reload. If this criteria or parts of it is not met, then it's not a semi auto.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 08-21-2018, 6:31 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
And separating the upper and lower by the rear takedown makes it no longer parts "attached to each other".
Again, hh clearly states that a semi auto has to be able to load, fire, extract and reload. If this criteria or parts of it is not met, then it's not a semi auto.
Again,

Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
to clarify what a semi auto is they added (hh) (1). If it is a mechanically whole semi auto merely lacking a magazine, it's still a semi auto. Why else would they add (1) if not to clarify (hh)?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 08-21-2018, 8:23 AM
broadside's Avatar
broadside broadside is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 726
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
I explained that in post 18, hence my reference to it

EDIT: notice how they could have said "disassembly could involve removing" and instead wrote "disassembly would require"
(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.

The bold part is the regulation/definition. The rest is only one example of that definition.

And what is "removed"? Since standard procedure for an AR15 only adjusts the position of the rear take down pin and it is still present in the receiver, you have not removed it from the firearm. So even the example is incorrect. If the intent is to make it so that the upper lifts away from the lower making the action not function correctly, then the kingpin is compliant in that.

We all fight here for letter of the law when it works for us and we will also fight for the spirit of the law when that works for us.

Here, the letter of the law (or regulation) is "detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function"

The spirit of the law is that the "upper is lifted away from the lower using front pin as pivot" then that is also met.

What if (n) said: "Circle" is a 2 dimensional object with a continuous fixed radius. For example, for pencil drawings, it is a line that is drawn using a compass.

Does that mean I can't trace the bottom of a tin can with my pencil?
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 08-21-2018, 9:24 AM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
Code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ҚФꙦꙦѤ ꙆꚈҊԂ ™
Posts: 1,133
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
What if (n) said: "Circle" is a 2 dimensional object with a continuous fixed radius. For example, for pencil drawings, it is a line that is drawn using a compass.

Does that mean I can't trace the bottom of a tin can with my pencil?
If (n) said "for example, a pencil drawing would require a compass" then, yes. By letter of the law you can't use a tin can and must use a compass.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 08-21-2018, 4:13 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Again,
to clarify what a semi auto is they added (hh) (1). If it is a mechanically whole semi auto merely lacking a magazine, it's still a semi auto. Why else would they add (1) if not to clarify (hh)?
(1) applies to a semiautomatic, but if you dont have a semiautomatic per the hh definition then (1) is not applicable. Its not that complicated.

Here is an example:
hh an "iphone" is a smart phone made by Apple Corp and must have an Apple Corp logo on the back. It should also have a screen and be able to make calls and connect to the internet.
(1) an iPhone physically whole and merely missing an iOS is still considered an iphone

So if you have a smart phone that makes calls, has a screen and gets you online that is not made by Apple then it's not an "iphone" there for (1) having an iOS or not doesn't matter.
__________________

Last edited by guest1; 08-21-2018 at 4:21 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 08-21-2018, 4:48 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
(1) applies to a semiautomatic, but if you dont have a semiautomatic per the hh definition then (1) is not applicable. Its not that complicated.

Here is an example:
hh an "iphone" is a smart phone made by Apple Corp and must have an Apple Corp logo on the back. It should also have a screen and be able to make calls and connect to the internet.
(1) an iPhone physically whole and merely missing an iOS is still considered an iphone

So if you have a smart phone that makes calls, has a screen and gets you online that is not made by Apple then it's not an "iphone" there for (1) having an iOS or not doesn't matter.
LOL. It is still a semi auto. No where in (hh) does it say it's not a semi auto if the action is partially separated.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 08-21-2018, 4:55 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
LOL. It is still a semi auto. No where in (hh) does it say it's not a semi auto if the action is partially separated.
hh says it should be able to cycle and reload. Split open upper can not cycle and reload.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 08-22-2018, 6:32 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
hh says it should be able to cycle and reload. Split open upper can not cycle and reload.
and, a complete firearm is capable of doing just that. With the action hinged but still attached, it is still a complete firearm even though it is in a condition that it isn't ready to fire, it is still is capable of doing so without adding any parts to it. I don't see anything in (hh) hat says it must be able to fire and cycle while the action is open, do you? If your interpretation was correct, any firearm with the slide or bolt locked to the rear would not be a semi auto until the bolt or slide was released. Is that what you're trying to say?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 08-22-2018, 7:01 AM
broadside's Avatar
broadside broadside is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 726
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
If (n) said "for example, a pencil drawing would require a compass" then, yes. By letter of the law you can't use a tin can and must use a compass.
Well then no standard AR15 can possibly comply with this regulation using a standard/typical take down process, even though it is highly likely that this it the process that was intended.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 08-22-2018, 7:11 AM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
and, a complete firearm is capable of doing just that. With the action hinged but still attached, it is still a complete firearm even though it is in a condition that it isn't ready to fire, it is still is capable of doing so without adding any parts to it.
I'm not a lawyer and the following is my interpretation....

A "complete firearm" and a "Semiautomatic" by definition are 2 different things. hh is clearly defining what makes a firearm, a Semiautomatic firearm by being able to fire, extract, reload and fire again. All of these events must take place in order for the firearm to be considered a Semiautomatic. You're gobbling up the "firearm/Rifle" and "Semiautomatic" into one, that's your main mistake IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I don't see anything in (hh) hat says it must be able to fire and cycle while the action is open, do you
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released....

hh says in order for the firearm to be considered a Semiautomatic, it should for the umpteenth time "able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released". Does a cracked open upper allow you to operate the firearm in this matter with all the steps mention repeatedly? NO, therefore its not a Semiautomatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
If your interpretation was correct, any firearm with the slide or bolt locked to the rear would not be a semi auto until the bolt or slide was released. Is that what you're trying to say?
Thats where additional condition (2) comes to play
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm.
If the firearm is a Semiautomatic per hh with a bolt hold back, then (2) applies. if its not a Semiautomatic per hh, then bolt hold back doesn't apply.

I think you're not willing to understand or accept hh verbatim. In order for a FIREARM/RIFLE to be a Semiautomatic, it needs to meet certain criteria per hh. If the Rifle doesn't meat those criteria, then its not a Semiautomatic. (1), (2), (3) and (4) apply to a Semiautomatic rifles only.
__________________

Last edited by guest1; 08-22-2018 at 7:13 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 08-22-2018, 7:29 AM
protohyp's Avatar
protohyp protohyp is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,769
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

Who’s on first?!?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
COUPON CODE : "protohyp" for 8% off at checkout on AR Maglock and Freedom Follower products



www.adaptivetacticalgear.com

www.armaglock.com

IN ADDITION:
Purchase any 2 locking kits and get 20% off
Purchase any 3 locking kits and get 25% off
Purchase any 4 or more locking kits and get 30% off



Kingpin and Hyperswitch FAQ and troubleshoot[/B]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1428078
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:23 AM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
I'm not a lawyer and the following is my interpretation....

A "complete firearm" and a "Semiautomatic" by definition are 2 different things. hh is clearly defining what makes a firearm, a Semiautomatic firearm by being able to fire, extract, reload and fire again. All of these events must take place in order for the firearm to be considered a Semiautomatic. You're gobbling up the "firearm/Rifle" and "Semiautomatic" into one, that's your main mistake IMO.



(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released....

hh says in order for the firearm to be considered a Semiautomatic, it should for the umpteenth time "able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released". Does a cracked open upper allow you to operate the firearm in this matter with all the steps mention repeatedly? NO, therefore its not a Semiautomatic.



Thats where additional condition (2) comes to play
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm.
If the firearm is a Semiautomatic per hh with a bolt hold back, then (2) applies. if its not a Semiautomatic per hh, then bolt hold back doesn't apply.

I think you're not willing to understand or accept hh verbatim. In order for a FIREARM/RIFLE to be a Semiautomatic, it needs to meet certain criteria per hh. If the Rifle doesn't meat those criteria, then its not a Semiautomatic. (1), (2), (3) and (4) apply to a Semiautomatic rifles only.
I am willing to understand and accept (hh) verbatim. No where in (hh) does it say that the firearm needs to be in a functional configuration, it just needs to be able to function as a semi auto with all the parts that are currently attached to it. So, if it is hinged open but otherwise complete, it can function as a semi auto once the action is closed.

I'm also willing to accept the interpretation of 58 different DAs in CA if every one of their interpretations differs from mine. Until then, I'll play it safe because, I don't want to risk being the test case.

Are you willing to understand and accept that my interpretation is even remotely possibly correct?
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:45 AM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I am willing to understand and accept (hh) verbatim. No where in (hh) does it say that the firearm needs to be in a functional configuration, it just needs to be able to function as a semi auto with all the parts that are currently attached to it. So, if it is hinged open but otherwise complete, it can function as a semi auto once the action is closed.

I'm also willing to accept the interpretation of 58 different DAs in CA if every one of their interpretations differs from mine. Until then, I'll play it safe because, I don't want to risk being the test case.

Are you willing to understand and accept that my interpretation is even remotely possibly correct?
Looking at the bold part above, please separate the time between open and closed. when the firearm is open, its no longer a semiautomatic. it can remain like that for as long as one chooses to and since it's not a semiautomatic, one can remove the magazine because you are allowed to remove the magazine from a non semiautomatic rifle. You then are in compliance with the law if you insert a magazine into a firearm that is not considered a semiautomatic because it can not function as one per hh while open. Once the magazine is in and you close the upper, then you have a functioning semi automatic rifle that must comply with hh and now has a fixed magazine.

You have the right to play it super safe and that's your decision but please stop with this 58 DAs interpretation scare tactics and let people make their own decisions
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:12 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Looking at the bold part above, please separate the time between open and closed. when the firearm is open, its no longer a semiautomatic. it can remain like that for as long as one chooses to and since it's not a semiautomatic, one can remove the magazine because you are allowed to remove the magazine from a non semiautomatic rifle. You then are in compliance with the law if you insert a magazine into a firearm that is not considered a semiautomatic because it can not function as one per hh while open. Once the magazine is in and you close the upper, then you have a functioning semi automatic rifle that must comply with hh and now has a fixed magazine.

You have the right to play it super safe and that's your decision but please stop with this 58 DAs interpretation scare tactics and let people make their own decisions
Why should I stop giving an opinion that differs from yours? I haven't asked you to stop promoting your opinion even though it might get someone is serious legal trouble. How is someone supposed to make an educated decision if they don't have all the facts? Your unwillingness to hear anything that differs from your opinion is very similar to that of an anti not wanting to hear the truth. Maybe you don't understand what bantering back and forth like this has done to promote legal firearms ownership in CA? Are you aware similar discussions on this forum are directly responsible for bringing OLLs into CA in the first place?

BTW, I don't see anything in (hh) that says the firearm must be in a configuration where it can function as a semi auto at that moment. It merely defines a semi auto as having the ability to fire and cycle. Even with the action hinged open, it is a complete semi auto that can fire and cycle once closed without adding any parts to it. Now, if you opened it, removed the BCG and then removed the mag, it clearly would not be a semi auto until the BCG was reinstalled.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV

Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 08-22-2018 at 12:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:16 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Why should I stop giving an opinion that differs from yours? I haven't asked you to stop promoting your opinion even though it might get someone is serious legal trouble. How is someone supposed to make an educated decision if they don't have all the facts? Your unwillingness to hear anything that differs from your opinion is very similar to that of an anti not wanting to hear the truth. Maybe you don't understand what bantering back and forth like this has done to promote legal firearms ownership in CA? Are you aware similar discussions on this forum are directly responsible for bringing OLLs into CA in the first place?
9 out of 10 members disagree with your point of view here and on a dozen other discussions on Calguns covering this subject
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:20 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
9 out of 10 members disagree with your point of view here and on a dozen other discussions on Calguns covering this subject
Sure, and 8 out of 10 haven't actually read the regs and just accept the interpretation of others. However, even if 9 out of 10 gun owners agree with your interpretation, does that mean 9 out of 10 DAs will too? I doubt it (it's probably a lot less than that) and, it still leaves several DAs in CA that would prosecute.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:21 PM
guest1's Avatar
guest1 guest1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 926
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Sure, and 8 out of 10 haven't actually read the regs and just accept the interpretation of others. However, even if 9 out of 10 gun owners agree with your interpretation, does that mean 9 out of 10 DAs will too? I doubt it (it's probably a lot less than that) and, it still leaves several DAs in CA that would prosecute.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:25 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 43,139
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Sorry that I used your "logic" against your argument but, you felt the need to introduce numbers and, they obviously support my position.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:01 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.