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  #1  
Old 08-01-2018, 4:33 PM
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Default ARMaglock Gen 2 w/ Kingpin Legality?

I think it's clear that the ARmaglock Gen 1 or 2 satisfies the new fixed magazine definition (SS 5471(m), but the does the inclusion of the Kingpin negate the requirement of SS 5471 since it appears that the action is not "interrupted"?

Quote:
SS 5471(m)
“Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. An ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
Quote:
SS 5471(n)
“Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
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Old 08-01-2018, 5:06 PM
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What exactly is illegal about it?

I can remove the Kingpin completely and drop the magazine with the upper pivoted away from the lower receiver.




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Old 08-13-2018, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
What exactly is illegal about it?

I can remove the Kingpin completely and drop the magazine with the upper pivoted away from the lower receiver.




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I see what he means. With the Kingpin installed, the bolt can be locked back and the mag released. The bolt can then be released and the hammer dropped without closing the receiver halves. Might be a tad gray regarding interrupting the action....
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Old 08-13-2018, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
I see what he means. With the Kingpin installed, the bolt can be locked back and the mag released. The bolt can then be released and the hammer dropped without closing the receiver halves. Might be a tad gray regarding interrupting the action....


It isn’t grey at all. With the bolt locked back try and try all you want to press the trigger and get that hammer to move. It isn’t going to happen. With a bolt over a hammer it is render 100% inoperable. With the AR Maglock this is the only system that allows this to happen. With the other systems the bolt must be dropped sending it back into a firing/operational condition and this is the only way those mags can be dropped.

Furthermore the magazine with the Kingpin/AR Maglock combo even with the bolt locked back CANNOT be released until you activate the Kingpin to open the receiver and then will you be able to depress the Maglock to release the magazine.


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Old 08-13-2018, 2:51 PM
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Ok, take it to the next step. Obviously, a hammer cannot fall on a locked back bolt. But with the bolt locked back and the receivers separated, I can release the bolt and THEN trip the hammer, without closing the receiver halves. Not advisable to fire this way of course, but the bolt and fire control mechanism can be operated without closing the receivers with the Kingpin installed. After all, that's the point....
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Old 08-13-2018, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
Ok, take it to the next step. Obviously, a hammer cannot fall on a locked back bolt. But with the bolt locked back and the receivers separated, I can release the bolt and THEN trip the hammer, without closing the receiver halves. Not advisable to fire this way of course, but the bolt and fire control mechanism can be operated without closing the receivers with the Kingpin installed. After all, that's the point....


What you’re describing above can happen no matter what takedown pin I have. It can happen with a standard takedown pin if I hold the upper receiver in a position for it to happen. The kingpin allows it to have bolt hold back magazine release AND full takedown to release the magazine. No other system does.


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Old 08-13-2018, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
What you’re describing above can happen no matter what takedown pin I have. It can happen with a standard takedown pin if I hold the upper receiver in a position for it to happen. The kingpin allows it to have bolt hold back magazine release AND full takedown to release the magazine. No other system does.


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I know, that's why I bought the set. But reading the quote in the OP it sounds like that might not be kosher. It's the interpretation of "the action has been interrupted and will not function" that is troubling, as I can make mine function while the Kingpin has the receivers split.
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Old 08-13-2018, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
I know, that's why I bought the set. But reading the quote in the OP it sounds like that might not be kosher. It's the interpretation of "the action has been interrupted and will not function" that is troubling, as I can make mine function while the Kingpin has the receivers split.


Again if you drop the magazine with the bolt back that’s all you need to render it so that it won’t function. I don’t think the OP understands that but I sure hope that you do.


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  #9  
Old 08-13-2018, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I don’t think the OP understands that
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I understand that perfectly, but that was not the question in the OP...
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Old 08-13-2018, 9:14 PM
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Umm... isn't this entirely academic? I.e, isn't CCR 5471 only relevant to the registration of firearms? 5460 was intended to make the definitions in 5471 apply to PC 30515. But 5460 was withdrawn. So we have no further elaboration of "disassembly of the firearm action" in regards to 30515. It is currently incredibly vague. However, playing devil's advocate and assuming 5471 definitions did apply to the penal code...
Quote:
SS 5471(n)
“Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
If you're not removing the rear pin, I don't see how you're compliant with the 5471 definition of "Disassembly".
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Old 08-13-2018, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
Umm... isn't this entirely academic? I.e, isn't CCR 5471 only relevant to the registration of firearms? 5460 was intended to make the definitions in 5471 apply to PC 30515. But 5460 was withdrawn. So we have no further elaboration of "disassembly of the firearm action" in regards to 30515. It is currently incredibly vague. However, playing devil's advocate and assuming 5471 definitions did apply to the penal code...


If you're not removing the rear pin, I don't see how you're compliant with the 5471 definition of "Disassembly".
Well, if that quoted requirement isn't really a requirement, then yes, this discussion is moot and I will happily take my Kingpin equipped rifle out to the range. I don't even play a lawyer on TV, though, and would hope someone with more knowledge than I can chime in as to whether the whole "inoperable fire control system" is truly required or not.
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Old 08-13-2018, 9:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
and would hope someone with more knowledge than I can chime in as to whether the whole "inoperable fire control system" is truly required or not.
The 5471 definition explicitly states that "the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function". So, yes, it is required. Where the argument seems to be happening is on the definition of inoperable since the state left its elaboration somewhat vague.
However, I will reiterate: If you're not removing the rear pin, I don't see how you're compliant with the 5471 definition of "Disassembly". One could argue that the state is merely giving an example of what disassembly of an AR-15 might entail, but it reads clearly to me that the state is giving a definition for a two part receiver-- for example an AR-15. I.e, if you have an AR-15, disassembly would require removing the rear take-down pin. The "would" being used in conjunction with the hypothetical "if" in "if it was an ar-15". So it doesn't read as a suggestion of one method for an AR-15, it reads as a requirement for an AR-15.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
The 5471 definition explicitly states that "the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function". So, yes, it is required. Where the argument seems to be happening is on the definition of inoperable since the state left its elaboration somewhat vague.
However, I will reiterate: If you're not removing the rear pin, I don't see how you're compliant with the 5471 definition of "Disassembly". One could argue that the state is merely giving an example of what disassembly of an AR-15 might entail, but it reads clearly to me that the state is giving a definition for a two part receiver-- for example an AR-15. I.e, if you have an AR-15, disassembly would require removing the rear take-down pin. The "would" being used in conjunction with the hypothetical "if" in "if it was an ar-15". So it doesn't read as a suggestion of one method for an AR-15, it reads as a requirement for an AR-15.
I like the play on words to completely benefit the Kingpin. Yes not being subtle here but when you remove something or someone from a building they’re no longer in the building. So if I have a maglock and a standard takedown pin am I actually removing the pin to rotate the receivers apart?

Humor me but in my gif above I AM removing the kingpin completely from the firearm. Rotating the receiver away and then dropping the magazine. By your definition the Kingpin is the ONLY legal takedown pin out there because it is actually removed.
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Old 08-14-2018, 8:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I like the play on words to completely benefit the Kingpin. Yes not being subtle here but when you remove something or someone from a building they’re no longer in the building. So if I have a maglock and a standard takedown pin am I actually removing the pin to rotate the receivers apart?

Humor me but in my gif above I AM removing the kingpin completely from the firearm. Rotating the receiver away and then dropping the magazine. By your definition the Kingpin is the ONLY legal takedown pin out there because it is actually removed.
Well, you don't HAVE to REMOVE or retract the Kingpin to make it work. That's the point, right? So I can open the receivers enough to actuate the ARMaglock Gen 2 (and swap mags) while also being able to release a locked back bolt and trip the hammer. Doing all those things together without having to fully open the two halves with a bolt forward is both the selling point of the system and its vulnerability to challenge.

As I have previously stated, I don't even play an attorney on TV. But it appears that the SS 5471 (n) is located in the enabling regulations, not the original legislation, correct? As I recall, the Kingpin system came out before the regulations were released. (I marvel at how much faster the market responds than the bureaucrats, maybe too fast in this case.) That requirement MIGHT have been put there to monkeywrench the Kingpin and force us to fully open the receivers (it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you). I can also see it as perhaps challengeable for being somewhat arbitrary in defining opening a receiver, which I believe was all the legislation required. I doubt we'd get a straight, authoritative answer from DoJ....

I'm not trying to stir the pot but I have a legitimate question about my exposure to prosecution, regardless of how remote the chance might be. I've already bought the Kingpin/ARMaglock system, so I'm not shilling for another manufacturer. I like that I can do a pretty fast mag change during rapid fire stages of competition. But I've only got a couple more years left in this blighted state and I really don't want to be the poor sap who turns into a test case. If there's any doubt, I'll just shoot my M14.....
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Old 08-20-2018, 9:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I like the play on words to completely benefit the Kingpin. Yes not being subtle here but when you remove something or someone from a building they’re no longer in the building. So if I have a maglock and a standard takedown pin am I actually removing the pin to rotate the receivers apart?

Humor me but in my gif above I AM removing the kingpin completely from the firearm. Rotating the receiver away and then dropping the magazine. By your definition the Kingpin is the ONLY legal takedown pin out there because it is actually removed.
I totally agree!

I love the Kingpin with the Maglock gen2.

"SS 5471(n)
“Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed."

As far as the "would require the rear take down pin to be removed" There is no other Pin that I have seen on the market that is fully removable except for the kingpin! Non of the options out there for a take down pin completely remove the pin from the lower receiver! So why are members trying to take this so literally and make an issue of it?
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
I like the play on words to completely benefit the Kingpin. Yes not being subtle here but when you remove something or someone from a building they’re no longer in the building. So if I have a maglock and a standard takedown pin am I actually removing the pin to rotate the receivers apart?

Humor me but in my gif above I AM removing the kingpin completely from the firearm. Rotating the receiver away and then dropping the magazine. By your definition the Kingpin is the ONLY legal takedown pin out there because it is actually removed.
When will Maglock Gen2 and KingPin for AR10 be available?

I was told it was supposed be in the market by the end of July.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:18 PM
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Old 08-15-2018, 4:00 PM
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They are basically giving conflicting definitions in their own definition. Technically every time a semi-auto fires the fire control is separated from the action momentarily. Then they proceed to say that for an AR15 this would require the receiver halves to be separated. However, you can meet this requirement and still be able to fire the weapon.


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Old 08-19-2018, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by solidfreshdope View Post
They are basically giving conflicting definitions in their own definition. Technically every time a semi-auto fires the fire control is separated from the action momentarily. Then they proceed to say that for an AR15 this would require the receiver halves to be separated. However, you can meet this requirement and still be able to fire the weapon.


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I see the fundamental problem is that as I understand it, the law only required the receiver halves be separated, it did not define how far. The DoJ in developing regulations added the distance requirement, which seems to go beyond what the law allowed them to do (what a surprise). The Kingpin setup seems to comply with the law but may not comply with the regulations, which also do not comply with the law. What a mess this blighted state is....
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Old 08-19-2018, 2:10 PM
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...... The DoJ in developing regulations added the distance requirement, which seems to go beyond what the law allowed them to do (what a surprise).....
Can you please elaborate on the distance requirement please? Is this something new?
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Old 08-19-2018, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
The Kingpin setup seems to comply with the law but may not comply with the regulations
The regulations resolved ambiguity in the law. The law, as it stands, is undefined relating to "disassembly of the firearm action", and said phrase could mean anything a judge reasonably wants it to mean. Said judge, likely, could look to the regulations for registration as reasonably reflecting the intent of the definition of "disassembly of the firearm action"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
My main concern is that if a magazine is removed from an otherwise complete (the regs do not say "fully assembled and functional") semi auto firearm, it is still a semi auto firearm. So, once a mag is removed it could easily be classified as an AW until it returns to a fixed magazine configuration. It is illegal to manufacture an AW and every time someone changes a mag is any "fixed magazine" semi auto with evil features, they are committing a felony.
To wit:
Quote:
“assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has [any evil feature]
[...]
(b) For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
If you remove the rear take-down pin and pivot the upper forward to remove the mag (as defined in the regs), the action is disassembled and the firearm does not have a "fixed mag" in that it is not "contained in, or permanently attached to" said firearm. If you then rejoin the upper and lower, you then have a functional rifle which does not have the action disassembled, nor a "fixed mag". Does this constitute an AW? It seems it could be argued such. I.e, for definitions of "disassembly of the firearm action" given in the regs, it seems the only strictly legal way of changing a mag is to reattach said mag before rejoining the upper and lower. Otherwise, you transition through a state of possessing a semi-auto rifle without a "fixed mag".
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Old 08-19-2018, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
The regulations resolved ambiguity in the law. The law, as it stands, is undefined relating to "disassembly of the firearm action", and said phrase could mean anything a judge reasonably wants it to mean. Said judge, likely, could look to the regulations for registration as reasonably reflecting the intent of the definition of "disassembly of the firearm action"

To wit:

If you remove the rear take-down pin and pivot the upper forward to remove the mag (as defined in the regs), the action is disassembled and the firearm does not have a "fixed mag" in that it is not "contained in, or permanently attached to" said firearm. If you then rejoin the upper and lower, you then have a functional rifle which does not have the action disassembled, nor a "fixed mag". Does this constitute an AW? It seems it could be argued such. I.e, for definitions of "disassembly of the firearm action" given in the regs, it seems the only strictly legal way of changing a mag is to reattach said mag before rejoining the upper and lower. Otherwise, you transition through a state of possessing a semi-auto rifle without a "fixed mag".
Sorry, your idea of pivoting the upper and lower on the front takedown pin would mean that the upper is still attached to the lower, right? You are looking at the definition of how a magazine much be attached but, there is nothing in that definition that implies it can legally be removed with the action disassembled and still be considered a "fixed magazine". The law only allows you to remove a fixed magazine if your fixed magazine firearm (that would be an illegal AW without the fixed magazine) is rendered a non semi auto firearm prior to the removal of the magazine.
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Old 08-19-2018, 2:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
I see the fundamental problem is that as I understand it, the law only required the receiver halves be separated, it did not define how far. The DoJ in developing regulations added the distance requirement, which seems to go beyond what the law allowed them to do (what a surprise). The Kingpin setup seems to comply with the law but may not comply with the regulations, which also do not comply with the law. What a mess this blighted state is....
Actually, CCR does make it pretty clear that they need to be completely separated so, there's no need for a distance requirement:

Quote:
CCR 5471:

(k) “Contained in” means that the magazine cannot be released from the firearm while the action is assembled. For AR-15 style firearms this means the magazine cannot be released from the firearm while the upper receiver and lower receiver are joined together.
This is pretty important since "contained in" is part of the legal definition of "fixed magazine". Please note that the regs do not allow for "partially joined" such as only removing the rear takedown pin while keeping the upper attached to the lower with the front take down pin.

Quote:
(p) “Fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
And, of course, there's this part of 5471:

Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
(1) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
(4) A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)
Please note that these regs ONLY allow for actions of AR15s to be completely separated and not be considered a "semi auto". When it comes to other firearms where the "upper receiver" can be separated from the "lower receiver" the law could still consider it a "semi auto". So, be careful with firearms such as many HKs. FALs, etc.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 08-19-2018 at 2:59 PM..
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Old 08-19-2018, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Please note that the regs do not allow for "partially joined" such as only removing the rear takedown pin while keeping the upper attached to the lower with the front take down pin.
For the purposes of releasing a mag, the regs absolutely do
5471 (n)
Quote:
For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
Which elaborates on their meaning of "while the upper receiver and lower receiver are joined together. " I.e, by their own elaboration, the regs are defining that an upper, attached to the lower only by the front take-down pin and swiveled apart absolutely does constitute a "disassembled action" and makes magazine removal legal in the definition of removing a "fixed magazine"
Quote:
there is nothing in that definition that implies it can legally be removed with the action disassembled and still be considered a "fixed magazine"
I think you misunderstand my point.
Quote:
The law only allows you to remove a fixed magazine if your fixed magazine firearm (that would be an illegal AW without the fixed magazine) is rendered a non semi auto firearm prior to the removal of the magazine
And if you re-join the halves with no magazine in the magwell, then what? It contains no magazine and cannot meet the definition of "[has] a "fixed mag" in that it is "contained in, or permanently attached to" said firearm"
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Old 08-19-2018, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
For the purposes of releasing a mag, the regs absolutely do
5471 (n)

Which elaborates on their meaning of "while the upper receiver and lower receiver are joined together. " I.e, by their own elaboration, the regs are defining that an upper, attached to the lower only by the front take-down pin and swiveled apart absolutely does constitute a "disassembled action" and makes magazine removal legal in the definition of removing a "fixed magazine"
I think you misunderstand my point.

And if you re-join the halves with no magazine in the magwell, then what? It contains no magazine and cannot meet the definition of "[has] a "fixed mag" in that it is "contained in, or permanently attached to" said firearm"
If you rejoin the upper to the lower without a magazine in it, it does not have a "fixed magazine" (assuming it's a semi auto with evil features- except for a .22lr rifle) it would be an illegal AW.

Your stance about completely separating the two receivers or just partially separating them by removing the rear takedown pin and pivoting them appears wrong to me. The regs are pretty clear on what is still considered a semi auto and what isn't. The definition of "fixed magazine" only defines how the magazine must be attached and does not provide for permission to actually remove the magazine while the upper is attached to the lower in any way.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:56 PM
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My main concern is that if a magazine is removed from an otherwise complete (the regs do not say "fully assembled and functional") semi auto firearm, it is still a semi auto firearm. So, once a mag is removed it could easily be classified as an AW until it returns to a fixed magazine configuration. It is illegal to manufacture an AW and every time someone changes a mag is any "fixed magazine" semi auto with evil features, they are committing a felony.
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Old 08-19-2018, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
My main concern is that if a magazine is removed from an otherwise complete (the regs do not say "fully assembled and functional") semi auto firearm, it is still a semi auto firearm. So, once a mag is removed it could easily be classified as an AW until it returns to a fixed magazine configuration. It is illegal to manufacture an AW and every time someone changes a mag is any "fixed magazine" semi auto with evil features, they are committing a felony.
I want to move to Arizona....
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:15 PM
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well for argument's sake, the pc says a fixed magazine "cannot be removed without disassembly of the action". It does not say "cannot be removed ever" or "cannot be inserted without disassembly". The rifle is still a "fixed magazine" mechanically, even if the magazine is not currently installed. Otherwise all the regs about pivoting and such would be moot. I think pulling the semi-auto definition into it is muddying the water. Opening the action is not to make the the rifle not semi-auto and therefore not an AW, it is to make the action disassembled according to the fixed magazine rules. It's always a semi-auto.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
The rifle is still a "fixed magazine" mechanically, even if the magazine is not currently installed
Why do you force me to repeat myself?
Quote:
(b) For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
If there is no magazine attached to the rifle, please explain to me how it has "an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to" it.
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Old 08-20-2018, 7:29 AM
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My POV for whatever it is worth

Whomever is prosecuting a case against someone with a kingping needs to articulate how separating the upper from the lower via a kingpin is inherently different than sliding the original style take down pin and separating the upper from the lower.

With the bolt forward it is no different than using a standard take down pin. The hammer can not contact the firing pin thus rendering the firearm inoperable.

With the bolt back and the upper opened a little bit, if you drop the bolt the upper will separate even farther to the point that it is inoperable as if you started with the bolt forward in the first place.

Even if it did fire, it would only fire once so its not semi-automatic

And nothing is permanently installed. People can grind welds, machine mag releases into a receiver, drill out pins, etc.
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Old 08-22-2018, 7:29 AM
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Who’s on first?!?!


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Old 08-22-2018, 3:29 PM
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A semi auto is also not capable of cycling and reloading while the safety is on... lol! But it is still a whole and complete semi auto.

This is just like the argument that we could not “attach” a bullet button tool to the firearm because it became part of the firearm. If the tool is attached the mechanism does not require a tool anymore it has been modified to not require one by the presence of the attached “tool”.

The upper is very much attached while the rear pin is open and upper rocked forward until the forward pin is open and upper removed from lower. The firearm is still whole and retains all its characteristics. It’s a very slippery issue to argue and I won’t be that test case.


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Old 08-22-2018, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
A semi auto is also not capable of cycling and reloading while the safety is on... lol! But it is still a whole and complete semi auto.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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Your point is invalid since hh (2) covers that

(2) A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm.

Try reading the entire section first
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Old 09-10-2019, 4:32 PM
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Because the law says we have to have the mag "locked".... That's why.
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Old 09-11-2019, 5:25 AM
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This conversation is why I prefer the locked, featureless single shot assaulty type weapon.

If you are interested in converting your firearm to this configuration....
don't contact me!!
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:18 AM
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I rarely chime in on conversations like these, but been trying to bone up on CA since I will be moving back here soon (I know....)
Frankly I find it interesting, mostly because it scares the living piss out of me how vague and confusing all of these laws are.

I've been reading hours and hours of posts and PC (which hurts the brain) so forgive me for not quoting directly, rather paraphrasing a member's concern over the legality of removing a fixed magazine (with the receivers open/action interrupted etc) and now creating a transitional period where you have created an AW because it no longer has a "fixed magazine contained in"
I get that, but wouldn't it, the second you reinserted another magazine, just be a fixed magazine rifle again? The PC quote about "missing ammunition or ammunition feeding devices, it is still a semi-automatic", true, but without a magazine in there, how does that make it an AW? It still has a magazine lock device that will lock a magazine in again the second you put one in?

Not trying to stir the pot, just my thought and didn't see anybody else who brought it up.
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