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LEO selling of Off-Roster PPT?
While performing a PPT, actually a trade of an off roster handgun for another off roster handgun, we were told that they could no longer transfer a handgun purchased via LEO exemption to a non-LEO buyer. Not an issue for us since neither of the parties involved were LEOs. Interestingly, it was noted that this restriction only applied to firearms purchased by the LEO via roster exemption. If that LEO brought the firearm into California during a move or purchased it via PPT, it was fine. Not sure how the FFL doing the transfer could verify that.
I have done some searching, and I am aware of some LEOs getting busted for basically using their status to buy and subsequently sell those off roster guns at significant profit. I can see CA DOJ and the ATF cracking down on what amounts to non-FFL dealing (kind of) or straw purchases of off roster handguns by LEOs to sell. But, I have not seen any laws or regulations change in this regard, so legally I don't think there is any new restriction on an occasional and infrequent sale from LEO to non-LEO via PPT of an off roster handgun. I think more likely that it is a store policy, though the clerk performing our PPT was not very forthcoming in whether or not he was simply directed by the owner as to not be a party to any potential issues that could come from an LEO engaging in a large amount of buying and selling for profit. Have any of you heard of stores enacting a similar policy? EDIT: This took place at Down Range in Chico. Just in case anybody was planning on doing a LEO to non-LEO PPT there. Last edited by scottyb; 06-04-2017 at 8:39 AM.. Reason: Add dealer name for info |
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California Code, Penal Code - PEN § 32000 (a) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year. (b) This section shall not apply to any of the following: (1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of a prototype handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 32010 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that handgun is prohibited by Sections 31900 to 32110, inclusive, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm to the roster of handguns that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 32015. (2) The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section. (3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a sheriff's official, a marshal's office, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of a handgun. (5) The sale, purchase, or delivery of a handgun, if the sale, purchase, or delivery of the handgun is made pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 10334 of the Public Contract Code. (6) Subject to the limitations set forth in subdivision (c), the sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, any of the following entities or sworn members of these entities who have satisfactorily completed the firearms portion of a training course prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training pursuant to Section 832: (A) The Department of Parks and Recreation. (B) The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control. (C) The Division of Investigation of the Department of Consumer Affairs. (D) The Department of Motor Vehicles. (E) The Fraud Division of the Department of Insurance. (F) The State Department of State Hospitals. (G) The Department of Fish and Wildlife. (H) The State Department of Developmental Services. (I) The Department of Forestry and Fire Protection. (J) A county probation department. (K) The Los Angeles World Airports, as defined in Section 830.15. (L) A K-12 public school district for use by a school police officer, as described in Section 830.32. (M) A municipal water district for use by a park ranger, as described in Section 830.34. (N) A county for use by a welfare fraud investigator or inspector, as described in Section 830.35. (O) A county for use by the coroner or the deputy coroner, as described in Section 830.35. (P) The Supreme Court and the courts of appeal for use by marshals of the Supreme Court and bailiffs of the courts of appeal, and coordinators of security for the judicial branch, as described in Section 830.36. (Q) A fire department or fire protection agency of a county, city, city and county, district, or the state for use by either of the following: (i) A member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37. (ii) A member other than a member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37. (R) The University of California Police Department, or the California State University Police Departments, as described in Section 830.2. (S) A California Community College police department, as described in Section 830.32. (c)(1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section. so, if you used 32000(b)(6), to acquire the off-roster handgun, it is illegal for a CA-dealer to process the PPT. if you didn't use that exemption, (whether you acquired it in a PPT or are a member of a 32000(b)(4) agency) then I don't see how 32000(c)(1) would apply.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by ke6guj; 06-04-2017 at 11:07 AM.. |
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^^^ What Jack said ^^^
For off-Roster handguns, if a LEO inherited one, or received one by intrafamilial transfer, or bought one PPT, or moved to CA with it, still free to sell it if s/he wants to do that. And remember, the restriction applies only to the newly-designated LEO, and only to off-Roster handguns purchased in CA from 2017 forward using the LE exemption.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 06-04-2017 at 11:13 AM.. |
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I moved here from NY (I thought they were bad) a couple of years ago and I am just really diving into the transfer legalities of firearms. I have been content with my firearms that I moved here with, until recently, when the bug bit me to start expanding my collection again. This PPT was the first since I got here and I thought I have heard of LEOs selling off guns that were off the roster and that they didn't want to keep. That is why it struck me as weird. I guess I have a lot more to learn about the maze of CA gun laws in with respect to PPTs. Last edited by scottyb; 06-04-2017 at 11:19 AM.. |
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are they subject to prosecution if they have no-idea if the handgun being PPT'ed is a 32000(b)(6)-acquired firearm? what happens if they do ask, and the seller lies? are they still liable?
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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legally, that LEO should be able to buy PPT/consignment just like any other non--exempt person and be able to sell that in a later PPT/consignment sale. just like a 32000(b)(4) LEO today can go in and buy an off-roster handgun and then later decide to sell that to a non-LEO in a PPT/consignment, without violating 32000(c)(1). is CADOJ noting in AFS somehow that "Glock 40Gen4 serial number XXX123" was acquired via 32000(b)(6) and then looking at that when it is later PPT'ed, who knows?
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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Cleaned up a bit and made a sticky.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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No that is not accurate. Only those LEO's that were added to the list and listed in the law quoted in post #2 can not sell off roster firearms they purchased using their exempt status.
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Are there 2 lists? Or just the one mentioned above? So for example a Sheriff or city Police officer would still be eligible, however not a DMV officer. Correct? |
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Everyone listed after subsection B 5 were added to be able to purchase off roster in 2016 I believe. Their ability to sell off roster obtained with their exempt status was removed. It does not effect anyone who was able to purchase off roster prior to the new exemptions being added in. So nothing changed city police county sheriff's deputies, CHP and a few other's can still sell off roster. However some agencies have adopted policy's prohibiting those sales, since a few have used that to flip a profit.
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I just got off the phone with a recognized, store-front, firearms dealer here in CA. I inquired about purchasing a semi-auto pistol (specific brand and model) that is not on the roster and was immediately asked whether I was LEO. When I advised no, I was told that model is not on the roster and cannot, therefore, be sold to non-LEO. That person, who sounded quite knowledgeable, then added that, if such a firearm is used, a non-LEO could purchase it. I've read the above posts and am unclear whether this dealer's info is correct. Please consider and advise. If OK, how would the DROS be processed by the dealer - since that firearm is not on the roster? Thanks.
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ELR Researcher, Benefactor Member NRA and Life Member CRPA www.elr-resources.com Not a commercial business. ELR - anything shorter is point blank. Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA), Webmaster and Marketing Assistant www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - competition starts at 2000 yards! |
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In any case, how would the store clear an off-roster pistol thru DROS as part of a sale to a non-LEO? Thanks.
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ELR Researcher, Benefactor Member NRA and Life Member CRPA www.elr-resources.com Not a commercial business. ELR - anything shorter is point blank. Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA), Webmaster and Marketing Assistant www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - competition starts at 2000 yards! |
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If it is consignment it is processed as a private party transfer making it legal
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Just got the following email from On Target in So OC. It says transfers will be done in compliance with CA laws, but I read that as they won’t do a ppt of off roster unless you are exempt.
————————————— Firearm Transfer Policy Amendment All firearms transferred in to On Target must be eligible for transfer to the customer as per CA firearm laws. For example, all handguns must be on the California Roster of Certified Handguns by model number/name/description. All long guns must be CA-compliant. See CA DOJ website for compliancy laws. If you have an off-roster handgun that is being gifted to you by a parent/grandparent/child/grandchild, they must include a copy of their state-issued photo ID and a gifting letter. It is your responsibility as the customer to make sure all firearms are eligible for transfer. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE. If there are any firearms that are sent to On Target that must be shipped back because they are not eligible for transfer, you will be charged $100 processing fee. No member discounts. No debates. No matter the circumstances. Transfer paperwork must be filled out before the gun arrives at On Target. All firearm transfer paperwork must include an invoice/receipt showing the exact model of the firearm you ordered to be shipped to On Target. Without the invoice/receipt that shows the proper information, we will not accept the transfer paperwork. If the gun arrives and you have not filled out the paperwork, the extra $25 processing fee will apply. This applies even if you tried to fill out paperwork and were denied because of the lack of invoice/receipt. |
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It is my reading that the entirety of the letter is in relation to firearms "shipped" to them. Which is a major headache for FFLs when buyers purchase from out of state sources without full understanding the complexity of such transfers. And causing problems for the FFL. They even mention the off roster "gift exemption" from immediate family. Which if local, not shipped could be done with an OPLAW. Quote:
Is how the letter opens. It just didn't include EVERY POSSIBLE contingency. That would fit it. Example; PPT from a LEO of an off roster handgun, to a non exempt individual WOULD FIT what they said verbatim. If in doubt, call and ask before you online blast. |
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Policy makes sense to me. And they’re up front about. Just my 2¢. Although I’d never deal with them based on personal reasons...
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That is for dealer transfers - and their policy is correct. It says nothing about PPT. "Transferred in" "sent to On Target" "shipped to On Target" That all has to do with dealer transfers, and I see nothing about their policy that raises any concern. You're reading about PPT is incorrect, IMO. Last edited by SkyHawk; 10-11-2020 at 5:24 PM.. |
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It become problems when that Pasadena PD act as dealer, selling a lot off roaster pistol for profit. What happen to him anyway? |
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He was probably substituting the word 'used' for 'being purchased second hand from a private party in a PPT or via consignment'. An unfortunate way to abbreviate the details for sure - but sometimes they get in a hurry, and sometimes a customers eyes will glaze over if you try and get into the weeds with the details - so 'used' is what ends up being said. Last edited by SkyHawk; 10-11-2020 at 5:23 PM.. |
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Since the statute puts the onus on the FFL, they are very cautious about these transactions. Additionally, since a number of LEOs have been found to be trafficking in off-roster firearms here, here, and here, many law enforcement agencies frown upon the process (but that's their employees' problem).
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"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.” "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool." "The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first." |
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PC27535(a) is the 1 handgun DROS every 30-day rule, which starting July 1, 2021, will become 1 semiautomatic centerfire rifle or 1 handgun DROS every 30 days.
Under PC27535(b)(5), the following person is exempt from the 1-per-30-days restriction Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, and who is authorized to, and does carry a firearm during the course and scope of employment as a peace officer.So you can look through Chapter 4.5 (which is sections 830 to 832.19) to see who is a peace officer under Californian law. What people are calling "Tier 1" is usually found in PC830.1 and PC830.2. What people are calling "Tier 2" are found in other statutes following 830.1 and 830.2. For example, 830.3(d) says Horse Racing Board investigators are peace officers. As another example, probation officers are under PC830.5. PC830.8 explicitly says federal law enforcement are not peace officers under Californian law, but do have some powers. |
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LE status of the seller has nothing to do with 1-in-30.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Little thread bump here. yesterday I received in the mail a letter from the DOJ as a notice regarding the purchase and resale of non-roster handguns. It's a very plain notice that explains 32000 and who can sell these non -roster guns.
Last year I PPT'd a firearm from a member from group one. The group that is allowed to sell non-rostered guns. I have also PPT's other firearms in the past from other group one members. The one sticky part of the notice is this....."These sworn members (group one) may purchase non roster handguns for personal use and may generally sell or transfer the non roster handgun to any firearm eligible purchaser at a licensed firearm dealer" That reads poorly to me. Who is a firearm eligible purchaser at a licensed fire dealer? Strange notice and I am curious why it was sent. Is this the legal requirement that Newson put in to notify LEO's about the law? I do work for a group one agency as non sworn. I'll try and get a photo uploaded of it.... Last edited by boattail; 06-18-2021 at 7:25 AM.. Reason: add photos |
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Effective 1/1/2021:
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__________________
"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.” "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool." "The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first." Last edited by Dvrjon; 06-18-2021 at 9:19 AM.. |
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I hate legal-eaze. Last edited by boattail; 06-18-2021 at 9:35 AM.. |
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However, if you weren't eligible, the FFL wouldn't have processed....
__________________
"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.” "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool." "The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first." |
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