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  #1  
Old 09-19-2019, 9:08 AM
Tmckinney Tmckinney is offline
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Default I hate idiots who don't know the law!

I have to rant somewhere:

I can't stand it when people, especially ATF agents and Cal DOJ types, dont know how to read the laws they are supposed to enforce and don't know what is or isn't an antique rifle or antique firearm.

If the receiver on a rifle was made before 1899, its an antique and you can mail it to me. Period. No other restrictions. Doesn't matter if I can buy the ammo and its bolt action.

Wanted to buy an antique Mauser from a California shop and they wont mail it to me, even though they will mail it to anyone out of state. Not their fault as they were instructed by agents during a licence inspection that they had to do so or lose their licence. Fighting is just not worth the money the few instate mail order sales generates.

There are enough limitations on gun transfers without the bureaucrats making up ones that don't.

Only reason I even want the rifle is that to hunt you need to have non lead in CA and nobody makes non lead 7.65 Argentine and I dont reload (too many hobbies). But they do make 7mm mauser in lead free

I just want to hunt with an antique-keep the government away--bolt action rifle. Is that too much to ask?

OK, rant over. Wish I felt better, but I don't.

And I will not name the shop. The "dont give an inch" crowd can pester someone else
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Old 09-19-2019, 9:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmckinney View Post
I have to rant somewhere:

I can't stand it when people, especially ATF agents and Cal DOJ types, dont know how to read the laws they are supposed to enforce and don't know what is or isn't an antique rifle or antique firearm.

If the receiver on a rifle was made before 1899, its an antique and you can mail it to me. Period. No other restrictions. Doesn't matter if I can buy the ammo and its bolt action.

Wanted to buy an antique Mauser from a California shop and they wont mail it to me, even though they will mail it to anyone out of state. Not their fault as they were instructed by agents during a licence inspection that they had to do so or lose their licence. Fighting is just not worth the money the few instate mail order sales generates.

There are enough limitations on gun transfers without the bureaucrats making up ones that don't.

Only reason I even want the rifle is that to hunt you need to have non lead in CA and nobody makes non lead 7.65 Argentine and I dont reload (too many hobbies). But they do make 7mm mauser in lead free

I just want to hunt with an antique-keep the government away--bolt action rifle. Is that too much to ask?

OK, rant over. Wish I felt better, but I don't.

And I will not name the shop. The "dont give an inch" crowd can pester someone else
CA is so fouled up itís confusing to many so they take the Better Safe than Sorry approach, imagine what CA might do if they were found in the wrong. Itís the World we live in so get use to it. Itís the World we ALLOWED to get like this by complacency on the part of many.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:09 AM
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Yep, CADOJ has many FFL's buffaloed into being extra conservative with the laws for worry of having their license pulled if they screw up even a little.

For a business owner who's livelihood depends on their FFL license status, many feel compelled to err on the side of caution when dealing with this states sometimes rapid DOJ.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:35 AM
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Have it shipped to Audiophil in AZ and then have him ship it to you.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:10 AM
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Or maybe it's the shop who doesn't want to trouble with shipping?

It's a easy blame switch to just say "DOJ" says don't ship, than to tell you they don't want to ship...
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Or maybe it's the shop who doesn't want to trouble with shipping?

It's a easy blame switch to just say "DOJ" says don't ship, than to tell you they don't want to ship...
Precisely.

I've run into plenty of shops that decide that doing any transactions other than FTF DROS'd transactions is "uncomfortable" for them. Especially for some low dollar transaction. Much easier to decline the transaction, blame the authorities, and then sleep better at night.

Just as a matter of interest, OP, what kind of Mauser is it?
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Have it shipped to Audiophil in AZ and then have him ship it to you.
There are auction houses that refuse to ship any gun to California and I've thought about doing a "trans-shippment". What is Audiophil's deal?
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
There are auction houses that refuse to ship any gun to California and I've thought about doing a "trans-shippment". What is Audiophil's deal?
1. Seller won't ship to CA FFL dealer.
2. Have seller ship to out-of-state FFL.
3. Out-of-state FFL then ships to CA FFL dealer.

Audiophil is a well known AZ FFL dealer that acts as a "middle man" FFL.
^"middle man" FFL being an out-of-state FFL that knows CA laws, make firearms CA legal, and is willing to reship to CA FFL dealers.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
There are auction houses that refuse to ship any gun to California and I've thought about doing a "trans-shippment". What is Audiophil's deal?
Not sure what his current price is, but he is still doing it and advertising it. You can PM him here. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/p...o=newpm&u=9807

EBR also does it
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1257757
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Old 09-19-2019, 1:06 PM
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I know you shouldnt have to do this, and dont know if there is any type of documents you must provide to the dealer that would prohibit this, but since it's an antique and apparently can be sent directly to you can a friend out of state order it for you and then ship it to you when they receive it?
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Old 09-19-2019, 2:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Not sure what his current price is, but he is still doing it and advertising it. You can PM him here. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/p...o=newpm&u=9807

EBR also does it
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1257757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
1. Seller won't ship to CA FFL dealer.
2. Have seller ship to out-of-state FFL.
3. Out-of-state FFL then ships to CA FFL dealer.

Audiophil is a well known AZ FFL dealer that acts as a "middle man" FFL.
^"middle man" FFL being an out-of-state FFL that knows CA laws, make firearms CA legal, and is willing to reship to CA FFL dealers.

Thanks, guys. I'll check with phil.
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Old 09-19-2019, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kingransom View Post
I know you shouldnt have to do this, and dont know if there is any type of documents you must provide to the dealer that would prohibit this, but since it's an antique and apparently can be sent directly to you can a friend out of state order it for you and then ship it to you when they receive it?
Interesting idea.

Since a pre-1899 firearm is not a regulated item, and no 4473 is involved, I would doubt "straw purchase" rules would apply
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Old 09-20-2019, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Or maybe it's the shop who doesn't want to trouble with shipping?

It's a easy blame switch to just say "DOJ" says don't ship, than to tell you they don't want to ship...
+1

About a year and a half ago I called a handful of Nor Cal shops which used a similar rationale regarding receipt of a standard, original configuration, c&r SKS from out of State. Whether ignorant of the new laws or simply confused by the language, those who refused always passed the buck to the feds.
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Old 09-20-2019, 6:00 AM
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Back when CMP was releasing the 1911, my local gun range/FFL owner told me they couldnít do it because their DOJ agent told them it was off roster and didnít believe the C&R status. He said he was disappointed because he wanted one too. So I went to another shop and got it. Brought it back to the range and showed the range owner. He was so bewildered that I could get an off roster C&R Sad, really.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:41 PM
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Just saw this today on gunbroker. Seller is in California.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2019, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 19K View Post


Just saw this today on gunbroker. Seller is in California.
Youíd think people that are in the business of selling C&R/Antique would understand arguably the most important law about antiques

I donít think theyíd sell a Pre-1899 Mosin as an antique because it still has readily available ammo, but there are plenty of legal antique mosins
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Old 09-20-2019, 1:08 PM
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The other thing is that every Mauser that is identified by a date prior to 1899 was not necessarily made before 1899 and hence not necessarily an antique.

Not all 1891 Argentine, nor 1895 Chilean Mausers, for example, were made before 1899. It can take some digging to determine which were an which weren't and many gunshops aren't interested in doing that kind of research.
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Old 09-20-2019, 1:20 PM
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In all fairness, I have bought many guns from many shops and have yet to see 2 with the same understandings of the law. Nevertheless, it is their license, and if they prove to be too hard to do business with, go elsewhere. This is a reflection of the Calif gun law confusions, and the oppressive nature of the DOJ
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Old 09-21-2019, 3:06 AM
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I hate idiots who knock on gun owners for being cautious but dont say anything about the AHs who wrote the dumb laws.
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Old 09-23-2019, 6:51 PM
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1. the shop knows the law, they just don't want to fight the CA ss hats who dont and are threatening them.

2. since they will ship it to any other state, it is not a shipping issue.

3. Mauser marked Loewe Berlin are antiques, they took that name off before 1899

4. Availability of commercial ammo isnt the issue and has no bearing on a receiver made before 1899. The point behind the ammo rule is to stop the sale of a new 1895 Winchester or similar (i.e. a copy of an antique) without the waiting period and background check.

5. I had a direct phone call once with an ATF agent who was the inspector/overseer of a shop I wanted to have ship me a rifle. She kept telling me that since you could buy ammo for the gun, it wasn't an antique. No matter how many time I tried to explain the disjunctive nature of the definition, she just thought that such a "loophole" could not exist. She said, "but then you could go out and buy ammo right away for this thing." I really wanted to tell her that was the GD F'ing plan, but chose not to. Shop didn't want to risk pissing her off and being closed down, even if they are right and she was wrong.

6. 10 days, 100 bucks, and the CA DOJ knowing what I have are all downsides to this crap, but they are less to me than the fact that the law says one thing and they are trying to make me do something else.
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Old 09-29-2019, 12:56 PM
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dont feel so bad, i have had two shops refuse to do a ppt case they state.
" did not buy from us so can not do the transfer".

one called a sks a assault weapon and a fed felony to even own it... and this was ten years back. told me to get it. and me. out of his store and not return.
so these "problems" have been ongoing for decades.
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Old 10-07-2019, 9:24 PM
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dont feel so bad, i have had two shops refuse to do a ppt case they state.
" did not buy from us so can not do the transfer".

one called a sks a assault weapon and a fed felony to even own it... and this was ten years back. told me to get it. and me. out of his store and not return.
so these "problems" have been ongoing for decades.
That is against the law, could get them shut down.
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Old 10-07-2019, 9:47 PM
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i remember when sportsmans guide had a bunch of mausers but they were selling them for $399 cause they were antiques
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Old 10-08-2019, 7:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tmckinney View Post
That is against the law, could get them shut down.
Many shops do the same... They "think" they're illegal.

Turners wouldn't do a ppt on one of my Chinese SKSs around 20 years ago cause it had a bayonet.... They claimed it's an AW in California.. 100% FUD.. Neither would OC Armory..

They "think" they're right and there is nothing you can do about it other than go somewhere else..

Last edited by Dan_Eastvale; 10-08-2019 at 7:18 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 4:32 PM
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I bought a #94 Mauser today and when i asked the owner told me the fact of it having already been entered on his book was the reason he couldn't sell as antique.
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Old 10-11-2019, 11:21 PM
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Cash and carry of C&R pistols is what gets a lot of FFLs uncomfortable. I've done a cash and carry at one shop, then at the same shop to do another and was nearly refused until one of the other people corrected him. That same dude really freaks out about stuff I noticed. I ended up using the C&R/COE combo to buy 2 pistols at the same time (the 2nd being non C&R). It was sort of a taste of what it feels like living in a free state.
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Old 10-13-2019, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Many shops do the same... They "think" they're illegal.

Turners wouldn't do a ppt on one of my Chinese SKSs around 20 years ago cause it had a bayonet.... They claimed it's an AW in California.. 100% FUD.. Neither would OC Armory..

They "think" they're right and there is nothing you can do about it other than go somewhere else..
Sometimes it's just an excuse to get out of doing a PPT.
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