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[rodralig]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Then we did a drill where we shoot 6 shots. Load the weapon with a mag with 5 rounds and when the gun is empty do an emergency reload and get one more shot off. Drill was supposed to get you used to managing recoil with shots of rapid succession while throwing in running the gun dry and having to reload and get another shot off.

interesting Vinnie... i remember you heavily flamed me when i shared a dry practice video of a similar drill as a response to a different OP a couple of years back... if i would recall correctly, you immediately criticized it as a useless drill, we didnt know how to train, and was a waste of ammo, or something to that effect...

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Much more modern and what Iv'e experienced in other more "combat" based classes I've taken elsewhere. What ai like about those types of classes is the techniques that they use and teach have reasons and rationales for why they are the way they re with real-world examples to support why it's done that way, and when something new comes along that proves it's better that what was preciously taught they incorporate that into the curriculum.

but it is good to hear that you are now more open-minded to different approaches. i read elsewhere that you have incorporated Scott's draw for a red dot, and of course, you have taken several of Max's classes...



anyways thanks for your day to day review of PF. really wanted one last time to try it out, in particular the new curriculum. but alas, the $250/day the time I am able to make it out is just not worth it. so, i will simply experience it vicariously through your after action report.


_

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by rodralig

interesting Vinnie... i remember you heavily flamed me when i shared a dry practice video of a similar drill as a response to a different OP a couple of years back... if i would recall correctly, you immediately criticized it as a useless drill, we didnt know how to train, and was a waste of ammo, or something to that effect...




but it is good to hear that you are now more open-minded to different approaches. i read elsewhere that you have incorporated Scott's draw for a red dot, and of course, you have taken several of Max's classes...



anyways thanks for your day to day review of PF. really wanted one last time to try it out, in particular the new curriculum. but alas, the $250/day the time I am able to make it out is just not worth it. so, i will simply experience it vicariously through your after action report. When I was brand new and didn't know a darn thing, what would the point be to do a drill like that? In that case, yes it was a waste or ammo and accomplishes nothing.


_

I am trying to attend classes with whoever, whenever I can. Tried to sign up for a couple Thunder Ranch classes later this year but the ones that I wanted to take during the times I had off from work were already full. Also attending another Appleseed class next month, but I'm sure a class like that is well beneath your level, but for $75 it's a killer 2-day class.

Lots of things I like and other things I don't like with any class I take. You take what you like and incorporate it into your own practice and ignore the stuff you don't like. For a brand new shooter I still think rapid fire drills like that are kind of dumb if they can't mitigate and control recoil with single shots yet, nor have the fundamentals and basics down to consistency shoot straight. I still stand by that and say there are a LOT of folks who go out, but a firearm, pimp it out with all the cool mods and crap that they think they need while spending a ton of money doing so and on a bunch of gear because it looks cool and because Reddit tells you to, yet spend little time and investment in actually training and getting good, solid instruction. As an instructor said once, if all you do is go to a range and crank off a bunch of shots without knowing what you're doing, you're just spending money and making noise.

[BadKitty]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Next we moved on to tactical and emergency reloads. Tactical reloads are now taught but taking a mag out of your pouch, indexing and then they showed us two different ways to remove the mag int he gun while retaining the new mag int he same hand. I was taught this method elsewhere recently as well. So you have the new mag in your hand in your middle, ring and pinky fingers and use your thumb and index finger to remove the mag in the gun, insert the new mag, give it a tug to ensure it's seated properly and then put the old mag in a pocket. Emergency reloads no longer involve doing a "mag check" first, otherwise are the same.

...

They type III is more in line with what I've learned in other classes that were more "combat focused" I guess. Weapon comes back into your work space and you tap, rack. If that doesn't fix the issue (and you'll see that it didn't fix the issue because it's up in your workspace) you simply press the magazine release and forcefully rip out the magazine, retain it (I retain it with my pinky finger of my firing hand) then rack it several times, re-insert the mag you retained, charge the gun and get back on target.

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

[XDJYo]

Thanks Vinnie for the in depth review! Appreciate the time and effort it took to do this for the CG community!

Sounds like PF is improving the FS course and hopefully it can continue and survive.

ETA: Do they still have the machine gun shoot at lunch? J/K.

Something like THIS would be awesome!
https://youtu.be/iG4nbelx7nM

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

They do not and never did teach a mag check and chamber check during an emergency reload. They only taught mag checks and chamber checks where when you got up to the firing line and loaded your weapon to begin an exercise. They teach it differently now. You come out of your holster, out to the ready then up into your workspace, load your magazine, give it a tug to make sure it's seated, rack the slide then do a chamber check (all up in the workspace) and then proceed.

Every place teaches Type 3 malfunction clearances a little differently, but in the end they're very similar and accomplish the same end result which is to clear the malfunction and get back the weapon running again. I personally always try to retain the mag. It's actually faster (I've timed myself clearing the malfunction by stripping it to the ground and by retaining it and retaining it is faster). Also, you may not have a spare mag available, and dumping that mag/possibly your only mag would not be a good idea if that was the case. So you strip that mag to the ground, clear the malfunction and then realize you have no spare mag in your pouch. Now what? I've also seen people stow the mag under their arm/in their armpit of their firing side while clearing the malfunction if you don't like retaining it with a pinky or your hands are too small to do so. Some places teach you to lock the slide back like the old Front Sight way, while other places (including Prairie Fire) teach you to hold the mag release while forcefully ripping the mag out and do not teach you to lock the slice back. Many different ways to do the same thing that hopefully achieves the same end result.

Just don't be the student in any class that says "we do it this way at my agency", or, "we do it differently at this other place I train at." This happens a bunch with travel nurses who come in for temporary contracts and say, "Well, that's not how we do it at the hospital I came from", etc. Guess what? We don't care how you did it somewhere else because you're here now. When I was a travel nurse I would tell the staff, "I'm a guest in your house. You show he how you want me to do it while I'm here."

Was actually talking about the with a couple other students yesterday. We were commenting on learning the new curriculum and how we've been enjoying it even if it's been a sometimes frustrating transition for a few in the class. I've also seen it during other classes where a student invests time and money coming to a class but is resistant and pushes back on things being taught or refuses to try it and keeps going back to the way they're comfortable with. Why bother coming to a class if all you're going to do is push back and not have an open mind and try something new? My take is they're probably a bit self-conscious or embarrassed to try the new techniques fr fear of not sooting well during the class. The thing is nobody else cares how you're shooting. That type of person would be better off saving their money, and what I've found is if there is something I'm having a lot of trouble with and suck at it, that's the exact thing I need to focus on and practice the most.

[Citizen_B]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

Thank you for the reviews so far. My agency does tactical reload as a standard, so that would come easy to me in the class. What PF calls emergency reloads we call "speed reloads". I have *never* stopped to do a mag check or chamber check on an emergency/speed reload. FS was teaching that? (???) The whole point of the emergency/speed reload is that you are taking fire, your mag ran dry, and you need to get back in the fight pronto.

As for the Type III malfunction - interesting take on retaining the stripped mag in your hand while racking and then reinserting it. At my agency, we do: lock slide to the rear - forcefully strip mag to the ground - rack 3x - insert fresh mag from pouch - tap rack and roll. Did they explain why retaining the mag inbetween your pinky was preferable to stripping the mag to the ground?

As Vinnie replied above, neither FS nor PF was teaching emergency/speed reload with an accompanying mag/chamber check.

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

My other minor disagreement with PF method is with tugging on the mag after loading. I understand it's administrative but I don't find it useful. I think the mag should be inserted with sufficient force to ensure it's seated every time, and everyone should be training that way. If for some reason I think it may not be seated, I actually put my firing hand pinky below the inserted mag and can feel if it's seated or not. Again, just my thing. The PF method is WAY better than the FS method which would have you actually eject the mag then reinsert it. That never made any sense to me for a number of reasons and glad to see it's gone from the PF curriculum.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

<tactical reload> I was taught this method elsewhere recently as well. So you have the new mag in your hand in your middle, ring and pinky fingers and use your thumb and index finger to remove the mag in the gun, insert the new mag, give it a tug to ensure it's seated properly and then put the old mag in a pocket.

FS also taught this technique many moons ago.

Class focused on a quick recap of the previous day then moved into malfunctions. they don't call them type I, II, III., etc. They only teach two types (what was previously called type I and Type III) but I apologize as I already forgot the terms they used to describe the two. They type III is more in line with what I've learned in other classes that were more "combat focused" I guess. Weapon comes back into your work space and you tap, rack. If that doesn't fix the issue (and you'll see that it didn't fix the issue because it's up in your workspace) you simply press the magazine release and forcefully rip out the magazine, retain it (I retain it with my pinky finger of my firing hand) then rack it several times, re-insert the mag you retained, charge the gun and get back on target.

That's effectively the 'Its far more likely to be a Type I/II so try that first technique' - reasonably effective on a handgun, but it doesn't translate as well to non handguns as its much more difficult to know if it worked without trying to shoot. I think malfunction assessment is faster technique in the real world, but this technique for handgun competition shooting is nearly always faster.


Thanks for the review.

[BadKitty]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Just don't be the student in any class that says "we do it this way at my agency", or, "we do it differently at this other place I train at." This happens a bunch with travel nurses who come in for temporary contracts and say, "Well, that's not how we do it at the hospital I came from", etc. Guess what? We don't care how you did it somewhere else because you're here now. When I was a travel nurse I would tell the staff, "I'm a guest in your house. You show he how you want me to do it while I'm here."

Was actually talking about the with a couple other students yesterday. We were commenting on learning the new curriculum and how we've been enjoying it even if it's been a sometimes frustrating transition for a few in the class. I've also seen it during other classes where a student invests time and money coming to a class but is resistant and pushes back on things being taught or refuses to try it and keeps going back to the way they're comfortable with. Why bother coming to a class if all you're going to do is push back and not have an open mind and try something new? My take is they're probably a bit self-conscious or embarrassed to try the new techniques fr fear of not sooting well during the class. The thing is nobody else cares how you're shooting. That type of person would be better off saving their money, and what I've found is if there is something I'm having a lot of trouble with and suck at it, that's the exact thing I need to focus on and practice the most.

I hope my post wasn't misunderstood. I did not intend imply that I would refuse to learn any new techniques. On the contrary, I was interested in the differences you posted and I was asking about them out of interest in learning something. Rest assured, when I go to a class, I perform whatever is being instructed. What's the point of going to a class if I refuse to consider alternate options?

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

As for Type-III malfunctions, truth be told, they don't always go the "textbook" way for me (how I described in my post). I hit the mag release at the same time I'm bringing the slide back to lock it. If the mag drops out on its own and I'm not jammed up, then I skip the full lock and go straight to the rack. I don't ever need to rack "three times". As soon as I see the round fly out I'm reaching for the next mag and not wasting time with extra racks just because the agency manual says so. When I reinsert my mag, it almost always slaps the slide back into battery without me having to rack. So, no need to tap rack roll when I'm already in battery. I only do the "full textbook" demonstration once a year during the annual requal because we are required to demonstrate all of the steps.

.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

As Vinnie replied above, neither FS nor PF was teaching emergency/speed reload with an accompanying mag/chamber check.

For Type 3 malfunction, also as Vinnie replied PF teaches strip/rip to the ground or retain. I think the "correct" method really depends on the shooter/gun/circumstances. For myself, when mag is released, I take a quick glance at the top of the mag to see what's going on before instinctually retaining in firing hand. Typically the top round is just a little out of place in which case I know the mag is still good. A few times the round has been way out of place in which case I drop it and insert a new mag. All this happens pretty fast and my decision to drop or not occurs at the same time I'm clearing out the chamber so no time is lost.

I do have some disagreement with PF on a couple of minor points here. PF is teaching NOT to lock the slide back before ripping mag. I think that works for some people and some guns, but not all. For myself and the couple of people I've gone with, not locking the slide back typically wastes a lot more time trying to rip the mag out. Locking it back (like how FS used to teach and other schools currently do) takes the pressure off the double fed round that's partially still in the mag so ripping it out is much easier. I knew that going in to my PF class and just ignored their instruction to not lock back.

My other minor disagreement with PF method is with tugging on the mag after loading. I understand it's administrative but I don't find it useful. I think the mag should be inserted with sufficient force to ensure it's seated every time, and everyone should be training that way. If for some reason I think it may not be seated, I actually put my firing hand pinky below the inserted mag and can feel if it's seated or not. Again, just my thing. The PF method is WAY better than the FS method which would have you actually eject the mag then reinsert it. That never made any sense to me for a number of reasons and glad to see it's gone from the PF curriculum.

Agree with pretty much everything here. Throwing to the ground depends on a few things?condition of the mag, whether or not the shooter has hands big enough and/or is coordinated enough to retain and the retype of handgun being used. As stated, each pistol is different and I have some pistols where you just cannot get that mag out without locking it back first. Others, like my G17 where I use Vickers base plates on all my mags, you can easily rip that mag out without locking the slide back. Another thing to note, when ripping mags out and not locking back the slide, be VERY careful if you pick up your rounds off the ground. Using that method of forcefully ripping out the mags without locking the slide back I noticed several bullets being pushed back into the case. If I would have loaded and tried to fire those rounds it could have been bad. That?s why I just left them on the ground. Not worth the risk.

Regarding the mag tug, this is something that just varied from school to school. One place I took a class didn’t have us tug, other places taught the tug. One school taught us to give the back of the slide a little “ chop” after chambering a round and before going back to the holster to ensure the weapon is in battery. Little things that vary from school to school that we can choose to incorporate or not incorporate into our own routines.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by BadKitty

I hope my post wasn't misunderstood. I did not intend imply that I would refuse to learn any new techniques. On the contrary, I was interested in the differences you posted and I was asking about them out of interest in learning something. Rest assured, when I go to a class, I perform whatever is being instructed. What's the point of going to a class if I refuse to consider alternate options?

.

Absolutely wasn’t interpreted that way at all, and sort of it came across that way! It just reminded me of students in the past who come to the class and instead of having an open mind and trying. EQ things decided to lecture the instructors on how they do it and apparently thought they were the ones tea hing the class.

I bought a couple friends out with me once. I vowed to never bring them out again. They fought the instructors tors in everything, complained and kept saying things like, ?when I was a firearms instructor for in the military we did it this way, etc.?. My other buddy and I just kept distancing ourselves from them on the firing line as the class progressed. Funny thing, those two know-it-alls (husband and wife) came in dead last on the skills text. My other buddy, also former military didn?t say a word about his background, was receptive and floored what they were teaching and was open-minded to the instruction and shot Graduate on the skills text.