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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-14-2019, 4:15 PM
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Default First Amendment carry case: Zeleny v Governor, AG, et al - USDC Northern District CA

Here you go friends. Take a look. Basically the guy wants to carry as a form of political protest over some Silicon Valley CEO

Take a look at his lawyers. This is a really legit firm. That is the lead lawyer. Whoever Zeleny is I respect his commitment because lawyers like this don't come cheap. http://www.agzlaw.com/david-w-affeld
https://www.scribd.com/document/4062...pen-Carry-Case


edit

Mike is raising money. Let's all try to help him out.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/equal-pro...Q8Lh51lekZDqnE

the whole docket to the case can be found here.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...eleny-v-brown/
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Old 04-14-2019, 4:34 PM
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That’s some weird behaving dude.
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Old 04-14-2019, 4:57 PM
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This is very old. The plaintiff has been doing this kind of stuff for many years, perhaps 10 or so. He was also arrested about 5 or 10 years ago on Sand Hill Road (home of the vulture capitalists) when he was doing something similar, protesting with a gun. He is well known in Southern California gun collector circles for his magnificent collection of pistols, unbelievable intellect, and excellent taste in guns.
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Old 04-14-2019, 6:32 PM
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Case 3:17-cv-07357-RS

Zeleny is a member here, though not very active.
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Old 04-14-2019, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainLion View Post
This is very old. The plaintiff has been doing this kind of stuff for many years, perhaps 10 or so. He was also arrested about 5 or 10 years ago on Sand Hill Road (home of the vulture capitalists) when he was doing something similar, protesting with a gun. He is well known in Southern California gun collector circles for his magnificent collection of pistols, unbelievable intellect, and excellent taste in guns.
5 days since filing [4-9-19] isn't all that old.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainLion View Post
This is very old. The plaintiff has been doing this kind of stuff for many years, perhaps 10 or so. He was also arrested about 5 or 10 years ago on Sand Hill Road (home of the vulture capitalists) when he was doing something similar, protesting with a gun. He is well known in Southern California gun collector circles for his magnificent collection of pistols, unbelievable intellect, and excellent taste in guns.
He helped a girl get money from her Dad because he sexually abused her according to the complaint. He exposed both the Dad and his company for covering it up and now is protesting so that the public know about the pedophilia. He now is suing for his right to protest with a gun. The case has been around for 2 years but what i linked to is a new complaint that was filed recently. Filing a new complaint sort of restarts a case.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:12 PM
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If I read this right he is basically suing to be able to carry while at protests?

I wondered when someone would fight back against this stupid law.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:54 PM
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If I read this right he is basically suing to be able to carry while at protests?

I wondered when someone would fight back against this stupid law.
It's pretty amusing... he's calling his protests "entertainment events and media productions" and using the "Hollywood exemption" as a defense of his right to carry at said "events."
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:58 AM
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California Man Denied Permit to Protest
With Rifle Sues City of Menlo Park

The Truth About Guns. 4/14/2018
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...of-menlo-park/

"Michael Zeleny, a free-speech and Second Amendment activist has
sued the City of Menlo Park, California, and a number of city and state
officials for denial of his civil rights under the First, Second and
Fourteenth Amendments. The reason: he was denied a permit to
protest while carrying an unloaded AK-47 rifle."


Mr Zeleny also made some remarks in the comment section of the
article (at least someone claiming to be him), including a Link to
some, uh, weird / sex animations regarding his ongoing dispute
against Min Zhu, Cisco WebEx founder, with commentary about his
2014 People v. Michael Zeleny

One of his comments:

"Michael Zeleny says:
May 7, 2018 at 03:39

No, my argument has nothing to do with “filming yourself having sex
with a prostitute and then claiming you were just making perfectly
legal pornography”. That said, you can make perfectly legal
pornography starring yourself, provided that your purpose in paying
the acting fees is to make a sexually explicit movie or video, rather
than to serve sexual arousal or gratification, your own or the actors’.
Note that the burden of proving beyond reasonable doubt the
requisite mens rea or purpose to establish your procurement for
purposes of prostitution, falls on the prosecution.
See People v. Freeman, 46 Cal.3d 419 (1988)."



Originating article:

Man who wanted to wave guns during
protest sues Menlo Park and 3 officials

Daily Post. 2/2/2018
https://padailypost.com/2018/02/02/m...d-3-officials/

"Zeleny is asking the federal court to declare unconstitutional the
California laws Menlo Park cited to stop his gun-waving protest.

The lawsuit describes Zeleny as “an internationally renowned researcher
of the history and technology of firearms.” The suit said Zeleny holds a
California Certificate of Eligibility, which indicates he has passed
Department of Justice background checks and is eligible to possess firearms.

Zeleny details his grievance with Zhu in the lawsuit and said that a 2010
attempt by Zhu’s company, New Enterprise Associates, to obtain a
temporary restraining order against him was rejected by the San Mateo
County Superior Court."




Noble
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  #10  
Old 04-15-2019, 1:54 AM
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I'm no legal expert, but it seems rather obvious that prohibiting unloaded open carry is a violation of the 1st Amendment.
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Old 04-17-2019, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
I'm no legal expert, but it seems rather obvious that prohibiting unloaded open carry is a violation of the 1st Amendment.
Only if you do it while stripping.
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Old 04-17-2019, 8:42 AM
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Historically, the Colonists did this a lot by assembling with guns (sometimes loaded). Totally has some historical merit.
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Old 09-10-2019, 4:51 PM
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Answer to Second Amended complaint filed. This guy must be spending a small fortune to take on the state. I respect his commitment.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4253...ment-Complaint
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Old 09-10-2019, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Answer to Second Amended complaint filed. This guy must be spending a small fortune to take on the state. I respect his commitment.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4253...ment-Complaint
Reading up to the first 25 paragraphs all I heard over and over is Sergeant Schultz reapeating "I know nothing!".
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Old 09-10-2019, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
Reading up to the first 25 paragraphs all I heard over and over is Sergeant Schultz reapeating "I know nthing!".
That is the first 25 pages of "I know nothing!". The AG of CA is devoid of any knowledge and plainly says so.
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Old 09-10-2019, 8:33 PM
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this is the second amended complaint that the answer is to I forgot to upload it

https://www.scribd.com/document/4253...GfQyUnzAyQ5_YI
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Old 09-11-2019, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
this is the second amended complaint that the answer is to I forgot to upload it

https://www.scribd.com/document/4253...GfQyUnzAyQ5_YI
Wow, got sucked in to reading that as it just seemed to get more and more bogus on the part of the city... don't know exactly what to think, but the guy is PERSISTENT!
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Old 09-11-2019, 7:45 PM
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This is entertaining
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Old 09-25-2019, 5:19 PM
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answer filed by menlo park

https://www.scribd.com/document/4274...nded-Complaint
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  #20  
Old 10-01-2019, 11:54 AM
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Default Money Money money money

Sues under 42 USC 1983-nice for $$$$-nice. Get that money!!!!

Interesting arguments. Novel approach.
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  #21  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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Zeleny just filed his opposition to one of the Defendants motion to dismiss


https://www.scribd.com/document/4309...ion-to-Dismiss
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Old 02-20-2020, 3:45 PM
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Just got this and I haven't had a chance to carefully read it. This is the deposition of a CA DOJ agent on behalf of the Attorney General of California discussing CA's carry laws in Michael Zeleny's lawsuit. I noticed the DOJ were not willing to answer much about CA's open carry laws.


https://www.scribd.com/document/4480...t-Blake-Graham
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:54 AM
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Mike is raising money. Let's all try to help him out.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/equal-pro...Q8Lh51lekZDqnE
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Old 03-02-2020, 12:04 PM
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https://reason.com/2020/03/02/intere...rivilege-case/ Zeleny appears to win on requiring some docs from Menlo Park.

Quote:
From Zeleny v. Newsom, decided Friday by Magistrate Judge Thomas S. Hixson (N.D. Cal.):

This case is about crusades.

Last edited by Librarian; 03-02-2020 at 6:15 PM..
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Old 03-02-2020, 5:51 PM
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DISCOVERY ORDER

Quote:
Bertini’s declaration is so lackluster, the Court could overrule the City’s privilege claim on this ground alone. Indeed, Kelly holds that the Court should do exactly that and not even bother with an in camera review if the defendant’s affidavit is insufficient.
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Old 09-06-2020, 11:03 PM
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another discovery order.

https://docs.justia.com/cases/federa...t4uR1tg2Zp6BLM
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Old 09-06-2020, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Let's hear it for Judge Hixson!

Last edited by Librarian; 09-06-2020 at 11:29 PM..
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Old 09-07-2020, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Let's hear it for Judge Hixson!
Interesting update...and understandable really.

Authorities shouldn't get to simply say, "No you can't!" and walk away.

Their authority after all does depend upon referenceable constitutional amendments, statutes, codes and regulations.

What's next? Are California's overpaid attorneys going to turn out to be just like Hawaii's overpaid attorneys - subcontracting to outside attorneys to do what they're already being paid to do to begin with?

=8-(
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Old 09-10-2020, 10:54 PM
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What's next? Are California's overpaid attorneys going to turn out to be just like Hawaii's overpaid attorneys - subcontracting to outside attorneys to do what they're already being paid to do to begin with?
A valid question that Ca taxpayers will never receive an answer to.

Like Eric holder getting a $25,000 a month salary from Basura's DOJ slush fund. To sue Trump since shortly after the Donald was elected.
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:02 PM
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What's next? Are California's overpaid attorneys going to turn out to be just like Hawaii's overpaid attorneys - subcontracting to outside attorneys to do what they're already being paid to do to begin with?
A valid question that Ca taxpayers will never receive an answer to.

Like Eric holder getting a $25,000 a month salary from Basura's DOJ slush fund. To sue Trump since Jan 4th 2017.

16 days before The Donald was even inaugurated.
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Old 09-16-2020, 3:08 PM
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MOTION From Nondispositive Pretrial Order of Magistrate Judge filed by Xavier Becerra
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Old 09-23-2020, 12:03 PM
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https://pdfhost.io/v/KI7s4wFsb_Motio...1140993DOC.pdf


opposition filed
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Old 01-24-2021, 1:01 AM
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Michael Zeleny has filed his summary judgement separately against the City of Menlo and the State of California in his carry case on both First and Second Amendment grounds. As you may recall Zeleny is a Bay Area resident who wishes to carry a firearm while protesting a known child molester and the company (NEA) that helped him. Links to both briefs are below.
https://pdfhost.io/v/TnAaftRI0_Micro...0117400DOC.pdf

https://pdfhost.io/v/fopnjseFR_Micro...0117246DOC.pdf
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Old 02-05-2021, 3:15 PM
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Both Michael Zeleny and the Defendants in his carry case have filed their oppositions to the other parties motions for summary judgement.
https://pdfhost.io/v/HzN.Ulipn_Pleading.pdf


https://pdfhost.io/v/2.y7WG0on_Micro...0117648DOC.pdf

https://pdfhost.io/v/sjCCVHxTq_Micro...0117971DOC.pdf
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Old 07-13-2021, 9:25 AM
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ORDER GRANTING IN PART & DENYING IN PART PLAINTIFF’S MOTIONS FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT; GRANTING IN PART & DENYING IN PART DEFENDANTS’ CROSS-MOTIONS FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT

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Consistent with the foregoing, Zeleny’s motion for summary judgment against the State is denied in its entirety, and the State’s cross-motion for summary judgment is granted in its entirety. Zeleny’s motion for summary judgment against Menlo Park and Dave Bertini is granted as to its request for judgment that Menlo Park’s SEP permitting process and film permitting process are facially unconstitutional prior restraints, and denied in all other respects. The cross-motion for summary judgment brought by Menlo Park and Dave Bertini is granted as to its request for judgment that Zeleny may not seek injunctive relief against Bertini under Ex Parte Young, and denied in all other respects. The Status Conference previously set in this matter for August 12, 2021 is hereby vacated. The parties shall file a Joint Status Report, detailing the remaining issues in this case, if any, no later than August 6, 2021.
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Old 07-13-2021, 8:49 PM
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Interesting judgement. It turns this completely into a limited 1A case, purely about the city's permit granting technique. Actually, it was a 1A case to begin with: Michael's argument was that carrying a gun while protesting something that has nothing to do with guns is allowed under the 1A, since guns make the "speech" de-facto louder. What the order re-iterates is that non-verbal parts of "free speech" can be restricted by the government if there is a good reason for it.

As a crazy example: I could decide to protest against the LA CCW issuance policies, and to make my protest get more attention, I could do so by dumping buckets and buckets of raw sewage into Calabasas Creek. Using Michael's argument, dumping sewage must be legal under the 1A, since in the current instance it is part of constitutionally protected free speech, namely my protest against the LASO and LAPD, and all I'm using the sewage for is to attract more people to my display of free speech (using the smell). The judge didn't like that line of reasoning much, and disassembled it quite thoroughly.
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Old 07-21-2021, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainLion View Post
Interesting judgement. It turns this completely into a limited 1A case, purely about the city's permit granting technique. Actually, it was a 1A case to begin with: Michael's argument was that carrying a gun while protesting something that has nothing to do with guns is allowed under the 1A, since guns make the "speech" de-facto louder. What the order re-iterates is that non-verbal parts of "free speech" can be restricted by the government if there is a good reason for it.

As a crazy example: I could decide to protest against the LA CCW issuance policies, and to make my protest get more attention, I could do so by dumping buckets and buckets of raw sewage into Calabasas Creek. Using Michael's argument, dumping sewage must be legal under the 1A, since in the current instance it is part of constitutionally protected free speech, namely my protest against the LASO and LAPD, and all I'm using the sewage for is to attract more people to my display of free speech (using the smell). The judge didn't like that line of reasoning much, and disassembled it quite thoroughly.
Crazy indeed. Dumping raw sewage into Calabasas Creek is a malum in se. Carrying a firearm is a malum prohibitum, for the time being. Appreciate the difference.

Reread the ruling. Judge Seeborg notes that the First Amendment protects only conduct that is intended to convey a particularized message, implicitly disregarding the particularized message of open carry formulated by the Black Panthers in 1967: “We won’t go down without a fight.” Moreover, in regard of plaintiff’s Equal Protection claim, he insinuates, but fails to spell out, the rational basis for discriminating against the Black Panthers, in favor of makers of a movie about them.

And lest you fail to discern a silver lining, unloaded open carry is about to become legal again in California, upon receipt of a “shall issue” Entertainment Firearms Permit, preferably accompanied by “shall issue” film or entertainment event permits.
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Old 07-21-2021, 8:35 PM
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Dumping raw sewage into Calabasas Creek is a malum in se. Carrying a firearm is a malum prohibitum
QFT. I can hardly think of a less apropriate analogy.
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Old 07-21-2021, 9:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bragmardo View Post
Dumping raw sewage into Calabasas Creek is a malum in se. Carrying a firearm is a malum prohibitum, for the time being. Appreciate the difference.
I would have stated that dumping raw sewage into the creek happens to be a malum prohibitum, but that this is relatively new development (perhaps 100 years). Canalization is a pretty new invention. In comparison, the prohibitions against carrying arms in public are long-standing, even ancient. For example, Rome: As far as I remember from history class, only equestrians and the senatorial class was allowed to carry swords, and even the lictors (personal bodyguards) of the magistrates had to remove the axes from their fasces while within the city, because there their right and duty to perform capital punishment is restricted. Imagine what would happen if we in California passed a law that only millionaires and members of the legislature can carry guns, and that the CHP has to disarm while in Sacramento.

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Judge Seeborg notes that the First Amendment protects only conduct that is intended to convey a particularized message, implicitly disregarding the particularized message of open carry formulated by the Black Panthers in 1967: “We won’t go down without a fight.”
But exactly that logic does not apply to the Zeleny case, a Michael himself clearly states: He is not carrying a gun because he intends to shoot it. He is only carrying a gun to increase the attention paid to him when delivering a message that is utterly unrelated to guns and gun rights. In this fashion, his case is easily distinguished from the Black Panthers.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainLion View Post
Canalization is a pretty new invention. In comparison, the prohibitions against carrying arms in public are long-standing, even ancient.
Age has nothing to do with it. The simple act of carrying a weapon is very different from the physical act of polluting (or even poisoning) someone.

The loathsome (and generally used to intentionally mislead) notion that carrying a weapon is, in and of itself, a crime that has an injured party, is pure propaganda.

Not only that, asserting that the "age" of a law is at all a useful metric to compare "in se" with "prohibitum" on top of that is questionable. The difference is an ideological one, not a matter of the technicalities and vagaries of law. Now, it might be that that difference is a matter of opinion (ideologically) and we can agree to disagree on that front. But making it a "longstanding" vs "contemporary" comparison I do not think is something anyone would generally agree with.

In particular, because the bans on carrying weapons were primarily promulgated by lords, tyrants, and dictators: those most likely to deliberately obscure the difference between "prohibitum" and "in se" out of pure self interest. Talk about longstanding - that despicable tradition is probably as old as society itself.

"Prohibitum" laws have just as long a tradition as "in se" laws. I would argue they're also much more likely to be blatant (or carefully disguised) abuses of fundamental rights.
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Last edited by curtisfong; 07-21-2021 at 10:40 PM..
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