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  #41  
Old 09-01-2019, 7:01 AM
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But do you have a hydraulic gauge to measure shoulder bump?
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  #42  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:49 PM
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Oh man I thought we already burried this horse lol.
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  #43  
Old 09-01-2019, 4:14 PM
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Neck tension is a reloading term exclusive to case prep, expressed as a difference in diameter. Pounds are for measuring friction in bullet seating. Apples vs Oranges.
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  #44  
Old 09-02-2019, 4:00 AM
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Everyone seems to agree with one exception.
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  #45  
Old 09-02-2019, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Neck tension is a reloading term exclusive to case prep, expressed as a difference in diameter. Pounds are for measuring friction in bullet seating. Apples vs Oranges.
If it was a difference in diameter it would be referred to as being an interference fit, outside of reloading I have installed sleeves. It was OK to install a sleeve with a crush fit.

And now we are back to tension gages, I have tension gages; none of my tension gages measure tension, all of my tension gages measure in pounds, one also measures deviation in thousandths.

F. Guffey
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  #46  
Old 09-02-2019, 8:48 AM
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Smh, guffey you either missed the boat entirely or you are troll level 100.
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  #47  
Old 09-02-2019, 9:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
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If it was a difference in diameter it would be referred to as being an interference fit
It is a difference in diameter and it is an interference fit. But we call it neck tension because that’s what we call it. It works for us.
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  #48  
Old 09-03-2019, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
It is a difference in diameter and it is an interference fit. But we call it neck tension because that’s what we call it. It works for us.
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I understand. the big problem with what works for you; you have no way to place a value neck tension you can not convert neck tensions to bullet hold.

Even when a manufacturer designs a bullet seating press there was no way to calibrated the press to tensions. the hydraulic gage used on the bullet seating press is calibrated in pounds.

It works for you? 5 reloading forums have no way to convert tensions to pounds or pounds to tensions. And then there is the big rush to convert seating effort with load cells. Again, load cells do not measure neck tension, I have gages that measure deviation; again no tension, my deviations gages measure deviation in thousandths, to accomplish that it requires pounds, again I have operated gages that measured deviation in thousands of pounds.

F. Guffey
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  #49  
Old 09-03-2019, 5:43 AM
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And then there was the question about 'bump'. All of my cam over presses 'bump'. My cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again on the way down.

I know; "it works for you", what you fail to understand is; it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that had full case body support. When sizing the concept the reloader does not have the capacity to understand is the meaning of a die with "full case body support", again, it is impossible to move the shoulder back when suing a die that has full case body support.

I dug out an old press last month, it was a 'TEXAN', The Texas was not a cam over press, it is a lever lock press. I understand the term 'leaver lock' is beyond a reloaders comprehension.

As I have said before I am the fan of 'all the bullet hold I can get'. I have no problem getting 45 pounds of bullet hold; I have no ideal how much neck tension that is, the scary thing? Reloaders believe they know.

I wanted to increase the bullet hold because I was told by 5 reloading for forums full of reloaders it was possible to render your rifle scrap with too much bullet hold. (I do not know how many tensions that would be).

I increased the bullet hold on 20 7MM57 rounds to the point my Hornady Cam-over bullet puller would not pull the bullets. Again, I was using my old TEXAS press, when trying to pull bullets from the cases I hammered on the handle of the press to increase leverage. Nothing worked, the bullets could not be pulled, and then the rifle and the ammo with all of the bullet hold I could get went to the firing range.

No harm came to the rifle or shooter, accuracy was outstanding. fired 3 rounds, one hole; ready for the hunting season to start.

Tension does not work for me because it is too awkward to try and make it make sense.

Tools necessary to increase bullet hold to the point bullet hold exceeds 90 pounds have to me made, they are not available from your favorite die maker.

F. Guffey
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  #50  
Old 09-03-2019, 7:50 AM
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Neck tension is not awkward at all if you think about it in the proper context- its place in the reloading process, the step where we size the neck to a certain diameter. We assume that a .002” difference in diameter of a typically prepped case neck will result in say 50 PSI or so of seating pressure, or whatever is sufficient to hold a bullet in the case. I like .003” which, in my process, results in 70-80 PSI of seating pressure. When someone says they set the neck tension at .002” everyone knows what they mean. Even stupid people. It is a natural use of language. Kinda like “Look here young man” where the speaker isn’t talking about looking, but the listener knows he is talking about paying attention.

And re bumping the shoulder back, it’s the same thing.
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  #51  
Old 09-03-2019, 8:20 AM
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Ive bumped heads with a few other members in the past, as I can be difficult to get along with at times. But Im sorry Im going to have to hit the block button.
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  #52  
Old 09-03-2019, 2:28 PM
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Wat there is one? That would be the most important thing I learned in this thread, by far.
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  #53  
Old 09-03-2019, 3:07 PM
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There used to be one. I cant figure out how to do it on my phone though.
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  #54  
Old 09-03-2019, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
I am the only fan of bullet hold, I can measure bullet hold in pounds, I can not measure bullet hold in tensions.

One more time: I have tension gages; none of my tension gages measure in tensions; it is simple enough, my tension gages are marked off in pounds. The part that just locks the reloader up is the fact there is no conversion for tensions to pounds.

One more time; there is a hydraulic bullet seating press with a gage. the gage is marked off in pounds. If there was such a thing as seating bullets and measuring in tensions the gage would be marked off in tensions. If there was such a thing as a conversion chart for tensions to pounds at least one reloader out of all the Internet reloaders on the Internet could come up with a conversion and or gage that measures tensions.

At 14 I started working in the oil field, my first job was working the inside tongs. Above my head was a gage that was called a tension gage, The tension gage was marked off in pounds, thousands of pounds. If we wanted to know how much pipe/weight we had in the hole we multiplied the reading on the gage X the number of cables.

Again, I want all the bullet hold I can get, For me a good number for bottle neck cases is 45 pounds, I have exceeded that to the point the Hodgdon collet bullet puller was not able to pull the bullets.

Please do not take this an endorsement of the Hodgdon collet cam operated bullet puller, to me the Hodgdon Bullet puller is down next to not having a bullet puller at all.

F. Guffey
Yet not one person said a thing about X number of tensions you moron.
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  #55  
Old 09-04-2019, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Neck tension is not awkward at all if you think about it in the proper context- its place in the reloading process, the step where we size the neck to a certain diameter. We assume that a .002” difference in diameter of a typically prepped case neck will result in say 50 PSI or so of seating pressure, or whatever is sufficient to hold a bullet in the case. I like .003” which, in my process, results in 70-80 PSI of seating pressure. When someone says they set the neck tension at .002” everyone knows what they mean. Even stupid people. It is a natural use of language. Kinda like “Look here young man” where the speaker isn’t talking about looking, but the listener knows he is talking about paying attention.
Complex or compound: It seems reloaders are not capable of thinking of more than one thought at a time. Again, I have said the case increases in its ability to resist sizing. This happens when the case is work hardened by firing and sizing. Even thought you put some effort into your response adding the cases ability to resist sizing as it work hardens makes it difficult to carry one of your projection all they way through with one thought.

I understand you know what you think you are saying; like the old saying about neck sizing. It is believed it is possible to neck size 4 times before starting over by full length sizing. 'and I always ask' How is that possible? The case has been fired 5 times, it seems a reloader should not have trouble keeping up with that because the 5 firings had to work harden the case.

F. Guffey
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  #56  
Old 09-04-2019, 7:32 AM
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Reloaders have the ability to control spring back with dies and/or annealing.
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  #57  
Old 09-19-2019, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Reloaders have the ability to control spring back with dies and/or annealing.
Spring back, snap back, jump back etc.: All of those are reasons why a reloader can not determine how much effort is required to seat a bullet and remove the bullet. Life is much similar when the reloaders has a way of determining bullet hold. There is nothing more ridicules than 'tension', the reloaders can not measure tension, if it was possible to build a gage that measured tension in tensions manufacturers would have made one.

I have a tension gage, it is marked off in pounds with no way to convert tensions to pounds.

Reloaders have the ability? My cases have the ability to resist sizing, some cases have more resistance to sizing than other cases. My dies and presses have threads, to increase my presses ability to overcome resistance I lower the die or shim the head of the case by shimming the case head off the deck of the shell holder. The shim also increases the presses ability to overcoming the cases ability to resist sizing.

Crush fit, interference fit. when determining how much crush and or interference I have used gages that measure in pounds, I have used gages that went up to 10,000 pounds on one application and 100,000 pounds in another. And still; no tension gage; unless it is marked off in pounds.

F. Guffey
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  #58  
Old 09-19-2019, 3:28 PM
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Guffey how do you measure pressure? Or temperature?
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  #59  
Old 09-19-2019, 3:32 PM
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Most reloaders are anal, probably use an anal thermometer?
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  #60  
Old 09-19-2019, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
Spring back, snap back, jump back etc.: All of those are reasons why a reloader can not determine how much effort is required to seat a bullet and remove the bullet. Life is much similar when the reloaders has a way of determining bullet hold. There is nothing more ridicules than 'tension', the reloaders can not measure tension, if it was possible to build a gage that measured tension in tensions manufacturers would have made one.

I have a tension gage, it is marked off in pounds with no way to convert tensions to pounds.

Reloaders have the ability? My cases have the ability to resist sizing, some cases have more resistance to sizing than other cases. My dies and presses have threads, to increase my presses ability to overcome resistance I lower the die or shim the head of the case by shimming the case head off the deck of the shell holder. The shim also increases the presses ability to overcoming the cases ability to resist sizing.

Crush fit, interference fit. when determining how much crush and or interference I have used gages that measure in pounds, I have used gages that went up to 10,000 pounds on one application and 100,000 pounds in another. And still; no tension gage; unless it is marked off in pounds.

F. Guffey
We’re going around in circles. I explained to you why we use the word “tension” in terms of an assumption to which you replied that brass hardness variance makes the assumption incorrect, to which I replied that we can control brass hardness through annealing and here you go again with the tension gauge pound stuff.
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  #61  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:23 PM
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Just do the following:
1) size/expand the case
2) measure the case neck ID (NOT right at the mouth, but down a little).
3) Measure the ACTUAL bullet diameter.
IF OD(bullet) - ID(case) is not between 0.001-0.002", your expander is not doing its job and you need to contact the factory.
Also, as some have said, your "light" crimp may actually be a heavy crimp that bulges the case out and loosens the bullet tension (sorry, but whether you measure it or not, it is still tension or, to be more correct I suppose, shear tension).
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  #62  
Old 09-20-2019, 6:34 AM
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Quote:
Also, as some have said, your "light" crimp may actually be a heavy crimp that bulges the case out and loosens the bullet tension (sorry, but whether you measure it or not, it is still tension or, to be more correct I suppose, shear tension).
Before the Internet: A manufacturer of reloading equipment said crimping a bottle neck case can be a bad habit. This happened before the Internet was invented. That was before tension was invented, even then there was no way to measure tension.

they said crimping can reduce 'bullet hold', back then bullet hold was measured in pounds, a few of us had tension gages that were marked off in pounds with no way to convert pounds to tensions. We also had deviation gages, deviation gages were marked off in thousandths, Not a problem because it took pounds to cause the gage to deviate.

Back to 'bad habit': They described the problem is caused by the neck griping the bullet and the bullet moving down while crimping. They claimed the neck bulges/expands below the crimp; So they claimed crimping reduces bullet hold.

And then? too much crimp? Reloaders are unaware the seating die does not have case body support. Meaning too much crimp is an illusion, when the bullet is seated and the neck grips the bullet the neck and bullet lowers, without case body support the case had no choice but to bulge below the case body/shoulder juncture. When this happens the Internet reloader has trouble closing the bolt not realizing he is trying to size the case when closing the bolt.

After that Dillon started separate dies for crimping and bullet seating. They informed me I had to use two different dies in the 550, this would not be a problem for an Internet reloaders. For me it was a big problem because I used a lockout die. I had to have a 5 position shell plate. And I had all the dies I was ever going to buy. it was about that time they said it was OK for me to use my dies in their press.

I have no fewer than 12 Herter press, if crimping is necessary I could crimp on a separate press.

I was working on some 7mm57 rounds, bullet hold for most was 45 pounds, and then? I read on the internet too much crimp causes high pressure and then I thought about that old article about too much crimp causes reduced bullet hold; so?

I worked out a deal that allowed me to increase bullet hold to over 100 pounds; how many tensions is that? Anyhow there is no shortage of bullet pullers around here; the Hornady cam lock puller would not pull the bullets. If I was using the Hornady bullet puller they would have it more than I would because they would be repairing it.

After increasing bullet hold on the 7MM57 ammo I sent the crew to the firing range, they said the 7mm57 was stacking bullets, it was doing that before I increases bullet hold.

And how does that bullet get out of the case with all of that bullet hold? If there was a tension gage they would make one.

F. Guffey
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  #63  
Old 09-20-2019, 6:43 AM
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QUIT FEEDING THE TROLLS!!!!!
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  #64  
Old 09-20-2019, 7:09 AM
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Quote:
I worked out a deal that allowed me to increase bullet hold to over 100 pounds; how many tensions is that?
Quote:
QUIT FEEDING THE TROLLS!!!!!
fraz, a reloader is not required to know anything about reloading when it comes to tension, tensioners do not have tension gages and they have no way to convert tensions to pounds.

Bullet hold in pounds? I said I increased the bullet hold on a 7mm57 round from 45 pounds to 100 pounds, you do not know how that could be done and you have no way to measure that amount of bullet hold.

F. Guffey
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  #65  
Old 09-20-2019, 7:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
That was before tension was invented, even then there was no way to measure tension.
Now there's a statement...
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  #66  
Old 09-20-2019, 2:59 PM
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Guffey how do you measure pressure or temperature? Please answer.
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  #67  
Old 09-20-2019, 3:38 PM
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interesting,,someone should design a seating tool to measure the tension caused by the interference between the projectile and brass.
always gone by the size difference between the two
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  #68  
Old 09-20-2019, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbala View Post
interesting,,someone should design a seating tool to measure the tension caused by the interference between the projectile and brass.
always gone by the size difference between the two
Several companies sell such a product that measure the bullet seating force.
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  #69  
Old 09-21-2019, 5:36 AM
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Someone should offer a product that measures neck expanding force.
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Old 09-21-2019, 6:56 AM
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Quote:
interesting,,someone should design a seating tool to measure the tension caused by the interference between the projectile and brass.
always gone by the size difference between the two
One thing for sure; it will be necessary to invent a gage that measures tension. Problem, I have a tension gage, to show you how unfair life is my tension gage is marked off in pounds, and then? Someone designed a hydraulic seating die, the gage is a pressure gage and measures pressure in pounds.

I have a strain gage, it measures in thousandths but is converted to pounds, I have decided reloaders have nothing but a keyboard.

F. Guffey

"measure tension caused by interference etc. etc."

I started in the oil field, first job; working on the floor operating tongs. Above my head was a gage that measured the amount of weight one strand of cable was supporting. The gage was marked off in pounds.

I have measured interference, None of my measuring interference fit was measured in tensions. I operated one press that was used to press two parts together, crush fit? interference fit? The gage on the press measured 100,000 pounds +. It was not a good ideal to get into a hurry with that press.
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Old 09-21-2019, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Someone should offer a product that measures neck expanding force.
I have neck expanding tools, I have torque wrenches, none of my torque wrenches are marked off in tensions.

I can measure bullet hold in pounds, if a reloader could invent tensions? Seems strange they all insist it exist we all could measure neck expansion in tensions.

Reminds me of Don Meredith when he was discussing 'IF': It went something like if ifs and buts were gift and nuts we all would have a Merry Christmas.

F. Guffey
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  #72  
Old 09-21-2019, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
Spring back, snap back, jump back etc.: All of those are reasons why a reloader can not determine how much effort is required to seat a bullet and remove the bullet.
F. Guffey
As much as he may be annoying, I have to agree with him that simple "interference fit" of 2-3 thou on the neck doesn't tell us anything.

And now back to our regularly scheduled comedy program...Or Democratic Party debate.
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Old 09-21-2019, 9:44 AM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DdTTqDGPEeg
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Last edited by J-cat; 09-21-2019 at 9:59 AM..
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  #74  
Old 09-21-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MongooseV8 View Post
Guffey how do you measure pressure or temperature? Please answer.
A poundometer and degreeometer (not to be confused with angleometer used for angular measurements) of course.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
As much as he may be annoying, I have to agree with him that simple "interference fit" of 2-3 thou on the neck doesn't tell us anything.

And now back to our regularly scheduled comedy program...Or Democratic Party debate.
It does of you know the modulus of elasticity.
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