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  #1  
Old 07-14-2018, 12:00 PM
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Default Do You Need Carry Insurance: John Lovell and Attorney Andrew Branca

Thought some of you might be interested in this. John Lovell has a YouTube channel (Warrior Poet Society) and is a former Army Ranger, I believe. Andrew Branca is an attorney with 25 years experience in self defense law. His book, "The Law of Self Defense" is pretty good and worth a read, albeit it's fairly dry content.

Note: There's good information in here in terms of what to look for...and not..in a self defense insurance program.


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Last edited by L84CABO; 07-14-2018 at 12:34 PM..
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2018, 2:15 PM
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Thank you for the video link, good information. I decided a year ago to get insurance and this makes me feel like it is a good decision.
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2018, 2:36 PM
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Depends if you have assets to protect.
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Old 07-14-2018, 3:40 PM
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The attorney, as knowledgeable as he is, shows some misunderstanding about how insurance works several times in the video, which is often the case with even the most accomplished attorneys but the points that really stand out were these:

1) He cites Lockton as an "insurance company" that no longer would insure the NRA's Carryguard program - they are not an insurance company.

They are an insurance brokerage that can elect to pull out of such a relationship at any time by no longer wanting to be the broker.

However the insurance company that wrote the original policies (Chubb) - which is a contract - must continue to honor those policies so long as the insured has not misrepresented themselves, didn't pay premium, and/or meets their requirements as an insured in that contract. They may decide to not renew a policy or place no new policies, but they can't simply cancel a policy because they feel like it and without a sufficient notification of cancellation or denying renewal.

2) Few insurance companies simply let you use any lawyer you choose and reimburse you for the same, especially for policies that address very particular types of activity or risk.

A few will allow use of your own lawyer after review and approval of that attorney's capability, and then only reimburse for the amount they would have paid their own specialized attorneys to handle such a case.

They DO have a lot riding on defense costs, so they aren't going to agree to just anyone. They want to be sure the attorney you would choose actually is prolific in the matters being addressed. Even then, if they allow you to use your own attorney, your attorney often must still work with the insurance company's attorneys.

3) While the conversation centered on defense costs for criminal-cases against you for use of your firearm in self-defense and carry, nearly all of the most common homeowners/general liability policies that include personal liability from ALL insurance companies will respond and cover for your defense in most all civil-lawsuit cases that involve a third-party suing you for legal use of your firearm in self-defense.

.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2018, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
Depends if you have assets to protect.
In this case, they are primarily talking about your defense costs if charged by DOJ/prosecutors for use of your firearm, or charged with things like aggravated assault, brandishing while putting your legal carry firearm into use even when you might have been using it for self-defense.

They aren't talking so much about a third-party civil lawsuit going after your assets because of use of your firearm in legal self-defense.

So criminal defense as opposed to civil. The video could have done a better job to distinguish between the two.
.
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Old 07-14-2018, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
Depends if you have assets to protect.
Watch the video. It is pay to play. If you dont have assets to liquidate you go to jail
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2018, 9:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
Depends if you have assets to protect.
Well yea. Or if you're just someone who is far to pretty for prison...like me.
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2018, 8:07 AM
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Thanks for the kind words! Folks who like that video might also enjoy our weekly "Law of Self Defense Show," free to watch live every Wednesday, 2PM Eastern time, or the recording for 24 hours after each show, here: http://www.lawofselfdefense.com/show

We also offer a ton of free (as well as higher-value paid) content at our Patreon page: http://www.lawofselfdefense.com/patreon

--Andrew
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
1) He cites Lockton as an "insurance company" that no longer would insure the NRA's Carryguard program - they are not an insurance company.
What substantive difference does that make to the end-user, who is the intended audience for this ~30-minute interview?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
2) Few insurance companies simply let you use any lawyer you choose and reimburse you for the same, especially for policies that address very particular types of activity or risk.
That's true, and appropriate, in the civil context, in which the insurance company assumes the liability. It is not appropriate in the criminal context, in which it is solely the Defendant who assumes the risk of going to jail. My primary concern for folks is the criminal context, so that's where I focus my attention. Most people I know, if given the choice, would rather lose money than go to prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
3) While the conversation centered on defense costs for criminal-cases against you for use of your firearm in self-defense and carry, nearly all of the most common homeowners/general liability policies that include personal liability from ALL insurance companies will respond and cover for your defense in most all civil-lawsuit cases that involve a third-party suing you for legal use of your firearm in self-defense.
Nearly all? Evidence to support this statement?

--Andrew
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:12 AM
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Watch the video. It is pay to play. If you dont have assets to liquidate you go to jail
More accurately, the more resources you can bring to the legal fight, the more likely you are to win. The fewer resources, the less likely.

--Andrew
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula View Post
So criminal defense as opposed to civil. The video could have done a better job to distinguish between the two.
.
Again, my primary concern for folks is the criminal context, so that's where I focus my attention. Most people I know, if given the choice, would rather lose money than go to prison.

--Andrew
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:18 AM
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Incidentally, any of you who might be in the greater Sacramento area, you might consider joining me for our Law of Self Defense LEVEL 1 and LEVEL 2 Classes taking place there this coming weekend, July 21-22. More info here: http://www.lawofselfdefense.com/sacramento
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2018, 8:33 AM
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If anyone wants to join CCW Safe, please use this link:

https://ccwsafe.com/ref/B12458690
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Old 07-16-2018, 5:41 PM
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Wow! Andrew Branca himself, in the house!

Great for Calguns

Honored.....but hope to never make your acquaintance!

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  #15  
Old 07-16-2018, 5:51 PM
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If you do not have CCW (i.e. you live in LA or SF), is there a quality home self-defense insurance policy that will cover criminal defense costs but costs less because presumably the insurer's risk is less?

EDIT: Yes, CCW Safe offers just that.
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  #16  
Old 07-17-2018, 2:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law of Self Defense View Post
What substantive difference does that make to the end-user, who is the intended audience for this ~30-minute interview?

A LOT!! Because it implies that the program is dead and buried, over, and that is not the case. Additionally, and more importantly, a broker ending their relationship to serve a policy does not end the terms of that policy, so coverage is still in force. A broker insures nobody, nor does ending their relationship end the contract with the insurance company.

So the substantive difference is that people are being misinformed that their coverage is suddenly be null-and-void which is not the case. The threat that the NRA will be unable to find a replacement is also not correct. (And part of the problem out of all of this has been how the NRA themselves had marketed the program without an insurance license, not that it had any coverage issues).


So that is relevant, and it's is important to be correct, to be factual, in a realm where so many are trying to twist our 2nd Amendment stance and support structure.

I'm 99% onboard and highly respect your opinion and comments in the video, but these differences do matter particularly in the course of how the Anti-2nd Amendment crowd sought to turn the issue into something unsavory or salacious.



That's true, and appropriate, in the civil context, in which the insurance company assumes the liability. It is not appropriate in the criminal context, in which it is solely the Defendant who assumes the risk of going to jail. My primary concern for folks is the criminal context, so that's where I focus my attention. Most people I know, if given the choice, would rather lose money than go to prison.

Nearly all? Evidence to support this statement?


Just a look at the majority of insurance policies, it's that simple. There is your evidence from thousands available for perusal. That is the norm, not the exception, so yes - nearly all, if not ALL - insurance policies that are available in this realm.

Talk to underwriters and their claims adjusters, yet you can find the language addressing this quite clearly in NEARLY ALL insurance policies as I stated.

Inevitably, while being helpful which is appreciated, you are still advertising and selling your wares in that video; and should use caution when telling people that their insurance company can use independent legal services without concern or that the insurance company would cover it, without issue or diminished reimbursement for your defense costs based on their own guidelines for that cost.


These exceptions and surety the insurance companies want in overseeing the defense is real and more often the norm, NEARLY ALL of the time, and you should do better to warn your audience of this before they would put the cart before the horse.


Tell them to read their policy; it's a contract. It's all there in black and white and I advise ANYONE to do that first before commencing with independent counsel, and/or without conferring with your insurance company first for any defense, criminal or civil.


--Andrew

But don't get me wrong Andrew, your legal advice is excellent and lots of good information from the video. I have lots of respect for you. I will be picking up your book for further read. I'm grateful for your generosity in sharing your advice. Even more awesome that you are (and have been) a member of Calguns.

It shows you give a damn, and not just a fly-by interest.


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  #17  
Old 07-17-2018, 3:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law of Self Defense View Post
Again, my primary concern for folks is the criminal context, so that's where I focus my attention. Most people I know, if given the choice, would rather lose money than go to prison.

--Andrew

Understood, but the fact that there are those mixing their comprehension of the two even after watching your posted video, or apt to do so, at least deserves a nod, for as of late, we have seen CCW holders attacked from BOTH sides with criminal charges AND wrongful-death lawsuits against them.

In that regard, there is no reason to "lose money" when such a personal liability policy will cover the defense for a civil lawsuit over such matters, where defense is outside the limit, and there is not even a single dollar of a deductible.

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Old 07-17-2018, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
Watch the video. It is pay to play. If you dont have assets to liquidate you go to jail
The insurance company is protecting their potential monetary involvement, they don't care if you go to jail as long as it doesn't cost them money. You'll need your own criminal defense attorney with your interests in mind to be fully covered.
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