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  #1  
Old 09-13-2019, 1:03 PM
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bergmen bergmen is offline
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Default Reducing Hammer Spring Weight on .22 LCRx

I have a new LCRx and discovered right away that the hammer spring is too stiff.

I have read elsewhere on this forum that the stock spring is 16# and reducing this to 13# (Ruger says 12# is minimum) solves this problem.

Trouble is, I have no idea how to do this. How is the 16# measured? 16# pressure to compress the spring during it's normal travel?

To reduce this, do I cut the spring? I have not disassembled the gun but I am assuming it uses coil springs like my Ruger SA revolvers, correct?

The gun spring companies I checked with (Wolff, Brownells, etc.) do not have any spring kits for the LCRx, so it looks like I will need to do this myself.

Any advice?

Dan
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2019, 1:37 PM
shafferds shafferds is online now
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buy the springs already made. don't mess with the original unless you know what you are doing.
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  #3  
Old 09-13-2019, 1:48 PM
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Check Wolff or MCarbo. You should replace, not cut.
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Old 09-13-2019, 1:59 PM
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Should be a 16 lb spring.
Which means 16 lbs pressure is needed to compress it one inch.

Something to consider though is spring preload.
Let's keep the numbers even to explain the concept easier.
Let's say that 16 lb spring has to be compressed 1/2" to fit in place on the gun.
The spring is siting there with 8 lbs preload.
You pull the trigger, let's say that it compresses the spring another full inch.
It takes 24 lbs of pressure to compress the spring, 16 lbs per inch plus 8 lbs preload.
If you reduce the spring length so it only has to compress 1/4" to fit in place, taking 4 lbs of pressure, then your trigger pull weight is reduced to 20 pounds.

I'm much more in favor of keeping the full power spring in place with shortened length / less preload than using a softer spring.

Soft springs (often also are shorter for less pre-load) can result in light strikes and sluggish hammer movement.

I'd get an extra 16 lb spring or two as back ups, then play with reducing the preload amount until you find a reasonable trigger pull that still has quick hammer travel and strong strikes on the cases.
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Old 09-13-2019, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
Should be a 16 lb spring.
Which means 16 lbs pressure is needed to compress it one inch.

Something to consider though is spring preload.
Let's keep the numbers even to explain the concept easier.
Let's say that 16 lb spring has to be compressed 1/2" to fit in place on the gun.
The spring is siting there with 8 lbs preload.
You pull the trigger, let's say that it compresses the spring another full inch.
It takes 24 lbs of pressure to compress the spring, 16 lbs per inch plus 8 lbs preload.
If you reduce the spring length so it only has to compress 1/4" to fit in place, taking 4 lbs of pressure, then your trigger pull weight is reduced to 20 pounds.

I'm much more in favor of keeping the full power spring in place with shortened length / less preload than using a softer spring.

Soft springs (often also are shorter for less pre-load) can result in light strikes and sluggish hammer movement.

I'd get an extra 16 lb spring or two as back ups, then play with reducing the preload amount until you find a reasonable trigger pull that still has quick hammer travel and strong strikes on the cases.
Good info, thanks! So, I should look for a spring to replace it that is 13# (this has been shown to work reliably and very much lessens the force to cock the hammer).

I had checked at the spring companies I mentioned with no luck but I think I can inquire with specific requirements now.

Dan
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Old 09-13-2019, 2:46 PM
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Well, so far I'm striking out. Neither Wolff, MCarbo or Brownells have springs for the LCRx in rimfire. Wolff has springs for centerfire LCRx only.

Any thoughts on where else I could look?

Dan
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Old 09-13-2019, 3:47 PM
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Contact Triggershims.com to see if their SP101-22 springs will work with the LCR. Doesn't appear that anyone makes a dedicated set for the LCR.

https://triggershims.com/



I've used them for my SP101 project a while back (see signature). ojisan even made a guest appearance there. Actually, bergmen, so did you. LOL
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Old 09-13-2019, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by code_blue View Post
Contact Triggershims.com to see if their SP101-22 springs will work with the LCR. Doesn't appear that anyone makes a dedicated set for the LCR.

https://triggershims.com/



I've used them for my SP101 project a while back (see signature). ojisan even made a guest appearance there. Actually, bergmen, so did you. LOL
I just sent them an e-mail with my request. I'll report back what I find out. Thanks for the suggestion!

Dan
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Old 09-13-2019, 5:05 PM
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I'll throw out a wild idea you could try in the meantime.

You could get one of those hand / finger exercisers, the kind with four different keys that your fingers press down against spring tension to strengthen your fingers.

I know it's not the easiest, quickest solution but it worked for Charles Bronson when he was The Mechanic.
I think he just used a lump of clay but the principles the same you're making your fingers stronger so that's 16 lb doesn't seem so bad.

That said, if you can find a spring made for your gun that would be easier route.
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Old 09-13-2019, 8:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shafferds View Post
don't mess with the original unless you know what you are doing.
I think he has already proven that he does not simply by starting this thread.
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  #11  
Old 09-14-2019, 7:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sealocan View Post
I'll throw out a wild idea you could try in the meantime.

You could get one of those hand / finger exercisers, the kind with four different keys that your fingers press down against spring tension to strengthen your fingers.

I know it's not the easiest, quickest solution but it worked for Charles Bronson when he was The Mechanic.
I think he just used a lump of clay but the principles the same you're making your fingers stronger so that's 16 lb doesn't seem so bad.

That said, if you can find a spring made for your gun that would be easier route.
That would work for me (and I have done that in the past). I bought this originally since my wife has trouble with her Taurus 94 and my Ruger SP-101 cocking the hammer. The LCRx is something like 17 oz. in weight where the SP-101 is 30 oz. so it was a lot lighter as well.

I do understand that rimfires require a heavier hammer blow but I have also found that Ruger over-does it with some of their spring weights. I have adjusted trigger return springs on some of my Blackhawks but those are torsion coil springs and fairly easy to bend the ends to lessen tension. The hammer spring being compression coil is not so easy to modify. I would rather exchange it.

Dan
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Old 09-14-2019, 7:30 AM
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Well, I just got an e-mail from Lance at Triggershims.com and he says he can't help me with my request. He suggested calling Dave at Wolff and maybe he can help.

Another thing I can do is remove the hammer spring on the LCRx and measure it (O.D, wire diameter, length) and shop spring companies. There are several companies (I am a Mechanical Engineer by profession) that have thick catalogs of springs of all shapes and sizes. They typically will ship small quantities for testing purposes as samples or with minimal prices.

Dan
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Old 09-17-2019, 5:41 PM
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I have a bunch of Wolff coil springs, a master pack. Send me the 3 dimensions you noted for the factory spring and I will see if I have anything lighter for you to try and send them out.

In the mean time, here is one guys solution. He claims a 25% reduction in trigger pull. You might get Ruger to send you a free factory spring to try this technique on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN09puNPKY

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  #14  
Old 09-17-2019, 5:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
I have a bunch of Wolff coil springs, a master pack. Send me the 3 dimensions you noted for the factory spring and I will see if I have anything lighter for you to try and send them out.

In the mean time, here is one guys solution. He claims a 25% reduction in trigger pull. You might get Ruger to send you a free factory spring to try this technique on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN09puNPKY

Outstanding, thanks! I'm on the road on business right now, probably won't get to this until this weekend.

Thanks for the video link, this will be golden when I disassemble the LCRx!

Stay tuned...

Dan
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
I have a bunch of Wolff coil springs, a master pack. Send me the 3 dimensions you noted for the factory spring and I will see if I have anything lighter for you to try and send them out.
Okay, I just got the hammer spring out. That video was very helpful but since the LCRx has an external hammer, extraction of the hammer/spring assembly was pretty easy. I'll use that video to put it back together since there are some tricky steps.

Here are the spring dimensions:

Overall free length: 2.125"
Outside Diameter-: .220"
Inside Diameter--: .148"
# of Coils---------: 25
Wire Diameter---: .033"

Measured wire diameter is more accurate than O.D minus I.D. because of the calipers used.

I really appreciate you checking your spring stock to see if something might work. I have not rigged up a spring tension gauge but may do that to confirm the 16 lb. rating I've been told this is. This is pretty easy to jury-rig.

Dan
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:31 PM
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I don't know about little tiny springs but larger springs are often shot peened which prevents cracking and makes the springs last much longer.

Interesting how this was discovered.
Back in the early days of engines, intake and exhaust valve spring breakage was a common problem, usually caused by the tough working conditions and impurities in the metal which lead to the cracking.
One day a valve spring maker had accidentally left a batch of new valve springs outside where they got rained on and then the outer surfaces rusted.
The maker shot peened the springs to get the rust off, then sold the springs.
These springs had a much lower failure rate and lasted much longer as the surface was compressed which reduced cracking.
It took a while to figure out what was the difference in that batch of springs, but finally it was found that the peening process is what made the difference.

In the LCR mod vid, the reason the guy is warning about spring cracking or breakage is that his thinning process removes that outer hard layer and leaves rough scratched surfaces which is what cracks need to form.
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Old 09-21-2019, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
I don't know about little tiny springs but larger springs are often shot peened which prevents cracking and makes the springs last much longer.

Interesting how this was discovered.
Back in the early days of engines, intake and exhaust valve spring breakage was a common problem, usually caused by the tough working conditions and impurities in the metal which lead to the cracking.
One day a valve spring maker had accidentally left a batch of new valve springs outside where they got rained on and then the outer surfaces rusted.
The maker shot peened the springs to get the rust off, then sold the springs.
These springs had a much lower failure rate and lasted much longer as the surface was compressed which reduced cracking.
It took a while to figure out what was the difference in that batch of springs, but finally it was found that the peening process is what made the difference.

In the LCR mod vid, the reason the guy is warning about spring cracking or breakage is that his thinning process removes that outer hard layer and leaves rough scratched surfaces which is what cracks need to form.
Another thing that guy is doing in the video is disturbing the circluar shape of the coiled wire. Coil compression springs are nothing more that torsion springs in a compact circular shape. I imagine a flattened side of the wire would flex completely differently than a circular cross-section, possibly inducing fatique cracks.

I'm going to rig up a spring gauge (pretty easy to do) to confirm the original spring specification to be sure that it is indeed 16#. Once I measure it, I can go from there.

Dan
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:23 AM
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Ok I have some candidates for you to try, I will PM for your details.

The free length does not have to be the same nor the coil count. I have gotten ‘lighter’ springs for some applications that ended up being longer free length.

The free length may affect preload, full compression length etc, I am no spring engineer. But what I do know is you can cut a longer spring shorter but there is no adding length to a cut spring, so I would cut these longer and experiment, perhaps reducing length in small increments. Of course be sure the hammer can cock before the spring reaches full compression.

I would also get a bunch of 22 rounds stripped of bullets and powder, ready for primer-only tests after you find a trigger pull that feels right. That will keep you from having to go to the range and mess with the spring there to confirm which setup gives you reliable ignition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Another thing that guy is doing in the video is disturbing the circluar shape of the coiled wire. Coil compression springs are nothing more that torsion springs in a compact circular shape. I imagine a flattened side of the wire would flex completely differently than a circular cross-section, possibly inducing fatique cracks.

I'm going to rig up a spring gauge (pretty easy to do) to confirm the original spring specification to be sure that it is indeed 16#. Once I measure it, I can go from there.

Dan
I have a 100+ yr old firing pin spring in a Mauser Broomhandle that had a portion of it’s coil length flat ground around the circumference when the factory was fitting it. It is still going strong Slightly different spring application though, it is a rebounder. It is also built way stronger than it ever needed to be so that may have something to do with it.
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Old 09-22-2019, 2:56 PM
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Okay, more details:

I rigged up a compression spring measuring gauge using a scale used to measure the weight of fish 0-50#). I drilled a small diameter hole in the end of a 16d nail, found a 1/4" OD, 3/16" ID spacer and clamped it in a machinists vice. I taped a six inch scale next to the nail head, threaded the spring onto the nail and inserted the assembly into the spacer in the vice.

I used some stainless steel safety wire to thread through the hole in the nail and make a loop to engage the hook on the scale and pulled it until I measured a 1" compression. The weight of the spring is not 16#, it is 12#. I checked this over about 5 measured compressions and got the same figure.

So I have a 12# spring, not a 16# spring. So I will want to go down to 10#, maybe 9# and test it.

Also, SkyHawk: Excellent suggestion to pull some bullets and test with empty cases - good idea!

Dan
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Old 09-22-2019, 4:16 PM
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^^ the factory may measure the spring force as that required to achieve the compression distance the spring is at when the hammer is cocked. This is how recoil springs are rated for instance. They do not rate them as lb/in.

If you take a 16lb 1911 recoil spring, it only requires about 3.25lb to compress the first inch from free length. However it takes ~16 lbs to compress it 5” which is about the amount it is compressed in recoil, including the ~3” of preload.

Anyhow, so long as you use the same instrument the same way when evaluating these, it will give you something to go on.

It would be interesting though to note the difference in free length vs the compressed length when cocked, then see how much force it takes to compress the stock spring that amount on your scale. Because that will be the measurement that matters where the rubber meets the road, or in this case the hammer face meets the firing pin.

In your case you have observed a 12lb/in spring rate. To get 16lb from that would assume the spring is compressed 1.33333” total at hammer cock.

Knowing the compressed dimension at hammer cock will also help you decide what free length you might use for a lighter spring. And keep in mind these springs do take a set over time so evaluating one that has been preloaded a long time vs one that has never been used does add a twist.
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Old 09-22-2019, 6:09 PM
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Excellent pionts SkyHawk. I will take these into consideration as I proceed.

As an Engineer, gathering information is my credo...

Dan
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Old 10-06-2019, 1:37 PM
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Okay I have an update. First, I want to thank SkyHawk for generously sending three springs out of his collection for me to try. Unfortunately, two of the three springs were not compatible because of ID or OD differences. One of his springs did fit (ID and OD).

THEN, I discovered that Wolff offered a spring kit for the LCRx (centerfire only, they stated in bold) with 7#, 8# and 9# springs, stock spring being 10#. So I ordered the set figuring that ID, OD and overall length would be the same as my 12# stock LCRx spring.

They arrived in a couple of days and sure enough, dimensions were compatible, next step was to confirm the spring weights. I rigged up the same test I did with my stock LCRx .22 spring and confirmed the 9# spring is exactly 9# at 1" compression. I figured it was worth a try.

So, yesterday I re-assembled the LCRx with the 9# spring. BTW, while testing, I did notice that the spring would coil-bind with an additional 1/8" of compression so there was not much potential for adding spring strength by pre-loading if that became necessary.

Putting this thing back together is a purple SOB, let me tell you. The video that SkyHawk linked was golden in showing the sequence but it still takes a safe-crackers touch to get this thing back together. It took me a dozen tries since at 70 years old, my manual dexterity is not what it used to be (duh!). I finally got it together though.

I then preceeded to do a garage test using the excellent idea of pulling the bullets on .22 ammo and dumping the powder. I found 15 Winchester Target rounds that I wouldn't miss and did the bullet-ectomy on them.

Great test. 14 out of the fifteen fired in single action mode even though the dents on the rim did not look that robust. That was good enough to head to the range.

I only brought one type of .22 ammo (should have brought more), Federal "Target Grade Performance" or "AutoMatch) .22 Long Rifle.

Well, shooting at first was fine. A few FTFs experienced in single action mode (maybe one out of two 16 round cylinders). Inspecting the brass still showed light strikes so I was not too encouraged.

Then I tried double action and it was a bust. 6 out of 8 were FTF. When I took a closer look, I discovered that the length of the hammer throw was much less in DA vs. SA. When I got home I measured the difference and the DA hammer releases 0.160" shorter than SA at full cock. There is the obvious problem.

So, it is back to the drawing board. Next I want to configure the one spring that SkyHawk sent to a 10# pull rating and try that. The other option is to obtain a stock 10# LCRx spring from Ruger and try that.

So that's the update. More later in the next chapter...

Dan
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Old 10-06-2019, 8:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
I have a new LCRx and discovered right away that the hammer spring is too stiff.
How exactly did you determine this?
Did you bring this problem to the attention of Ruger?
They need to know if a gun they are producing is unsafe.
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Old 10-07-2019, 6:54 AM
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How exactly did you determine this?
Did you bring this problem to the attention of Ruger?
They need to know if a gun they are producing is unsafe.
This is a known issue with the LCR and LCRx, many threads on this, a common complaint. My wife could not cock the hammer (arthritis in her thumbs) and I found it very difficult. I had a similar problem with my SP-101 in .22 and had a gunsmith (who was well aware of the problem) do her magic with it. Very much improved.

That 'smith has moved on so I decided to take this on myself. Still working on it and if I don't succeed I'll put the original spring back in and deal with it.

BTW, did you watch the video? This addresses the issue in a different way.

Dan

Last edited by bergmen; 10-07-2019 at 7:03 AM..
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Old 10-22-2019, 7:19 PM
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Well, here is the latest: I was undergoing this experiment to make it easier for my wife to shoot the LCRx since the stock spring was too strong for her to cock the gun for single action. I had her try it with the 9# spring after I got back from the range and she still could not cock it no matter how hard she tried. We tried a couple of different techniques and - no go.

So instead of experimenting with a 10# spring I just threw in the towel and put the stock 12# spring back in. It is stiff but I can handle that just fine. I also know that I will have reliable ignition to enjoy shooting this fine revolver.

So I want to thank SkyHawk for his generous assistance even though we were not successful. It was worth the try.

Dan
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