Cajunized CZ (Carry a modified gun)

[Chaco99]

I have a p01 that I would love to put on my upcoming CCW permit, however, I'm having second thoughts as my CCW class instructor stated something to the effect that even though a shooting may be justified as self defense and no criminal charges would be filed in that event, in a civil case, I "would" be held liable due to the trigger being lightened beyond factory. I've always thought this was hogwash but he seemed so certain this to be the case, and, has light-years more experience than I do so now I'm second guessing this firearm for CCW. For reference, the first double action pull is about 7lbs which is way heavier than a stock Glock at 4.5 to 5.5 lbs. The single action is 2.5-3ish lbs though which does worry me concerning this issue. I appreciate everyone's feedback and opinions/experiences or knowledge on this issue pertaining to a civil case. Thanks.

[Helmut]

I'd be more worried about having an over zealous DA going after me in a SD shooting over a modified trigger.

I tend to keep all my permitted guns stock with the exception of sights.

[9Cal_OC]

IIRC there’s no documented cases with modified triggers if it’s a good shoot.

If I were you, I’d just carry a different gun where the trigger meets my satisfaction (for a CCW gun) or train with it in its stock configuration until you’re confident with the stock trigger.

[Chaco99]

I'm perfectly fine with the trigger as is and I am confident and competent with said firearm, which would obviously only be used as a nuclear option as an absolute last resort to defend my life or the life of my family so I'll take my chances with not being prosecuted if that ever happened. l'm just concerned about liability in a civil case, but if there are no documented instances of civil cases being ruled in favor of the plaintiff with trigger modification being a contributing factor, then I think it's a non issue as well. I have no issue just using a stock Glock, it's just my speed and accuracy are notably better with this CZ so why would I not want to use it and risk missing. I would put in the time necessary to be as competent with the Glock if this trigger modification proves to be an issue.

[Mute]

I do not know of a single civil case where a trigger mod became an issue in a justified use of force situation. Either you intended to pull the trigger or you didn't. If it was pulled intentionally, it doesn't matter how much the trigger pull weighed.

[L84CABO]

Did your CCW instructor provide you with a reference to any actual court cases where an otherwise good shoot turned into a bad shoot specifically because someone did a REASONABLE mod to their gun?

This issue gets brought up all the time but so far I have NEVER seen anyone bring it up with a reference to an actual court case. To that end...with all the cases out there...there may be a few where this has actually happened. But it certainly does not appear to be a high number.

My take on this is that my first concern is surviving the fight so that I'm alive to face whatever is next. Accordingly, I will make whatever REASONABLE modifications that will help improve my chances of survival, including REASONABLE trigger improvements. Obviously if you lighten your trigger to 2 lbs and then unintentionally ND into a bad guy, you will probably have a problem in court.

I would, however, fully expect an aggressive prosecutor to go after anything he thinks he can use to paint you in a bad light. This may include modifications to your gun, things you posted on social media, etc. So choose/plan wisely and make sure you have a really good attorney. Or if you are super worried about this, don't modify your carry gun.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by Mute

I do not know of a single civil case where a trigger mod became an issue in a justified use of force situation. Either you intended to pull the trigger or you didn't. If it was pulled intentionally, it doesn't matter how much the trigger pull weighed.

If the shooting is deemed justified by LEOs/DAs there is no trial. With no trial, there is no verdict. With no verdict, there is no appeal so there is no case citation to look to. In a civil case, same rules apply but since jail time isn't on the table, negotiated settlements might lessen the availability of citable cases.

None of us knows what will or won't happen. But here are some considerations:

In asserting self-defense, you are denying any other defense (mistake, equipment failure, etc.). You are asserting that you fully intended to fire the weapon. You will then have to prove the shooting was intentional and not a mistake caused by the light trigger or some other circumstance. Expert witnesses may be called to explain why it's a bad idea to lighten the trigger pull on a self-defense weapon (Mas Ayoob would show up -- for a fee).

Before all of that, you're going to be asked a lot of questions (with your lawyer present). If a civil case is filed against you there will be more questions. More questions and more answers lead to more questions which provide opportunities for you to screw up. Why provide the subject matter for more questions?

Scenario 1:
-Cops:/Lawyers: Has the gun been modified in any way?
--You: Yes.
-Cops/Lawyers: What modifications were made?
--You: The trigger pull has been lightened.
-Cops/Lawyers.
--Why did you do that?
--What's the factory pull weight?
--What's the pull reduced to?
--Who did the work?
--Are they Factory-Certified?
--So you modified it to go off more easily?
--Yada Yada

Once you've established all of the great things you've done to your gun, they will be compared to the manufacturer's stated perception of their weapon. Examples:

-CZ75B PCR: the relatively longer and heavier trigger pull for the first round requires the conscious decision to pull the trigger before firing.
-CZ USA 75 Compact: smooth double action and crisp single action
-CZ 75 P-01: 3 years of some of the most aggressive small arms testing ever.

Yet you, with all of your profound experience in firearms and engineering, knew modifications were needed to lighten the trigger to accommodate your advanced skills?

////////

Scenario #2:
-Cops:/Lawyers: Has the gun been modified in any way?
-You: No.
-Cops/Lawyers: OK.

If I have to shoot somebody with my carry gun, they're going to be shot with a plain-Jane, out-of-the-box Glock with factory SD ammunition. Trigger mod? Why? I'm not shooting at folks 25 yards out (we need an imminent threat). Sight modification? Why? If you need sights to shoot at people 25 yards away you're shooting at too great a distance and endangering bystanders.

This is short-notice, short dwell-time close combat with a massive adrenaline and endorphin dump. A trigger dropped below factory specs isn't an advantage. The only advantage is having a weapon that goes Bang! every time and doesn't become the sole source of discussion in the aftermath.

YMMV.

Your life; Your dice. Roll 'em.

[Chaco99]

Thank you all for your in depth and thoughtful replies. Dvrjohn, you make good points and I will likely carry a stock G19 also.

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

Scenario 1:
-Cops:/Lawyers: Has the gun been modified in any way?
--You: Yes.
-Cops/Lawyers: What modifications were made?
--You: The trigger pull has been lightened.
-Cops/Lawyers.
--Why did you do that?
--What's the factory pull weight?
--What's the pull reduced to?
--Who did the work?
--Are they Factory-Certified?
--So you modified it to go off more easily?
--Yada Yada

Scenario #2:
-Cops:/Lawyers:
-You: No.
-Cops/Lawyers: OK.

Scenario #3:

-Cops/Lawyers: Has the gun been modified in any way?
- Me (No matter if it has or has not.): This is my lawyer, you can ask him any and all questions, I have nothing to say to you.

FWIW OP: I can carry whatever I like, I carry a mechanically stock G19 with good sights. I just feel it's best.

[JoyfulJoker]

I have 9400 rounds through my P-01. All internals are stock. It’s very smooth in comparison to the gritty trigger it started out as. Currently , with a 20# hammer spring , the double action is 6.42 lbs and the single action is 2.97. That’s not excessive. The more you use it, the smoother it gets. I don’t see it getting any lighter. I carry it daily.

I changed sights and grips , but that’s it.

I have a cajunized SP-01 with a trigger job, but it’s only slightly different . A smooth trigger seems to be as important as a light trigger.

My I A stated the conditions of no mods that deviate from manufacturer specifications. So a Sig.SRT or grip module for a Sig pistol is ok as they are the manufacturer . Since CGW is not the manufacturer, their parts are off the table. Of course I use their recoil and hammer springs . A little cheat … I installed their trigger return spring which does lighten the DA by 1/2 lb. You think someone can tell one trigger return spring from another?

Masaad Ayoub quoted a case of a negligent discharge and the modified trigger was used against the gun owner.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by ACfixer

Scenario #3:

-Cops/Lawyers: Has the gun been modified in any way?
- Me (No matter if it has or has not.): This is my lawyer, you can ask him any and all questions, I have nothing to say to you.

FWIW OP: I can carry whatever I like, I carry a mechanically stock G19 with good sights. I just feel it's best.

You forgot to tell OP you?re in TN, where constitutional carry is the norm, and a place that puts its law-abiding citizens first.

[HPBrowningMK3]

Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker

Masaad Ayoub quoted a case of a negligent discharge and the modified trigger was used against the gun owner.

Yup, the dude was in deep ****. And If a person is in the wrong, the modified gun will be the least of his problems. You can bet your paycheck on it.


We used to say "Oh not this **** again!" when some people would bend over backward to scare Joe gun owner from modifying a handgun so that he can be a more responsible handgun owner and user. If it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot, God damn it!

Cheers!
BHP

[Chaco99]

Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker

I have 9400 rounds through my P-01. All internals are stock. It?s very smooth in comparison to the gritty trigger it started out as. Currently , with a 20# hammer spring , the double action is 6.42 lbs and the single action is 2.97. That?s not excessive. The more you use it, the smoother it gets. I don?t see it getting any lighter. I carry it daily.

I changed sights and grips , but that?s it.

I have a cajunized SP-01 with a trigger job, but it?s only slightly different . A smooth trigger seems to be as important as a light trigger.

My I A stated the conditions of no mods that deviate from manufacturer specifications. So a Sig.SRT or grip module for a Sig pistol is ok as they are the manufacturer . Since CGW is not the manufacturer, their parts are off the table. Of course I use their recoil and hammer springs . A little cheat ? I installed their trigger return spring which does lighten the DA by 1/2 lb. You think someone can tell one trigger return spring from another?

Masaad Ayoub quoted a case of a negligent discharge and the modified trigger was used against the gun owner.

In agreement on the smoothness of the trigger being more important than the weight, however mine was about 11 lbs and was too heavy imho. 8 lbs give or take is more appropriate and plenty safe. It was actually the cam of the hammer in single action mode that drove me nuts. it was literally like a 3 stage trigger. Also, coming from Glocks and sigs, the cz without the short reset system in is pretty bad. Actually, I love everything about the cz75 series except the trigger, probably the most atrocious thing I've ever shot. Cajun parts made it a dream. Either way, the p-01 and the g19 will be on the permit so i guess its a non issue if I just decide to carry the g19

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker

Masaad Ayoub quoted a case of a negligent discharge and the modified trigger was used against the gun owner.

Actually, the gun owner was using the hair trigger mod as an explanation for his error in shooting. It wasn’t his fault; he didn’t mean to shoot.

Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3

Yup, the dude was in deep ****. And If a person is in the wrong, the modified gun will be the least of his problems. You can bet your paycheck on it.

Great example. Ayoob used to push the 1985 case of Maglioto (32-year old millionaire banker) in New York as a trigger mod problem. Maglioto had a snub-nose revolver which had trigger work done to create a single-action hair trigger. [Bypass circumstances leading up to shooting.]

Maglioto was in the street, cocked the revolver, took a shooting stance and pointed the gun at the other guy?s head. A car came by and startled Maglioto?he flinched and triggered the gun?the other guy took it in the forehead and subsequently died.

Maglioto left the scene and surrendered days later. He admitted he didn?t intend to shoot () closing out any claim of self-defense. That made it a bad shoot. He caught 15 years-life (late reduced to 4-12 years on appeal). Ayoob later stated that, had the gun not been cocked, the longer trigger pull might have helped frame the case differently.

But the real issues in Maglioto have little to do with the gun. These hinge on what you say to police (I did it; I didn?t mean to?), what constitutes reasonableness (i.e. reasonable behavior), how training can be a double edged sword, and how flight is perceived as equaling guilt.

An Appellate Judge also noted the following:

Defendant's own witnesses testified that once the Colt .38 was cocked, even the slightest movement over a distance as short as .012 inch would cause the gun to fire. The owner's manual for this gun warns that cocking the gun is extremely dangerous since it can easily be accidentally discharged. Defendant's experts also testified that they had witnessed or investigated numerous incidents where an accidental application of a very light touch discharged this gun. One of the witnesses even testified that this risk is so serious that numerous law enforcement agencies, including the New York City Police Department and the Secret Service, do not allow officers to fire in this fashion. The evidence before the jury showed that defendant was aware of the substantial and unjustifiable risk in cocking his gun and consciously disregarded that risk.

Maglioto was pleading, ?Oops. The gun did it.?

Here?s a synopsis showing what this moron did and why the gun wasn?t a real factor in the incident.

Here?s the Appelant Decision on appeal (seeking to reduce sentencing) for a more in-depth discussion.
As an aside, with all of his seminars and expert credentials, Ayoob has to my knowledge never presented any other example of this hair trigger nonsense.

As I?ve said before, my concern is having to explain a bunch of crap about your gun in both a criminal and civil law context. If it?s factory spec it?s easier to explain.

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

You forgot to tell OP you?re in TN, where constitutional carry is the norm, and a place that puts its law-abiding citizens first.

Well that's why I mentioned of all the things I can carry, I still carry the same Gen 3 Glock in a stock format with no mechanical mods that I carried in CA. I don't think a responsibly modified gun is a bad choice, it's just not my choice. I am serious about letting my lawyer answer any questions as well, I have nothing to say to law enforcement if that terrible day ever comes, I pray it does not. It's a lot easier to talk yourself into trouble than talk your way out.

[Roering]

If you used deadly force in an appropriate and reasonable manner, the details of the trigger won't matter.

If you used deadly force in an inappropriate and unreasonable manner, the details of the trigger won't matter.

[Justintoxicated]

Hmm I switched my HK from DA/SA to a Light LEM.

Both are factory triggers though (I think?)

I should switch it back to DA/SA?

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Hmm I switched my HK from DA/SA to a Light LEM.

Both are factory triggers though (I think?)

I should switch it back to DA/SA?

I'm not a fan of the LEM mode, but I'm with the guys that feel it won't matter, if it's a good shoot it's a good shoot. The gentleman below stated it very well...

Originally Posted by Roering

If you used deadly force in an appropriate and reasonable manner, the details of the trigger won't matter.

If you used deadly force in an inappropriate and unreasonable manner, the details of the trigger won't matter.

Except for the ugly take-up on a DA/SA gun I think they are truly a great choice and safe for any mode of carry in the decocked condition. So that would personally be my choice.

[BespokeGuns]

only mods to my carry guns are better sights, grips, and one has a light. All these upgrades make the pistols more accurate and therefore less likely to injure an innocent bystander in a shooting scenario. trigger job is really not a great idea for carry pistols in my opinion. Save that for a range or competition pistol.

[Gryff]

"Improving the trigger mechanics was done to allow me greater accuracy and control with the gun to minimize the risk to bystanders from errant shots."

Make sure you have a firearms-competent self-defense lawyer in your phone's address book.