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  #81  
Old 07-20-2020, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mossy View Post
You realize this was a topic posted for Non-Christians, right?
You can quote the bible cover to cover to me, won't make a difference. I am not a Christian, I find your bible to be a false teaching blinding people to the reality of the world while trapping them in Samsara by making grand promises of salvation given as a gift.
Well, I suppose I did open this one up to such trolling, considering some of the folks on this forum. It's like I walked onto a college campus, straight into the girls dorm with an honest, polite and respectful demeanor and whispered that I was a virgin. It shouldn't be any surprise when I get some unwanted attention from a few characters looking for a self-gratifying conquest. A valid criticism of me here is that I walked straight into that den of jackals.

But who says it isn't a little bit fun for me, too

In small doses, it's amusing when Christians cite the Bible as authoritative proof of something to a non-Christian. It shows just how locked into their own perspectives they are -- that they can't even see how a non-Christian would perceive such "evidence." In large doses, it's just obnoxious.

In my mind, it's no different than citing Chinese laws to Americans. Yes, it's the law somewhere but it certainly doesn't apply to me. I have some pity for the mindset, though, because I once espoused it wholeheartedly in my teenage years. I see a lot of my younger self in people like Kokopelli. Ironically, to quote St. Paul, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things." Black/white thinking, simple answers, uncomplicated explanations, blindly following authority, are all part of what is important for kids but, alas, not always good for adults in the real world. Some grow out of it. Some don't. Some religious systems can tolerate complexity, some can't. Those I respect the most, like Buddhism, for example, foster a mindset of complexity. Which is also partly why many of the most learned Christians, also study Buddhism -- it works in the real world.
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  #82  
Old 07-21-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by shootthehorses View Post
I've had too many moments of my life where things have could have gone very bad for me, and the only reason I was rescued was because of what I determined to be supernatural intervention. I therefore believe in the Lord my God, his Son, and the Holy Spirit. Your mileage may vary, but it is real for me.
Awesome! No proofs or elaborate rationalizations needed. And if it works, why mess with it?
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  #83  
Old 07-21-2020, 10:13 AM
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Kind of a poor example, since, in the end, she did weigh the same as a small duck.
Well, you got me there
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  #84  
Old 09-01-2020, 4:27 PM
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What does it matter what religion the people who are on this forum?
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  #85  
Old 09-01-2020, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by summerday View Post
What does it matter what religion the people who are on this forum?
You clearly don’t understand the dichotomy of .45 ACP, 1911 platform created by John Moses Browning (May his name be praised) v. 9mm, non-SAE, anti-Christ standard metric abortions spawned from the failed states comprising NATO.

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  #86  
Old 09-01-2020, 7:02 PM
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I'm prefer something akin to televangelist services.

Sitting on my couch, tune in the Sunday celebrations of worship. Enjoy the masses that sit in rows at their gatherings and give good cheer in observance of the ovoid leather sphere.
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  #87  
Old 09-02-2020, 7:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BillSmith View Post
I'm prefer something akin to televangelist services.

Sitting on my couch, tune in the Sunday celebrations of worship. Enjoy the masses that sit in rows at their gatherings and give good cheer in observance of the ovoid leather sphere.
That's a good one! I've long thought that sports are the true religion of America. But I've never heard of the "ovoid leather sphere" as a holy object before. Well said. I'm not much into that religion myself but I can certainly be convinced to take communion in reverence on occasion (of the stout variety when possible).
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  #88  
Old 09-02-2020, 8:00 AM
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Surely you have heard of " The Church of Monday Night Football " or have you ?

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  #89  
Old 09-14-2020, 5:30 PM
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I'm nominally Jewish but have been attending a Unitarian church the last few years.
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  #90  
Old 09-14-2020, 9:09 PM
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Free Thinker (athiest).
Raised on Indian reservations and force fed the lie that is christianity. If I were to fall into a religion of some kind, it would be an American Indian religion.
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  #91  
Old 09-14-2020, 9:42 PM
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He’s real
Soon we shall “ALL” know


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  #92  
Old 09-15-2020, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by buster1960 View Post
Free Thinker (athiest).
Raised on Indian reservations and force fed the lie that is christianity. If I were to fall into a religion of some kind, it would be an American Indian religion.
It's sad that you don't believe, but how do you know that it's a lie?
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  #93  
Old 09-15-2020, 4:12 PM
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Why is it sad that someone doesn't believe? Is it because you do and you think your belief is the only way? Sad, if that's the case.

Just suppose that you die and then find out you had it all wrong.
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  #94  
Old 09-15-2020, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SelfGovernor View Post
It's sad that you don't believe, but how do you know that it's a lie?
I second this question, not as an accusation but just an honest curiosity?

It takes as much or more faith to be an atheist as it does Christian.
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  #95  
Old 09-15-2020, 8:15 PM
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In order for me to answer your question, I'd have to reveal to much of myself. Its enough for me to say I see to much day to day to believe in a benevolent being.
Why would anyone want to associate themselves with a being that would inflict that kind of incididiousness on "his children".
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  #96  
Old 09-15-2020, 8:21 PM
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Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

We need to humble ourselves, not pretend we know anything.
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  #97  
Old 09-15-2020, 8:49 PM
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And quoting scripture is zero proof.

Christians are always quoting the Bible as their proof. But the Bible is part of your faith. You can't use it as proof of anything.

I know nothing and won't pretend that I do. There might be a god. There might not be a god. There may be life after death. There might not be. Etc., etc... And I may, or may not, find out anything when I die. That hasn't happened yet, so I do not know and I won't pretend that I do. And I won't encumber my life with uncertainties. And I'm perfectly happy with the not knowing. It's OK to not know. In fact, more misery and pain and death and other horrors have been perpetuated on other men throughout the history of the world by people who think they know, when in actuality they know nothing.

Think about it.
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  #98  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
Why is it sad that someone doesn't believe? Is it because you do and you think your belief is the only way? Sad, if that's the case.

Just suppose that you die and then find out you had it all wrong.

It’s sad because as Christians we believe salvation comes only through Christ. Without faith in Christ there’s judgment.

We both have a vested interest in our positions. It is important to me that Scripture is true. But it is also equally important to you that what I believe is false. But we can agree one of us is wrong.

Since the final result has eternal consequences so I think it wise that we both search for the truth.


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  #99  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
And quoting scripture is zero proof.

Christians are always quoting the Bible as their proof. But the Bible is part of your faith. You can't use it as proof of anything.

I know nothing and won't pretend that I do. There might be a god. There might not be a god. There may be life after death. There might not be. Etc., etc... And I may, or may not, find out anything when I die. That hasn't happened yet, so I do not know and I won't pretend that I do. And I won't encumber my life with uncertainties. And I'm perfectly happy with the not knowing. It's OK to not know. In fact, more misery and pain and death and other horrors have been perpetuated on other men throughout the history of the world by people who think they know, when in actuality they know nothing.

Think about it.
Proverbs 16:25

"There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death."
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  #100  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
Why is it sad that someone doesn't believe? Is it because you do and you think your belief is the only way? Sad, if that's the case.

Just suppose that you die and then find out you had it all wrong.
Pascal's wager, man

610px-Pascal's_Wager_Diagram.jpg
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  #101  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:20 PM
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Grew up Catholic I stopped looking up and started looking within in the late 70's early 80's when I enlisted. Read a few of the various other books they're all the same in premise. Just do right by others is my motto.

I think ANY deity that has the power to prevent the stuff that happens in this world to children and just stands idle and does nothing may not be something I want to be attached to. In nature animals kill to eat , humans kill each other for sport.

I feel like this , we ALL have someone we loved or they loved us and then they pass away. If there was something after this , that person would sure come back and warn us to get right because they loved us. So i'll make my mark here and live as good a life as I can and help someone else live theirs good too if I can. If something happens after i'll never be able to tell anyone it seems.
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  #102  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by spectralhunter View Post
It’s sad because as Christians we believe salvation comes only through Christ. Without faith in Christ there’s judgment.

We both have a vested interest in our positions. It is important to me that Scripture is true. But it is also equally important to you that what I believe is false. But we can agree one of us is wrong.

Since the final result has eternal consequences so I think it wise that we both search for the truth.


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You're missing other possibilities. First off, it's possible that we're both wrong. And there are myriad other possibilities.

Also, it's not important to me that you're wrong. Just don't go around thinking your right. Because you might not be.

And you say it's wise that we both search for the truth because there are eternal consequences but that, too, may be wrong.
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  #103  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Featureless View Post
Proverbs 16:25

"There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death."
See, all you can come back with is more quotes from scripture. Again, proof of nothing.
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  #104  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FightYouRightNow View Post
Pascal's wager, man

Attachment 936836
And there's a fault with that wager. It assumes an evil, thoughtless god that would condem a man for simply not believing in him. I prefer to think that IF there is a god, he/she/it might not give a **** about us one way or another. Pascal's wager is based on a very, very narrow definition of god.
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  #105  
Old 09-15-2020, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by M60A1Rise View Post
Grew up Catholic I stopped looking up and started looking within in the late 70's early 80's when I enlisted. Read a few of the various other books they're all the same in premise. Just do right by others is my motto.

I think ANY deity that has the power to prevent the stuff that happens in this world to children and just stands idle and does nothing may not be something I want to be attached to. In nature animals kill to eat , humans kill each other for sport.

I feel like this , we ALL have someone we loved or they loved us and then they pass away. If there was something after this , that person would sure come back and warn us to get right because they loved us. So i'll make my mark here and live as good a life as I can and help someone else live theirs good too if I can. If something happens after i'll never be able to tell anyone it seems.
Amen brother, well said.
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Old 09-15-2020, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
See, all you can come back with is more quotes from scripture. Again, proof of nothing.
OK. Let's play your game. What is your premise? What is your argument? What is your proof?

Do you have a foundation? Or only a baseless attack?

Make your point.
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Old 09-15-2020, 9:42 PM
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And there's a fault with that wager. It assumes an evil, thoughtless god that would condem a man for simply not believing in him. I prefer to think that IF there is a god, he/she/it might not give a **** about us one way or another. Pascal's wager is based on a very, very narrow definition of god.
Then you're talking about Spinoza's conception of God or perhaps pantheism.

If you insist, this could be a third column: God exists, but just is nature (or something like that), and in the "believe row", the output is "nothing happens", and in the "don't believe" row, the output is "nothing happens".

The wager stands.

QED
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Old 09-15-2020, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
You're missing other possibilities. First off, it's possible that we're both wrong. And there are myriad other possibilities.

Also, it's not important to me that you're wrong. Just don't go around thinking your right. Because you might not be.

And you say it's wise that we both search for the truth because there are eternal consequences but that, too, may be wrong.
We can't be both wrong because my premise is the God of Scripture is real. That's the only assertion I've made. He is real or He is not. One of us is wrong.

And of course it is important to you that I am wrong. Because if I am right, then anyone who hasn't put their trust in Christ is under judgment. If I am wrong, then everything is meaningless so I have a vested interest that God is real.

So all I am saying is, if you believe me to be wrong, be absolutely certain because your eternal life depends upon it.

And "I don't know" is not a good excuse. Ignorance of the law doesn't work in our society and it doesn't work with God either.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1: 18-20
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:06 PM
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And there's a fault with that wager. It assumes an evil, thoughtless god that would condem a man for simply not believing in him. I prefer to think that IF there is a god, he/she/it might not give a **** about us one way or another. Pascal's wager is based on a very, very narrow definition of god.
Or there is a God who is so loving and kind that He created us in His own image, provided a wondrous place to live and gave us all we needed. Instead of being thankful, we decided to play god and thought we could do a better job and rejected Him.

So we declared treason against the Creator and therefore He had every right to punish us for our crimes. Instead, He patiently offered us grace and mercy through His Son Jesus Christ. Instead of us taking upon the punishment of sin, Jesus became our substitute and clothed us in His righteousness so that we could finally be at peace with our Lord. Yes, these actions are truly evil and thoughtless...

We humans who would kill, maim and destroy at the slightest injury inflicted upon us surely knows how to be good and thoughtful and is quite capable of judging the actions of a God who is sinless, long suffering, generous and faithful.

Every day I am amazed He stays His hand when I know I deserve much worse.
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  #110  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:11 PM
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Then I would ask, as a non believer in anything would you bother coming into this forum? Now Mossy is Buddhist and though I don’t agree, I understand him having an option and a point to offer as he does believe in something. But for non believers in anything why bother engaging?
Maybe they are called to hear the word. As long as they are not disruptive, are they welcome here?

I am not part of a formal religious organization but something is calling and speaking to me.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:14 PM
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Maybe they are called to hear the word. As long as they are not disruptive, are they welcome here?

I am not part of a formal religious organization but something is calling and speaking to me.
I for one am glad there are many who have questions even if we disagree. And as long as everyone is civil and try not to be antagonistic, I don't see a problem.
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  #112  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:21 PM
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Muslim
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  #113  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:34 PM
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OK. Let's play your game. What is your premise? What is your argument? What is your proof?

Do you have a foundation? Or only a baseless attack?

Make your point.
I've already stated my beliefs. I simply choose to not believe anything. There are millions of possibilities but that's all they are....possibilities. Nothing is really known until we die. And even then, there may simply be nothing.

Again, I choose not to be encumbered by ANY belief system simply because NONE of them can be proved.
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  #114  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:37 PM
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Or there is a God who is so loving and kind that He created us in His own image, provided a wondrous place to live and gave us all we needed. Instead of being thankful, we decided to play god and thought we could do a better job and rejected Him.

So we declared treason against the Creator and therefore He had every right to punish us for our crimes. Instead, He patiently offered us grace and mercy through His Son Jesus Christ. Instead of us taking upon the punishment of sin, Jesus became our substitute and clothed us in His righteousness so that we could finally be at peace with our Lord. Yes, these actions are truly evil and thoughtless...

We humans who would kill, maim and destroy at the slightest injury inflicted upon us surely knows how to be good and thoughtful and is quite capable of judging the actions of a God who is sinless, long suffering, generous and faithful.

Every day I am amazed He stays His hand when I know I deserve much worse.
And that's your belief. But you can't prove it. You choose to believe. But that doesn't make it correct. That's all I'm saying.
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  #115  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:39 PM
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Then you're talking about Spinoza's conception of God or perhaps pantheism.

If you insist, this could be a third column: God exists, but just is nature (or something like that), and in the "believe row", the output is "nothing happens", and in the "don't believe" row, the output is "nothing happens".

The wager stands.

QED
There are actually an infinite nmber of columns, none of which can be proved.
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  #116  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:07 PM
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I prefer to think that IF there is a god, he/she/it might not give a **** about us one way or another.

There are actually an infinite nmber of columns, none of which can be proved.
i was just adding a column based on your stated preference.

One doesn’t have to prove the statements. It demonstrates any number of possibilities and one can decide if one of the possibilities offers advantage (or is a better bet).
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  #117  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:12 PM
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And that's your belief. But you can't prove it. You choose to believe. But that doesn't make it correct. That's all I'm saying.

You keep trying to convince me (or yourself?) I’m wrong. Seems like you need me to be wrong.

Since your eternal life, according to Scripture, is dependent upon your belief, don’t you think you should seek the answers? If I’m wrong, what do you have to lose?

If I’m right, you have a lot to lose.


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  #118  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:21 PM
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Proof ? The word of God in the Bible makes it plain and clear, BY FAITH you accept the Bible as words from God OR you don't. Proof ? Don't want to excercise faith, don't ! Help yourself to all the doubting and or scorn you want to use. For myself and some others on this site we do use the excercising of our faith with the Bible and its contents. Helpeth thyself.

Psalm 1
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  #119  
Old 09-16-2020, 8:10 AM
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And quoting scripture is zero proof.

Christians are always quoting the Bible as their proof. But the Bible is part of your faith. You can't use it as proof of anything.

I know nothing and won't pretend that I do. There might be a god. There might not be a god. There may be life after death. There might not be. Etc., etc... And I may, or may not, find out anything when I die. That hasn't happened yet, so I do not know and I won't pretend that I do. And I won't encumber my life with uncertainties. And I'm perfectly happy with the not knowing. It's OK to not know. In fact, more misery and pain and death and other horrors have been perpetuated on other men throughout the history of the world by people who think they know, when in actuality they know nothing.

Think about it.
Life only comes from life. Where did it originate?

Order does not come from chaos. Some say a big bang created everything and here we are talking about faith on the Internet? I don't have that much faith to believe an explosion of random materials resulted in the order of the universe that we see today.

Fish only procreate fish. Birds only procreate birds and people only procreate people. Is that by design or accident?

How did love, hate, laughter, sadness and music enter into the thoughts of mankind through evolution? Could it be in the DNA from a creator?

Which came first; plant life or bees? Because one cannot exist without the other.

Why is a planet with ~21% atmospheric oxygen, 93 million miles from a yellow star the perfect environment for many kinds of life to exist?

Were these things by design or by accident? And if by design, who is the designer?

I do not have enough faith to not believe in a creator. I do have the desire to know who he is. Want to see something mind blowing? Look for "Molecular Machines" on YouTube.
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  #120  
Old 09-16-2020, 8:42 AM
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