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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #401  
Old 08-18-2020, 1:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Exactly.
Without a pistol grip, an OTHER can not have a way to feed ammunition that is contained within the pistol grip.
The pistol grip that doesn't exist?

Quote:
The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
It says ''THE" pistol grip. As is in it must be there. Does not say invisible or imaginary pistol grip.

It also says this is another AW feature:

Quote:
A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
which means having any pistol grip below the action, which is the only pistol grip defined in CA law, makes an 'other' AW and so it mutes anything about whether that grip takes a mag or not.

This law is all kinds of stupid.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 08-18-2020 at 1:59 PM..
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  #402  
Old 08-18-2020, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
The pistol grip that doesn't exist?
The way J is written, the pistol grip actually protects the detachable magazine from making it an assault weapon.
Without a pistol grip, you can't have a detachable magazine because it would be outside the pistol grip that you don't have, but if you HAVE a pistol grip, then the detatchable magazine is no problem.

Of course the pistol grip is a listed feature A until you put a FIN on to get rid of the pistol grip.

An UZI with a fin grip and a 16" barrel but no stock and no forward grip is not an AW.
An AR with a fin grip and a 16" barrel but no stock and no forward grip IS an AW because the detachable magazine is outside the pistol grip that it does not have.

This is the same reason AR pistols can't be made featureless.

Last edited by ar15barrels; 08-18-2020 at 2:39 PM..
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  #403  
Old 08-18-2020, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
Nothing is said, that the ""pistol grip"" needs to be functional, the only thing said, is ammo needs to feed through it.
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Last edited by Tankhatch; 08-18-2020 at 4:14 PM..
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  #404  
Old 08-18-2020, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tankhatch View Post
Nothing is said, that the ""pistol grip"" needs to be functional, the only thing said, is ammo needs to feed through it.
Someone needs to invent a pistol grip that wraps around the feed tray entrance and then add a fin grip to that pistol grip so that a pistol style grasp can not be obtained.
Now you have featuress beltfed OTHER firearms.
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  #405  
Old 08-18-2020, 9:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The way J is written, the pistol grip actually protects the detachable magazine from making it an assault weapon.
Without a pistol grip, you can't have a detachable magazine because it would be outside the pistol grip that you don't have, but if you HAVE a pistol grip, then the detatchable magazine is no problem.

Of course the pistol grip is a listed feature A until you put a FIN on to get rid of the pistol grip.

An UZI with a fin grip and a 16" barrel but no stock and no forward grip is not an AW.
An AR with a fin grip and a 16" barrel but no stock and no forward grip IS an AW because the detachable magazine is outside the pistol grip that it does not have.

This is the same reason AR pistols can't be made featureless.
If this "An AR ... is an AW because the detachable magazine is outside the pistol grip that it does not have." reasoning were actually true, it would mean EVERY hunting rifle with a non-pistol grip traditional style stock and a removable magazine would be an AW. That is NOT going to fly.

In order for there to be an "outside the pistol grip", there must be a pistol grip with an "inside".

Which is why the spade grip for my 1919a4 gets delivered on Thursday.

This does all depend on the use of logic.

When you start using Democratic illegalese, anything is possible. I just wish that they would use it to prove that black is white and get themselves killed on the next zebra crossing.

Last edited by Ayorique; 08-19-2020 at 10:06 AM.. Reason: Expanding on previous comment.
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  #406  
Old 08-19-2020, 8:49 AM
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In what manner would I have to disable the feed mechanism for the M2HB to no longer be considered semi-automatic? Would the DROS/paperwork have to be modified? Would this make it a non-AW "Other"? I'd like to be able to use it in the near-term without any expensive modification and then maybe fabricate a stock and firing mechanism similar to the AN/M2 Stinger so that I can re-enable semi-automatic feed.

M2HB Stock Fabrication based on AN/M2 Stinger

This is pending any better ideas...
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  #407  
Old 08-19-2020, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
In what manner would I have to disable the feed mechanism for the M2HB to no longer be considered semi-automatic? Would the DROS/paperwork have to be modified? Would this make it a non-AW "Other"? I'd like to be able to use it in the near-term without any expensive modification and then maybe fabricate a stock and firing mechanism similar to the AN/M2 Stinger so that I can re-enable semi-automatic feed.

M2HB Stock Fabrication based on AN/M2 Stinger

This is pending any better ideas...
If your M2HB has a bolt hold latch, using it breaks the cycle of being a semi-automatic gun.
DOJ definition of semiautomatic
Quote:
""(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the
empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. ""
The military sees using the bolt latch, as a way of converting an auto loading M2HB to a single shot weapon
Basically, every time the trigger is pulled, and the gun cycles, the bolt latch, latches onto the bolt as it is moving forward and stops the reloading cycle
To fire another round, the bolt must be manually released, by pressing on the bolt latch button.

The bolt latch / bolt release button, is separate from the butterfly trigger.

Only the bolt going forward, reloads the weapon.

Semi-automatic conversions, do NOT automatically fire, after the bolt is all the way forward. Only after the bolt is all the way forward, and the trigger resets, can you to pull the trigger again, to fire.
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Last edited by Tankhatch; 08-19-2020 at 8:54 PM..
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  #408  
Old 08-19-2020, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayorique View Post
This does all depend on the use of logic.
Logic need not apply to legislators.
They just let the courts fix it.
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  #409  
Old 08-23-2020, 2:43 PM
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My local gun shop told me today that they sold a 1919 after SB118 was signed into law, and that their "Rep" said that the belt counts as a fixed magazine. Is this true? This would imply that the m2hb and 1919 count as having a fixed magazine. Any thoughts on this?
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  #410  
Old 08-23-2020, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
My local gun shop told me today that they sold a 1919 after SB118 was signed into law, and that their "Rep" said that the belt counts as a fixed magazine. Is this true? This would imply that the m2hb and 1919 count as having a fixed magazine. Any thoughts on this?
Might have been "born" as a rifle, on the paperwork ?
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  #411  
Old 08-23-2020, 3:28 PM
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At some point everyone who considers themselves a patriot needs to just throw 2 middle fingers in the air.
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  #412  
Old 08-23-2020, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
...
(m) “Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. An ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, spring and rivet/pin) constitutes a detachable magazine.

(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
At first glance this would seem to be stating that a fixed magazine is a "Detachable magazine", but if you consider the second part of the sentence "that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required". The 1919 and M2HB require lifting the top cover to remove the belt. When the top cover is lifted the feed mechanism is disabled.

It's very noteworthy that under this interpretation, under the new SB118 definition, an 1919 or M2HB without a stock could be considered a fixed magazine other. If this is true, it can NEVER have more than 10 rounds in the belt:

Quote:
(10) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Last edited by vvortex3; 08-23-2020 at 7:31 PM..
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  #413  
Old 08-23-2020, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
At first glance this would seem to be stating that a fixed magazine is a "Detachable magazine", but if you consider the second part of the sentence "that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required". The 1919 and M2HB require lifting the top cover to remove the belt. When the top cover is lifted the feed mechanism is disabled.

It's very noteworthy that under this interpretation, under the new SB118 definition, an 1919 or M2HB without a stock could be considered a fixed magazine other. If this is true, it can NEVER have more than 10 rounds in the belt:
That is not current regulations -
Quote:
11 CCR § 5469
§ 5469. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Who Must Register.
Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined in Penal Code section 30515, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool (commonly referred to as a bullet-button weapon) must register the firearm before July 1, 2018.
You want 5471
Quote:
§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.
For purposes of Penal Code section 30900 and Articles 2 and 3 of this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
...
(m) “Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. An ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, spring and rivet/pin) constitutes a detachable magazine.

(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
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  #414  
Old 08-23-2020, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
Thank you Librarian! Would lifting the top cover constitute "Disassembly of the firarm action" ? I'm unable to remove the "magazine" of 10 links without doing so. The weapon will not feed with it open.

To me this leaves at least 3 interpretations:

1) Because it was DROS'ed as a rifle, it's a rifle with a 10 round fixed mag. This would only be illegal in California if it were .50 BMG.
2) Because of its physical characteristics it is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, has a fixed 10 round magazine formed by 10 links and is therefore not an assault weapon
3) With a stock, it's possible that the 1919 or M2HB could be a featureless rifle which may allow more than 10 rounds (if posessed legally) without becoming an assault weapon.

Last edited by vvortex3; 08-23-2020 at 7:35 PM..
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  #415  
Old 08-23-2020, 8:27 PM
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Quote:
With a stock, it's possible that the 1919 or M2HB could be a featureless rifle which may allow more than 10 rounds (if posessed legally) without becoming an assault weapon.
M2HB with stock, maybe a featureless rifle, but if it shoots 50 BMG caliber, it is an a-salt weapon.
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  #416  
Old 08-23-2020, 9:07 PM
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Opinion, Kalifornia wants any semi-automatic weapon, regardless of magazine capacity, to be an assault weapon.

Next would be, any weapon that fires a metallic cartridge, will be declared an assault weapon.

Next would be, any weapon, that uses a percussion cap, will be declared an assault weapon.

Next would be, any weapon, that uses flint as a ignition source, would be declared an assault weapon.

But the politicians would allow us to own match locks, because they do not want to violate our 2nd Amendment rights.
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  #417  
Old 08-23-2020, 9:27 PM
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So does this mean my Stag Arms M4 with a fixed 10 round magazine, adjustable stock and pistol grip, is now considered an AW?
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  #418  
Old 08-23-2020, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DolphinFan View Post
So does this mean my Stag Arms M4 with a fixed 10 round magazine, adjustable stock and pistol grip, is now considered an AW?
That is a rifle, you are safe for NOW.

Discussion is about SB118 that the Governor back doored and just signed into law. It deals with anything that is NOT a rifle, Not a pistol, Not a shotgun.
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Last edited by Tankhatch; 08-23-2020 at 9:53 PM..
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  #419  
Old 08-23-2020, 9:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankhatch View Post
Opinion, Kalifornia wants any semi-automatic weapon, regardless of magazine capacity, to be an assault weapon.



Next would be, any weapon that fires a metallic cartridge, will be declared an assault weapon.



Next would be, any weapon, that uses a percussion cap, will be declared an assault weapon.



Next would be, any weapon, that uses flint as a ignition source, would be declared an assault weapon.



But the politicians would allow us to own match locks, because they do not want to violate our 2nd Amendment rights.
If these Democrat politicians really think 2nd Amendment only applies to guns during the period constitution was signed, then they would have no problem with militias being formed and using our 2nd Amendment to extinguish enemies, both foreign and domestic in order to keep a Free State and we should be able to open carry everywhere with our blackpowder guns? Has that been argued?

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  #420  
Old 08-24-2020, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by S.O.A.R. View Post
If these Democrat politicians really think 2nd Amendment only applies to guns during the period constitution was signed, then they would have no problem with militias being formed and using our 2nd Amendment to extinguish enemies, both foreign and domestic in order to keep a Free State and we should be able to open carry everywhere with our blackpowder guns? Has that been argued?

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Surely they must be in agreement that I should have the right to wear my powdered wig and carry my musket in public if this is the case.
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  #421  
Old 08-25-2020, 8:21 AM
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I guess I'm ok dealing with with a 10 round mag limit temporarily. It's better than registration. I think all of the round limit laws will unravel now that it has been declared unconstitutional so it may just be a matter of waiting.
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  #422  
Old 08-25-2020, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
I guess I'm ok dealing with with a 10 round mag limit temporarily. It's better than registration. I think all of the round limit laws will unravel now that it has been declared unconstitutional so it may just be a matter of waiting.
You must be new to how California, the courts, and firearms litigation works... CA gun owners always lose in the end. Just wait and see. This will go the way of Peruta and all the other so called wins.
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  #423  
Old 08-25-2020, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
I guess I'm ok dealing with with a 10 round mag limit temporarily.
I think all of the round limit laws will unravel now that it has been declared unconstitutional so it may just be a matter of waiting.
The possible change in the mag SALES and POSESSION law will have NO effect on your ability to use standard capacity magazines in a fixed magazine rifle because a fixed magazine rifle can not hold more than 10 rounds.
That's a completely different set of laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
It's better than registration.
It's funny how often you hear this from people that bought rifles in CA after 2014 because those rifles are ALREADY registered.
Check out this post from October 2017:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvortex3 View Post
I'm a total beginner and first time gun owner.
I recently purchased an AR-15 lower receiver from a dealer here in CA.

Last edited by ar15barrels; 08-25-2020 at 1:48 PM..
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  #424  
Old 08-25-2020, 1:58 PM
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Truth Randall. Truth.

For anyone trying to go against Randall, the reason you pay $1 background checks for ammo is because you’re in the AFS, i.e. you’re gun is registered
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  #425  
Old 08-25-2020, 2:43 PM
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For anyone trying to go against Randall
Never go against the Randall

Gehen Sie niemals gegen den Randall

ランドールに反対しないでください

Nigdy nie walcz przeciwko Randallowi

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  #426  
Old 08-30-2020, 9:36 AM
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I should have been more specific. I would like for my weapon to remain classified as Rifle/Other and not as an assault rifle. I'm not going against anyone here. I'm just trying to keep my weapon in legal compliance.

I suppose the word registration is incorrect use of terminology on my part. I'd like to avoid a legal necessity to register my weapon as an assault weapon specifically. It seems that limiting the use to 10 rounds, or adding a stock can accomplish that in the short term.

Hoping that the 9th court decision regarding magazine limits unravels the other similar mag limit laws is probably just wishful thinking on my part.
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  #427  
Old 08-30-2020, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder View Post
Surely they must be in agreement that I should have the right to wear my powdered wig and carry my musket in public if this is the case.
Well, we did have a local guy here get arrested and have his disabled non-firing musket seized by the PD last summer for walking through town with it slung on his back, while in mountain man regalia and taking pictures with tourists...
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  #428  
Old 09-15-2020, 7:31 PM
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Lineage of the term (barrel) shroud, starts out life as Brady Campaign FUD.
The term "barrel shroud" was uploaded to Wikipedia, sometime in 2007, using the Brady Campaign FUD verbiage.
(This Wikipedia entry was later revise to remove this Brady Campaign sensationalizing, as quoted below)
Quote:
"The barrel shroud is a feature normally found only on military-style firearms. Its primary purpose is to allow the shooter to grasp the barrel and sweep the weapon from side to side while firing rapidly -- called a "spray fire" technique -- without burning his or her hands. It also helps to stabilize the weapon during rapid firing."
Author uploaded a picture of a MG-42 as an example of weapon with barrel shroud.
Author also uploaded a picture of a Winchester Model 12 combat shotgun, saying it has a barrel shroud and attached bayonet.

Looks like CA legislators, almost plagiarized that current revised version of that Wikipedia entry. (they added / deleted words, that is maybe why the sentences in SB118 / AB88, look so disoriented)

Wikipedia entry link; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shroud
Wikipedia talk page link, for discussing improvements to the Barrel shroud article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barrel_shroud.

Article gives some insight, so YMMV

Please assume DOJ trolls and subversive trolls, a watching this discussion.
PLEASE do not discuss ""work arounds"" (a fruitless request, I know)
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  #429  
Old 09-16-2020, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankhatch View Post
Lineage of the term (barrel) shroud, starts out life as Brady Campaign FUD.

The term "barrel shroud" was uploaded to Wikipedia, sometime in 2007, using the Brady Campaign FUD verbiage.

(This Wikipedia entry was later revise to remove this Brady Campaign sensationalizing, as quoted below)



Author uploaded a picture of a MG-42 as an example of weapon with barrel shroud.

Author also uploaded a picture of a Winchester Model 12 combat shotgun, saying it has a barrel shroud and attached bayonet.



Looks like CA legislators, almost plagiarized that current revised version of that Wikipedia entry. (they added / deleted words, that is maybe why the sentences in SB118 / AB88, look so disoriented)



Wikipedia entry link; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shroud

Wikipedia talk page link, for discussing improvements to the Barrel shroud article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barrel_shroud.



Article gives some insight, so YMMV



Please assume DOJ trolls and subversive trolls, a watching this discussion.

PLEASE do not discuss ""work arounds"" (a fruitless request, I know)
This is hilarious. I doubt any seasoned combat military use a spray and pray technique.

Also has there ever been a recorded case of assault with a bayonet attached to a rifle?
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:01 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
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This is hilarious. I doubt any seasoned combat military use a spray and pray technique.

Also has there ever been a recorded case of assault with a bayonet attached to a rifle?
I believe there has, actually. There was one not too long ago where, IIRC, the criminal made use of the bayonet on his SKS.
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Old 09-24-2020, 8:34 PM
Sal0327 Sal0327 is offline
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Old 09-25-2020, 8:38 AM
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Originally Posted by TFA777 View Post
This is hilarious. I doubt any seasoned combat military use a spray and pray technique.

Also has there ever been a recorded case of assault with a bayonet attached to a rifle?
A sort of spray and pray happens during cover fire at times.

There is also a US Army medal of honor recipient back in a war long ago who killed over 30 enemies with a bayonet... I think it was 10+, maybe 30 is a bit exaggeration on my part...

Lewis Millet lead the last major American bayonet charge during Korean War.

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