Conceal Carry in personal vehicle

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

I received a reply from my instructor stating that the ccw permit is only valid when you have your firearm on your person. When it is not on your person then the ca pc that gives exceptions would not be valid. Now I’m even more confused.

Ask your instructor if he is just making stuff up, or if he can throw down his citations.

I'd really like to see the citation authority to believe the Penal Code is "Not Valid."

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

I received a reply from my instructor stating that the ccw permit is only valid when you have your firearm on your person. When it is not on your person then the ca pc that gives exceptions would not be valid. Now I’m even more confused.

To avoid confusion, can you post his reply so maybe we can interpret his exact wording.

For future reference, I’d suggest a new instructor.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

I received a reply from my instructor stating that the ccw permit is only valid when you have your firearm on your person. When it is not on your person then the ca pc that gives exceptions would not be valid. Now I’m even more confused.

Your instructor seems to be the one a little confused.

It is not even required by law that a CCW licensee have evidence of that license on his/her person, though it seems pretty unwise to leave it at home.

But, here's the Penal Code:

25655.

Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150).

That's 'concealed in public'.

And, here's 'loaded in public':

26010.

Section 25850 does not apply to the carrying of any handgun by any person as authorized pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150) of Division 5.

A person would be issued "a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person". ( PC 26150(a) ) 'Capable of being concealed on the person' describes the kind of weapon and does not mean 'only when concealed upon the person'.

So long as the handgun is listed on the CCW, there are no ordinary restrictions on where it may be carried in a vehicle or on your person.

There are, of course, destinations where no firearms are permitted, and other places such as school property where carry has been made illegal (have to drop to unloaded and locked case, PC 626.9(c)(2) )

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

I received a reply from my instructor stating that the ccw permit is only valid when you have your firearm on your person. When it is not on your person then the ca pc that gives exceptions would not be valid. Now I’m even more confused.

Ask him to cite the law or possibly, the IA policy. Ask him to explain how many women legally carry in their purse. Then, simply find a new instructor who knows the laws, policies and realities of legally carrying a firearm in public instead of one who makes up laws while trying to be an authority on the subject.

[Oneaudiopro]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

To avoid confusion, can you post his reply so maybe we can interpret his exact wording.

For future reference, I’d suggest a new instructor.

If the gun is not on your person then you are not using your permit. At that point you are not exempt from anything. See this penalty code:

16850.
As used in this part, “locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

If the gun is not on your person then you are not using your permit. At that point you are not exempt from anything. See this penalty code:

16850.
As used in this part, “locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

That would only pertain to safe transport of a firearm w/o a CCW.

[Oneaudiopro]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

That would only pertain to safe transport of a firearm w/o a CCW.

That was the reply I received

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

That was the reply I received

Tell your instructor that CA PEN 16850 is a definition, not a restriction. It’s used to clarify restrictions later established within the Code.

Also tell him it’s in the “California PENAL Code”, not “penalty” code.

See: CA PEN 16580

[BC9696]

[MudCamper]

Yeah I recently took my CCW class, and the instructor spent a lot of time talking about how you could NEVER put your CCW gun in the glove box or center console. He even went on to say you can't put your fully enclosed locked case in the center console.

I was pretty sure he was wrong, but didn't want to be the guy arguing with the instructor.

This is a case, as usual, of people conflating and confusing two different PC sections and their separate exemptions, and then applying the exemptions to one as restrictions on the other. This is the same type of confusion that I see in my Firearms in Forests and Parks thread.

Thanks Rick and Librarian, for citing all the sources.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

That was the reply I received

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

Tell your instructor that CA PEN 16850 is a definition, not a restriction. It’s used to clarify restrictions later established within the Code.

Also tell him it’s in the “California PENAL Code”, not “penalty” code.

See: CA PEN 16580

At this point it might just be better to ask your instructor to refund your class fee. He didn't teach you anything.

Signing off for now.

[G-forceJunkie]

And out him so the rest of us don't spend any money with him for disinformation

[MudCamper]

This kind of misinformation drives me insane, and I usually create some kind of printout / cheat sheet to show people. But I have never done this for this topic (CCW) as it has never applied to me at all. But hopefully very soon, it will, as post-Bruen I have applied with my local agency and am almost finished with the process. Fingers crossed.

So here is my cheat sheet on laws relevant to California CCW license holders:

http://tinyurl.com/caccwlaws

If you, Librarian and/or RickD427, see any glaring mistakes on my part, please do let me know.

Thanks!

[WithinReason]

Thanks!

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

This kind of misinformation drives me insane, and I usually create some kind of printout / cheat sheet to show people. But I have never done this for this topic (CCW) as it has never applied to me at all. But hopefully very soon, it will, as post-Bruen I have applied with my local agency and am almost finished with the process. Fingers crossed.

So here is my cheat sheet on laws relevant to California CCW license holders:

http://tinyurl.com/caccwlaws

If you, Librarian and/or RickD427, see any glaring mistakes on my part, please do let me know.

Thanks!

A valiant effort, but you also have to consider that in short measure, the Legislature will give us gifts which will dramatically impact this area and will have to be sorted out.

You also have to look at obscure prohibitions/authorizations on carry with a license. Quick example: CA PEN 171b, c, d, and e.

171b(b)(3): public building exception allowing carry.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171c: Carry at state Capitol and specific offices prohibited.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171d: Licensed carry at Governor's mansion authorized.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171e, Loaded firearm defined for Sections 171c and 171d.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

[MudCamper]

Thanks Dvrjon! OK so it appears I'm just getting started. I guess I will have to go to two pages.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Thanks Dvrjon! OK so it appears I'm just getting started. I guess I will have to go to two pages.

You may want to look into a wholesale purchase of electrons….

Best.

This should probably be pulled out of this thread into a sticky of its own.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

This should probably be pulled out of this thread into a sticky of its own.

Well there are already a couple of good stickies that probably cover all this in much more detail:

LTC Penal Code and FAQ

Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list

I'm focused here on a small, simple, reference printout.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

A valiant effort, but you also have to consider that in short measure, the Legislature will give us gifts which will dramatically impact this area and will have to be sorted out.

You also have to look at obscure prohibitions/authorizations on carry with a license. Quick example: CA PEN 171b, c, d, and e.

171b(b)(3): public building exception allowing carry.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171c: Carry at state Capitol and specific offices prohibited.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171d: Licensed carry at Governor's mansion authorized.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

171e, Loaded firearm defined for Sections 171c and 171d.https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f....7&lawCode=PEN

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Well there are already a couple of good stickies that probably cover all this in much more detail:

LTC Penal Code and FAQ

Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list

I'm focused here on a small, simple, reference printout.

Very good posts above. I haven't stayed fully on top of California law on this. I fled the state when I retired in 2013.

In the interests of keeping things simple, you can effectively "condense" a lot of the above by recognizing that California law has two different definitions of when a firearm is loaded. There is the general definition, and a special definition that only applies to certain places and circumstances. Under the special definition, a firearm is "loaded" if the firearm and ammunition are in the possession of the same person.

I'd also note that the "Special Definition" also applies when the weapon is carried with the intent to commit a felony (refer to Penal Code section 25800. At first glance, this would only seem to apply to "common" criminals, but I have also seen it applied where the defendant was involved in an DUI related Injury T/C and had a firearm and ammunition, otherwise lawfully carried, in their vehicle.

[MudCamper]

Yes there are some obscure definitions of loaded, but for purposes of PC 25850, People v Clark is controlling case law.

In "People v. Clark" (1996), the California Court of Appeal clarified that in order to be "loaded" a firearm must have ammunition "placed into a position from which it can be fired". It even went so far as to point out as an example of what is not loaded to include shells attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier.

And of course, our CCW permits exempt us from PC 25850.

[MudCamper]

OK I think I am close to a working final* version. It lists the most imported codes first, and lists them all. It includes one FUD example/debunk (the subject of this thread). It's a single page. And it includes a link to CalGuns Concealed Carry Discussions.

http://tinyurl.com/caccwlaws

Refresh to update browser caches if you've downloaded a previous version.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

OK I think I am close to a working final* version. It lists the most imported codes first, and lists them all. It includes one FUD example/debunk (the subject of this thread). It's a single page. And it includes a link to CalGuns Concealed Carry Discussions.

http://tinyurl.com/caccwlaws

Refresh to update browser caches if you've downloaded a previous version.

It's 626.9 (c) (2) that tells us even CCW cannot carry on school property -

626.9.


(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (4) of subdivision (e), shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:

(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.

That is, for school property, reduced to transporting.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Librarian

It's 626.9 (c) (2) that tells us even CCW cannot carry on school property - That is, for school property, reduced to transporting.

Thanks for taking a look.

Yes, 626.9 (c) (2) is the exemption for locked containers in school zones including school property.

626.9 (c) (5) is the exemption for CCW license holders within 1000 feet of a school (but not on school property).

(5) When the person holds a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150) of Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6, who is carrying that firearm in an area that is not in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, but within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school.

And yes I have 626.10 listed as including guns and I need to correct (remove) that. Thanks!

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Thanks for taking a look.

Yes, 626.9 (c) (2) is the exemption for locked containers in school zones including school property.

626.9 (c) (5) is the exemption for CCW license holders within 1000 feet of a school (but not on school property).



And yes I have 626.10 listed as including guns and I need to correct (remove) that. Thanks!

Remember that the parts of 626 that have been quoted only pertain to K-12 schools. Colleges and Universities are different.

Also, don't forget to add CA Election Code 18544 to your list. It prohibits carrying at polling places! Also, note that many Counties in CA have done away with polling places and replaced them with Vote Centers. There's the spirit of the law and the letter of the law to consider. It'll probably take case law to get a definitive answer about carrying at "vote centers".

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Remember that the parts of 626 that have been quoted only pertain to K-12 schools. Colleges and Universities are different.

Yes but the law changed a few years back to remove the CCW exemptions from colleges and universities, so for all intents they are the effectively the same to a CCW holder. Guns must be unloaded and in a locked container in a vehicle.

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Also, don't forget to add CA Election Code 18544 to your list. It prohibits carrying at polling places! Also, note that many Counties in CA have done away with polling places and replaced them with Vote Centers. There's the spirit of the law and the letter of the law to consider. It'll probably take case law to get a definitive answer about carrying at "vote centers".

Thanks! I will add that.

[BC9696]

[9Cal_OC]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Yes but the law changed a few years back to remove the CCW exemptions from colleges and universities, so for all intents they are the effectively the same to a CCW holder. Guns must be unloaded and in a locked container in a vehicle.



Thanks! I will add that.

For colleges and universities, you cannot possess firearms on campuses, even with a CCW, regardless whether it’s locked and in a secured container (unlike K-12, which allows for that):

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...9.&lawCode=PEN

h) Notwithstanding Section 25605, any person who brings or possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

Very few exemptions to having a firearm on campus (even in locked container).

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC

For colleges and universities, you cannot possess firearms on campuses, even with a CCW, regardless whether it’s locked and in a secured container (unlike K-12, which allows for that):

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...9.&lawCode=PEN



Very few exemptions to having a firearm on campus (even in locked container).

OK. But that citation only mentions loaded guns. Is there no exemption for unloaded / locked containers in parking lots? I will update my doc if I do not find anything...

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

OK. But that citation only mentions loaded guns. Is there no exemption for unloaded / locked containers in parking lots? I will update my doc if I do not find anything...

Subdivision (i) following h deals with unloaded in the same manner.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

Subdivision (i) following h deals with unloaded in the same manner.

OK.

Thanks guys good call.

Amazing though that there is no legal way to drive in a parking lot. It's like US Post Offices. Crazy.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by MudCamper

Yes there are some obscure definitions of loaded, but for purposes of PC 25850, People v Clark is controlling case law.

In "People v. Clark" (1996), the California Court of Appeal clarified that in order to be "loaded" a firearm must have ammunition "placed into a position from which it can be fired". It even went so far as to point out as an example of what is not loaded to include shells attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier.

And of course, our CCW permits exempt us from PC 25850.

All true, but in the case of schools/universities, that has been codified in PEN 626.9 subdivision (j), for which there is no exemption.

(j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

]

[CSACANNONEER]

Remember, when it comes to ammunition on school grounds see PC 30310.

[freefire]

I know some things better now... Such a library of knowledge here����

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Remember, when it comes to ammunition on school grounds see PC 30310.

Thanks I forgot about that.

[OlderThanDirt]

An unloaded firearm in a console vault inside a locked console seems like a responsible way to store a firearm if away from the vehicle.

[WithinReason]

Originally Posted by OlderThanDirt

An unloaded firearm in a console vault inside a locked console seems like a responsible way to store a firearm if away from the vehicle.

I agree wholeheartedly! ^^^^

There is an issue with Penal Code 25140:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.

and

(d) (1) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(A) “Locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

(B) “Locked toolbox or utility box” means a fully enclosed container that is permanently affixed to the bed of a pickup truck or vehicle that does not contain a trunk, and is locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or other similar locking device.

I own a Ford F-150 with a center console. The Console Vault is an authorized Ford product. I have contacted the DOJ twice and asked if I place a Console Vault in my center console, if that would be legal. They refuse to answer the question and refer me to the penal code and tell me to use my best judgement.

I wish there was a way to get a definitive answer. Otherwise, the decision to arrest is left to the discretion of the officer if I get pulled over. Even if I get an answer from my local law enforcement agency, that would not cover me if I travel to a different county.

[MudCamper]

WithinReason, the locked container cannot BE the utility or glove box. But there is no code that prohibits you from placing your locked container WITHIN the utility or glove box.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by WithinReason

I agree wholeheartedly! ^^^^

There is an issue with Penal Code 25140:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle?s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle?s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.

and

(d) (1) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(A) ?Locked container? means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term ?locked container? does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

(B) ?Locked toolbox or utility box? means a fully enclosed container that is permanently affixed to the bed of a pickup truck or vehicle that does not contain a trunk, and is locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or other similar locking device.

I own a Ford F-150 with a center console. The Console Vault is an authorized Ford product. I have contacted the DOJ twice and asked if I place a Console Vault in my center console, if that would be legal. They refuse to answer the question and refer me to the penal code and tell me to use my best judgement.

I wish there was a way to get a definitive answer. Otherwise, the decision to arrest is left to the discretion of the officer if I get pulled over. Even if I get an answer from my local law enforcement agency, that would not cover me if I travel to a different county.

/////////

25140. (a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle?s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle?s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.

Your Console Vault is a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle's interior and not in plain view.

You haven't used the console as a locked container, you have used it to keep the locked container out of plain view.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by WithinReason

I own a Ford F-150 with a center console. The Console Vault is an authorized Ford product. I have contacted the DOJ twice and asked if I place a Console Vault in my center console, if that would be legal. They refuse to answer the question and refer me to the penal code and tell me to use my best judgement.

Dvrjon answered pretty definitively, I think, but I wanted to address this 'Call/write DOJ' thing.

Phone/email answerers there are not lawyers. By dint of training budgets being strangled (I think) and the entire supervisory level there reflecting (in self defense, some of them) the anti-gun policies of the elected leadership, those telephone answerers do not know the law, are not permitted to give legal opinions, and CA-DOJ is not obligated to offer opinions to anyone but a CA District Attorney.

Nothing coming out of DOJ is useful unless written and published over the signature of at least an assistant Attorney General.

[WithinReason]

FYI: You all see it the same way I do. I just wish I could get something in writing from the DOJ to give me piece of mind.