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  #1  
Old 12-15-2018, 4:11 PM
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Default Crimp without cannelure?

The Mini-14 manual says that if you reload, use only bullets with cannelure, and crimp into the cannelure. I have Redding dies, which can roll crimp. The Redding instructions say not to roll crimp if there is no cannelure. I have Speer bullets without cannelure. What now? Should I get a Lee factory crimp die?
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2018, 4:17 PM
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If it were me I would do both, change to a bullet with a crimp ring in it and get the Lee factory crimp die.
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2018, 4:17 PM
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As Ruger says, use only bullets with cannelure. Seems clear to me.
You can roll crimp into the jacket, but it won't be as accurate with a damaged jacket.
For all roll crimping jobs, I use Redding Profile Crimp Dies, if available.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2018, 4:31 PM
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First off never try to crimp a bullet without a cannelure. It won't do any good to try and there is the possibility that the shoulder will be set back.

I've been loading for a Mini 14 since 1979. Using bullets with and without a cannelure. Absolutely have had zero issues not crimping bullets.

Proper case neck tension is the key and making sure that the bullet is seated into the case only on the straight sides. If you seat a bullet down where the ogive enters the neck then proper case neck tension will be lost.

That's my two cents worth.

irh
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Old 12-15-2018, 4:53 PM
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Don't get the Lee crimp. It puts 4 marks to crimp.
I use the RCBS taper crimp.
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2018, 5:33 PM
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Well look right here from your original post!

The Redding instructions say not to roll crimp if there is no cannelure.

That advice is golden and from a company that makes reloading equipment.

No clue who put the advice in the Ruger manual.

irh
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2018, 5:50 PM
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As a user of semi's for highpower competition,I have never felt the need to crimp.Most competitors find it unnecessary!
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Last edited by highpower790; 12-15-2018 at 5:59 PM..
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2018, 6:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhorse1 View Post
First off never try to crimp a bullet without a cannelure. It won't do any good to try and there is the possibility that the shoulder will be set back.

I've been loading for a Mini 14 since 1979. Using bullets with and without a cannelure. Absolutely have had zero issues not crimping bullets.

Proper case neck tension is the key and making sure that the bullet is seated into the case only on the straight sides. If you seat a bullet down where the ogive enters the neck then proper case neck tension will be lost.

That's my two cents worth.

irh


I never crimp. Most match bullets donít have a cannelure anyways. Iíve never had an issue.
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  #9  
Old 12-15-2018, 7:06 PM
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No, it’s stupid.
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  #10  
Old 12-15-2018, 7:09 PM
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Note that the Lee fcd does not roll crimp, so the Redding comment doesnít apply. The questions are whether neck tension suffices, whether the Lee crimp helps, or whether Speer is selling bullets that are unsafe in the Mini-14.
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Old 12-15-2018, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike Arumba View Post
Note that the Lee fcd does not roll crimp, so the Redding comment doesnít apply. The questions are whether neck tension suffices, whether the Lee crimp helps, or whether Speer is selling bullets that are unsafe in the Mini-14.
Neck tension,in my opinion suffices!
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Old 12-15-2018, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highpower790 View Post
Neck tension,in my opinion suffices!
I agree. But for some reason, my 300 Win Mag bullets slide after I seat the bullet. So I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I just kiss it, and leave it alone.

The Lee Factory Crimp Dies are awesome. And affordable.
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2018, 11:55 PM
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I used to crimp when I started reloading. I donít do it anymore. Itís an additional step that I deemed unnecessary.
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2018, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highpower790 View Post
Neck tension,in my opinion suffices!
I read that a lot across the internet world of reloading; and I wonder how you measure 'tension'. I am convinced reloaders are conditioned to repeat cute little sayings they have read from the Internet.

I do not have that problem because I measure the ability of the neck to hold the bullet in pounds; so you have tension and I have bullet hold, you can not measure tension and I measure bullet hold in pounds with a tension gage because my tension gage is marked off in pounds because tensions can not be measured in tensions.

Again, there is no way to convert tensions to pounds, Wouldn't that be something if a reloader could measure tensions and convert it to pounds, or pounds to tensions.

F. Guffey
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2018, 7:52 AM
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In the world of metallic cartridge reloading, neck tension is defined by the difference in diameter between bullet OD and the neck ID. Neck tension is measured in increments of .001”
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  #16  
Old 12-16-2018, 8:07 AM
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I LFC my 6.8 SPC all the time for my AR 6.8 with or without a cannelure.
Never had a bullet push back or set out farther from the AR action.
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2018, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
In the world of metallic cartridge reloading, neck tension is defined by the difference in diameter between bullet OD and the neck ID. Neck tension is measured in increments of .001Ē
You can get away with that nonsense but around a machine shop they will tell you that is interference fit and then there is crush fit; I have cut stuff that required tons of pressure to assemble. The big dial above the press, at times, read 10,000 pounds per inch, what I liked to see is the big gage increases in pressure and then slowly drop like it was bleeding off. What did that mean? It meant the fit was not loose, and if the pressure did not drop it meant I had to cut the piece off and or out and start over.

No one ever walked over and informed me I had too much tension, or not enough. The tension was is the drama, like a TV show. "DID I READ MY MICROMETERS CORRECTLY and it takes two sets, one inside and the other outside.

F. Guffey
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Old 12-16-2018, 8:27 AM
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Reloading is not machining. Get that through your head.
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Old 12-16-2018, 8:33 AM
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I know (in case we have machinist), there was the large oven/furnaces and or the rose bud to heat and or liquid nitrogen.

F, Guffey
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Old 12-16-2018, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Reloading is not for everyone.
Reloading is not for everyone.

F. Guffey
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2018, 3:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
In the world of metallic cartridge reloading, neck tension is defined by the difference in diameter between bullet OD and the neck ID. Neck tension is measured in increments of .001”
How does one measure the BS of the GuffMiester?Im sure its in lbs.
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  #22  
Old 12-16-2018, 3:30 PM
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Load twenty with no crimp, load ten at a time into the mag and shoot nine. Pull the tenth and measure it, did it walk or not?
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  #23  
Old 12-16-2018, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by highpower790 View Post
How does one measure the BS of the GuffMiester?Im sure its in lbs.
You don't need to measure it as he has tooted his own horn and filled a page with irrelevant information.

I also think that we have all been insulted due to our lack of knowledge.

This was a crimp or no crimp thread until we were schooled by an expert.

Anyway another Calgunner moved to the ignore list.

irh
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Old 12-16-2018, 7:15 PM
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Anyway another Calgunner moved to the ignore list.
If you do that, you'll be missing out on some very high quality entertainment.

Tim
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:00 AM
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If you do that, you'll be missing out on some very high quality entertainment.

Tim
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:10 PM
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I'm sure Guffey had a better response, but since he's on ignore I didn't have get to see it.

Neck tension should be enough if things are right. Measure a few for OAL and chamber them, not gently, but a full bolt drop feeding from the mag to mimic firing. Re-measure and if they didn't shift you should be ok.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:12 PM
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If you do that, you'll be missing out on some very high quality entertainment.

Tim
'Till some twit quotes him and we're then forced to enjoy his greatness.
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Old 12-18-2018, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
...I wonder how you measure 'tension'.
I use a go/no go gage. It's expensive and complex.

It's called a "firearm."

If my loads do not change in OAL while loading, chambering, extracting, etc., then they pass. If they do change in OAL, they do not pass.

Others use seating effort, some measure with dynamometers.

Please do not tell us what you use. Your refusal to tell us how you measure headspace - if it can be measured - is part of the mystique which makes the Fguffey legend. More mystery can only make it better.
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Old 12-18-2018, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike Arumba View Post
I have Speer bullets without cannelure. What now? Should I get a Lee factory crimp die?

Nah, just get duck tape. It fixes everything.


Iíve shot reloads in my mini without crimping. And Iím fairly certain Iím still alive. Donít worry about it. Next box oí bullets get some with canelures. Variety is the spice of life.


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Old 12-20-2018, 7:45 AM
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Quote:
I have Speer bullets without cannelure. What now? Should I get a Lee factory crimp die?
Long before reloading was rediscovered and reinvented on the Internet Lyman said crimping could be a bad ideal. They suggested there is something wrong with crimping while the bullet is moving down. They claimed the bullet moving down while being crimped can reduce bullet hold; BULLET HOLD! Yes, that was before neck tension was invented on the Internet. Again, I have tension gages, all of my tension gages measure tension in pounds and if there was something that measured tensions someone would have a scale that measured tensions. And? Interference fit and or crush fit can not be measured in tensions because there is no such thing as measuring tensions in increments.

I also have an ignore list; my list is different, I ignore those that are socially dysfunctional.

F. Guffey
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  #31  
Old 12-20-2018, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
I never crimp. Most match bullets donít have a cannelure anyways. Iíve never had an issue.
I do not expect anyone to understand this but if the bullet has a cannelure the reloaders looses the ability to seat the bullet to near, past or off the rifling. I have a small machine that applies a ring around the bullet for crimping. I do not use it but I have it JIC, as in 'just in case'.

I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullets to have that running start; I want my bullet past the beginning of the rifling before the bullets knows it is there. WHY? If I stick my bullet into the rifling and I eliminate the running start I have to reduce the powder charge.

F. Guffey
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  #32  
Old 12-20-2018, 8:21 AM
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I've been reloading for a fews years now and a couple years ago I did testing of crimp vs. non crimped bullets.

I now give all my 223 reloads (50g v-max bullets) a light crimp using LFC. Evens out neck tension and gives me more consist groups.

YMMV.
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  #33  
Old 01-12-2019, 6:25 AM
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Default Crimp without cannelure?

I have no issues skipping the FCD crimp die in my Lee 4-die set, it causes more damage and wear to the cases anyway for limited/no real benefit whether youíve got a cannelure or not.

But I am considering getting another brand taper or roll crimp to get a slight rebutting effect on the final loaded cases for smoother feeding... would have nothing to do with bullet retention in the neck tho.

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  #34  
Old 01-13-2019, 4:22 PM
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I'll just add one observation here. I have pulled bullets from milsurp rounds where the bullet had no cannelure and the bullet jacket was constricted by whatever means were used to produce the crimp ... probably something like what the Lee dies do with pressure applied radially rather than axially as with a roll crimp. So, yes, you CAN crimp a bullet without a cannelure but some ways are better than others.

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