CCWing in a Police Station?

[db556762]

I would like to hear people's thoughts on carrying inside a police station in this particular scenario. I'm asking here first before going to my IA or the chief of the PD in question and asking their thoughts or policy. I don't want to rock the boat and force a new policy to be made where one didn't exist before.

Background: I have access to the inside of local police station (in the Bay Area) where I have regular monthly meetings with an emergency services group I'm a board member of. We, the board, have credentialed access to the secured parking area and inside the station. Meetings are always at night time and the PD is mostly empty when we are there. We never interact with any police officers as we go to and from our meeting room. We go in as a group and leave as a group.

What do people think about carrying in that scenario? I understand concealed means concealed, but I'd suspect if we interacted with any police their senses might be tuned well to see telltale signs of carrying.

Our IA did not list police station as restricted areas. Only schools, courthouses, commercial airports, bars and federal buildings. I don't see any law, yet, on restrictions at a police station.

1. Carry as usual without notifying IA/Chief?
   
2. Ask the IA their thoughts on doing this?
   
3. Ask the PD Chief if he is ok with it?

The other part of this equation is that even though I can do it, doesn't mean I should do it. It may be legal to carry, but it may not be smart to do it due risks of encountering an officer and things not going well. Besides not carrying at all, leaving in the car while inside seems to be the best option from my view without letting IA/Chief knowing that a CCWer has inside access and then having them set an official policy due to this.

Thank you

[9Cal_OC]

That’s a tough one.

IMO, if you ask, it’s going to be a “No”.

If LEOs see you there, given you have access and are in the interior of the building, would they likely assume you’re a random stranger and BOLO?

[db556762]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

That’s a tough one.

IMO, if you ask, it’s going to be a “No”.

If LEOs see you there, given you have access and are in the interior of the building, would they likely assume you’re a random stranger and BOLO?

Yep, with the assumption that I'm already inside the secured area with visible ID, they may just conclude I'm not anything unusual to be concerned of since there are many LEOs with with inside access and firearms all the time and sometimes in plain-clothes ccwing themselves. But it is all still assumptions. Asking for a definitive opens Pandora's box.

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by db556762

It may be legal to carry, but it may not be smart to do it due risks of encountering an officer and things not going well...

Like how?

I carry everywhere that it's legal to do so. And I don't ask permission to not break the law. Just my 2 cents.

[db556762]

Originally Posted by ACfixer

Like how?

I carry everywhere that it's legal to do so. And I don't ask permission to not break the law. Just my 2 cents.

That's the info I'm trying to get. If a LEO chimes in here, that would be helpful. If LEO thinks only LEOs can carry inside the restricted area, then if seen by LEO it could lead up to a confrontation/arrest. Similar to how recording LEOs in public, even though 1A protected, some LEOs enforced non-existing law and arrested the person recording.

So in this case, legal 2A carrying, though protected, LEOs who are not used to CCWers around (there are so few of us in the Bay Area), may escalate the encounter.

This is all speculation, hence starting the thread to see if anyone with knowledge/authority can chime in with known facts/policies.

[Dvrjon]

Talking to your IA won't work, as I suspect they will defer to the local PD interest as a common courtesy. They won't be put into the position of having the PD call the IA and wanting to know why they authorized carry into their PD.

Two viable options:

As a general courtesy, you could approach the CoP, acknowledge it's his station house and see if he has concerns. Do this without the firearm on your person.

or,

You're already inside the controlled area in the parking lot. The odds of needing to defend yourself drop significantly. Follow the law and secure the gun in a locked container out of site and go to your meeting.

If those don't work, you could try moving to N/E Tennessee and carry wherever you want to.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

You're already inside the controlled area in the parking lot. The odds of needing to defend yourself drop significantly. Follow the law and secure the gun in a locked container out of site and go to your meeting.

This is sound advice.

If things go south, I doubt the PD may defer to you for assistance.

[mk2dave]

I sounds like you and might be in similar situations. I'm on the board with a local volunteer group with the local dept., and have talked to the liaisons about CCW while in the application process of the CCW.

To my understanding, it is 100% legal to carry at the Station. Doing so doesn't violate any PC's' dictated by the state, and is not against any guidelines laid out by my IA.

Is it SMART? In my view, no. And the reason is obvious for me.

I think you answered your own questions here (emphasis mine): "If LEO thinks only LEOs can carry inside the restricted area, then if seen by LEO it could lead up to a confrontation/arrest. Similar to how recording LEOs in public, even though 1A protected, some LEOs enforced non-existing law and arrested the person recording."

It is also against the By-Laws of the volunteer group, even with a CCW. You may want to check if that applies to your group or not.

Of course, you are with a different group with a different IA dealing with a different department, so I can't advise you on what to do.

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by db556762

If LEO thinks only LEOs can carry inside the restricted area, then if seen by LEO it could lead up to a confrontation/arrest

Arrest for what exactly? And you're going to base your decision based on one cop's feelings on the internet from a different agency? If you think this is a realistic scenario, then just leave the gun locked in the car.

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

If those don't work, you could try moving to N/E Tennessee and carry wherever you want to.

Hahaha well it's an option I chose, but it's not really a state issue.

I just see it is if it's legal, then either do it, and do it correctly and well concealed... or don't. Your choice, but no reason to ask permission to not break the law. It's possible another person at the meeting is carrying and if you go asking and it screws it up for them.

[p7m8jg]

You're in a "police" station.
You're carrying a gun.
Everyone there is aware that bad guys want to kill them. Haven't you watched Terminator??????

What about this doesn't scream "be one of the good guys, tell them right away!"

[CSACANNONEER]

Does YOUR IA have a written policy against it?

Is there a local law against doing so?

Are you in any area where prisoners EVER go? I haven't looked into state laws (and have no idea where you are so, I can't look at your local laws) or local laws but, I'm assuming that your LTC wouldn't be valid in those areas.

[Djantlive]

If you remove the pistol and stow it in your car, just be sure it’s done out of sight. If someone sees you doing it, you might be misunderstood…

If you wear it, no one will challenge you unless you are printing or if there is an activity that would make you have to excuse yourself in order not to print. In either case, I doubt you will be confronted.

Personally, I think it’s 50/50. I would just keep carrying to avoid the hassle.

[db556762]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Does YOUR IA have a written policy against it?

Is there a local law against doing so?

Are you in any area where prisoners EVER go? I haven't looked into state laws (and have no idea where you are so, I can't look at your local laws) or local laws but, I'm assuming that your LTC wouldn't be valid in those areas.

No IA written policy around this.
No local law that I'm aware of.
Never around prisoners. General office space areas. We meet in the CoP's private conf room.

I'm taking all the comments in. No decision, yet, what I will do. It won't be until Feb that I'm there again.

[freedomweek]

I carry everywhere it is legal to do so.

[Usual_Suspect]

My only thought would be if you are around any trustees. I would not carry in a PD, leave it secure in the car, but I doubt there is anything they can do in the way of an arrest if you choose to. I would ask as a courtesy the Watch Commander, or whomever your liaison is for the room schedule and usage.

[jben]

YMMV...When I had the interview with my IA he asked me where I wasn't allowed to carry. I gave him the standard list and also suggested that he may not appreciate if I carried in his office. I did not say I couldn't. He sort of laughed and responded that his office was attached to a court house so I would be stopped at the security check point. He then added that there was no prohibition at all to carrying in the main (stand alone) sheriff's office.

[Ned Ryerson]

My local police station and sheriff’s office have “no weapons” signs posted. I respect those signs and leave both my gun and my folding knife locked up in the console vault in my truck. For what it’s worth, I ignore similar signs at other types of locations, and am always willing to leave and spend my money elsewhere if I were ever to be asked to do so.

[Timthetwin]

I would not recommend doing this. You are in the PDs house and it’s a secured area. Is the little time your in the PD worth causing trouble if they don’t like you carrying?

[CAGLS]

Originally Posted by Djantlive

If you remove the pistol and stow it in your car, just be sure it’s done out of sight. If someone sees you doing it, you might be misunderstood…

If you wear it, no one will challenge you unless you are printing or if there is an activity that would make you have to excuse yourself in order not to print. In either case, I doubt you will be confronted.

Personally, I think it’s 50/50. I would just keep carrying to avoid the hassle.

Then it may be wise to secure your weapon in a locked container before entering the police station property.

[Charlie50]

probability of need near zero, stow it, avoid missunderstanding that could end with a bang.

[K001]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

[SharedShots]

OP, Your inquiry will create policy if the policy doesn't yet exist.

I'm a bit surprised that the use terms and conditions don't speak to the concern, but it might in that it refers to other policies without being specific so before asking in some official way, research as much as you can. The policy could very well be a general one regarding personnel activities within the building or the visitor policy which they almost certainly have. Their POI (Public Information Officer) will have the visitor policy resource available and asking for it doesn't really raise any flags since your reasoning can be that you just want to make sure all your Ts are crossed and so on.

I'm in the school that thinks you either carry everywhere you are authorized, or you don't carry. Once you make exceptions then you're assigning risk to certain activates and when asked, few people who do that can explain why they do. For some reason they think they can judge risk when many incidents happen in places and at times when it seems very unlikely anything would happen.

Bottom line is that once you've done your DD in researching visitor and facility use policies you are unlikely to experience the wrath of anyone. Its important not to invent policy. If someone thinks it's important enough to say something to you then it's important enough for a policy to exist and not leave it to individual feelings.

One thing, many people who carry aren't carrying as concealed as they think they are. The people they ask to check are often so used to them carrying that they aren't very objective. The place you are using is staffed by people who aren't looking at you as would a friend or family member, suspicion is part of it so that swipe of the hand, your stance, where you stand that all seem innocuous to you stick out to them.

The saying concealed is concealed is just something people say like buy once cry once. It's cute, doesn't mean much really. Concealed is really only hidden from casual view because anyone trained (criminals are trained BTW) to observe such things can pick out someone "CCWing" quite easily. I know, someone will chime into to say they carry concealed and walked by the Walmart greeter, the security guy at Jiffy Lube and some cop and no one said anything. Sorry, wishful thinking.

You know, sometimes when people ask about something out of this stuff called abundance of caution (meaning be afraid to do anything) the person being asked thinks something like "Oh ****, they had to go there and now someone has to write a policy and that someone is going to be me".



.

[BillSmith]

Your inquiry will create policy if the policy doesn't yet exist.

As a business owner, coach, sports official and poohbah on any number of boards, councils, committees and such, I wholeheartedly agree to the above as far-reaching advice to anyone dealing with bureaucracy.

[AtomicOrange]

Is there a public entrance to the facility? If so, is it posted with "No Weapons Allowed" or such? If so, they probably do not want outsiders carrying within, and I wouldn't. If not posted, carry on unless illegal to do so. I have attended some meetings at PD facilities and as far as I remember they are clearly posted (at the public entrance where I enter). That is about the only location where I honor such a request without the force of law. There might be others, but can't think of any off the cuff.

[Tfi123]

I'd say this is asking for trouble...

LEO's are restricted from carrying any weapons while processing inmates. other stations will have other policies on where they're allowed such as trustee quarters etc...

[db556762]

Originally Posted by AtomicOrange

Is there a public entrance to the facility? If so, is it posted with "No Weapons Allowed" or such? If so, they probably do not want outsiders carrying within, and I wouldn't. If not posted, carry on unless illegal to do so. I have attended some meetings at PD facilities and as far as I remember they are clearly posted (at the public entrance where I enter). That is about the only location where I honor such a request without the force of law. There might be others, but can't think of any off the cuff.

I enter not through the public entrance. I enter through the LEO entrance via key fob. I'll look next time to see if there are signs on the LEO entrance, but I highly doubt it. I'll also look at the public entrance next time to see if signage is posted.

[db556762]

Originally Posted by Tfi123

I'd say this is asking for trouble...

LEO's are restricted from carrying any weapons while processing inmates. other stations will have other policies on where they're allowed such as trustee quarters etc...

No inmates/arrestees are in this facility.

[GlockN'Roll]

I have had this conversation when conducting business at various Sheriff stations.

The universal answer has been leave in the car to avoid any possible "repercussions" that might result if it is discovered while you are inside the station.

Several have offered stories of people who did this and the negative outcomes that resulted.


Common sense (and every officer asked) says absolutely not,

and then asks why you would even think about doing this?

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by db556762

I enter not through the public entrance. I enter through the LEO entrance via key fob. I'll look next time to see if there are signs on the LEO entrance, but I highly doubt it. I'll also look at the public entrance next time to see if signage is posted.

So you’re still considering carrying inside…

[Kurgan]

This sounds like a stupid idea.

Do you think you'll need your CCW inside the police station?

[Fizz]

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ectionNum=171b.

The above applies. You'll need to dig through all the referenced statutes.

It's pretty likely that carry there is prohibited by non-officers.

Generally the public has unlimited public access to the BUILDING of a police station. That you're there for what may be a private room or event within that building statute doesn't exempt from.

It's pretty clear that a police station is a state/local building where such employees gather for their regular duties, and is also public.

The parking lot being special access I don't think is material.

My thought is, just don't.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Fizz

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ectionNum=171b.

The above applies. You'll need to dig through all the referenced statutes.

It's pretty likely that carry there is prohibited by non-officers.

Generally the public has unlimited public access to the BUILDING of a police station. That you're there for what may be a private room or event within that building statute doesn't exempt from.

It's pretty clear that a police station is a state/local building where such employees gather for their regular duties, and is also public.

The parking lot being special access I don't think is material.

My thought is, just don't.

There’s an exception for CCW.

[HKBigboy]

ok policy, and rules aside, just think about it.

some bad guy tries to kill you in a police station, you pull your gun. high probability you’ll get shot by police. in a police station, gun out they will shot and ask questions later there stories all the time of ccw holders or home owners being shot by police. think about it most police officers pull there weapon twice a year to qualify.

in that place i would look to run and hide. and know it’s not 10 minutes for the cop to arrive, it’s probably a few seconds. there a higher probability of you flashing your gun taking a piss or dump then a person trying to kill people at a police station.

[SharedShots]

Originally Posted by HKBigboy

ok policy, and rules aside, just think about it.

some bad guy tries to kill you in a police station, you pull your gun. high probability you’ll get shot by police. in a police station, gun out they will shot and ask questions later there stories all the time of ccw holders or home owners being shot by police. think about it most police officers pull there weapon twice a year to qualify.

in that place i would look to run and hide. and know it’s not 10 minutes for the cop to arrive, it’s probably a few seconds. there a higher probability of you flashing your gun taking a piss or dump then a person trying to kill people at a police station.

If we are putting policy and rules aside:

What is your probability based on? Why is being in a police station the big deal about being shot if you had to draw as opposed to being anywhere else police or others with guns might also be? Can you somehow predict who will be around and see you with a gun as the threat while not seeing the threat?

Ordinary people holding guns in response to bad guys have been shot and killed before - out in public so there is that. How many have been shot and killed inside police stations for the same reason?

On exactly what do you base the probability? I'll say it, it's made up, pulled out of thin air. First of all, not every sworn LE knows every other one at a station, especially the larger ones. There are some who work the dark watch who rarely get see by anyone else and in civilian clothing can't be discerned from anyone else.

Your analysis simply doesn't work. Even off-duty LE have been shot in public by other uniformed LE because they were mistaken as the bad guy.

Instead of being concerned with who is going to shoot whom, pay attention to where you are, how you are vulnerable and if you are the goober standing there out in the open holding a gun then you just put your life into the hands of everyone else who might think you are the bad guy or; just someone to shoot because some CCW holder beamed in and saw you, held up their shash and commanded : freeze-CCW .

When it comes to how often LE might draw their handgun, given some of the threads here, even to the point of using a toilet while CCWing and putting on clothes or what to do at the end of the day, unload or keep loaded your gun, there isn't much room to talk about LE on anything.

The bottom line is not to make up policies, not to over-analyze who might do what, what you, me or anyone else thinks, there are the laws, regulations, policies and procedures derived from them that dictate what you must or should do when considering carrying a concealed gun inside a police station where you are part of a visiting group with official permission to use those facilities. No one has to guess, and if it's not documented then asking will cause it to be documented.



.

[bootcamp]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

This sounds like a stupid idea.

Do you think you'll need your CCW inside the police station?

This.....100% Don't be an idiot.

[ACfixer]

Is it legal?

Yes!

Should I do it?

No!

Why not?

Because a cop might shoot you!

[ZirconJohn]

Concealed means concealed - YOU need to KNOW where you are legally able to carry, and where you are NOT able to carry legal CCW

You don't ask when you walk into a building or area ... YOU need to already KNOW!

As you already know ---► CCW = Conceal Carry Weapon

Asking if it's okay, or acknowledging if someone asks you if you are carrying, only negates the word conceal

I have family, and friends that know I have a conceal carry license. And it's happened ... I've been asked "are you carrying a gun right now?" - I say "No". And then I drop the subject - asked and answered. CCW is a conceal carry license and a license to lie when asked

[mossy]

Man common sense is not so common these days.........No........ don't carry inside a police station if you are not a LEO.

[RMCummins]

Originally Posted by mossy

Man common sense is not so common these days.........No........ don't carry inside a police station if you are not a LEO.

winner winner chicken dinner

[benjamin101677]

Email the police chief of the department you’re inside during this meeting and ask him if you’re okay to carry it or should it go in the trunk when at department. It’s his officers that most likely would have issues with you if they see it so his say is what is mattered.

Always email when asking questions of someone like this as opposed to calling so you have a paper trail. Should he say yes it’s okay but later something happens this stops that chief from hanging you out to dry.