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  #1  
Old 02-09-2024, 2:26 PM
cosmonaut cosmonaut is offline
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Default DROS Question

Hypothetical question:

What would happen if this hypothetical scenario happened:

Somebody is interested in buying a handgun that has a lot of variations that look similar and trusts their local shop to sell him/er the one that is on the roster, especially since said shop also carries the LE only variations. Purchase is made and FFL puts in the model and serial # and DROS processes fine and picks up after 10 days.

After a couple months, the same person needs to take the new handgun to an authorized armorer to fix an issue. The owner fills out the repair form with the model and serial# that is on the DROS form. The authorized armorer goes over the repair form and says "the serial number matches what's on your handgun, but the model number is wrong. In fact, the model you have is not on the roster". After the owner tells the story above, the armorer shrugs his shoulders and completes the repair and returns the handgun to the owner.

Question - what should the owner do at this point in the hypothetical scenario?
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2024, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
Question - what should the owner do at this point in the hypothetical scenario?
Shoot and enjoy the gun.
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2024, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by aca72 View Post
Shoot and enjoy the gun.


What he said.
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  #4  
Old 02-09-2024, 4:11 PM
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The owner should do absolutely nothing.
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  #5  
Old 02-09-2024, 6:10 PM
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^^^^ ALL OF THE ABOVE ^^^^
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2024, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
Hypothetical question:

What would happen if this hypothetical scenario happened:

Somebody is interested in buying a handgun that has a lot of variations that look similar and trusts their local shop to sell him/er the one that is on the roster, especially since said shop also carries the LE only variations. Purchase is made and FFL puts in the model and serial # and DROS processes fine and picks up after 10 days.

After a couple months, the same person needs to take the new handgun to an authorized armorer to fix an issue. The owner fills out the repair form with the model and serial# that is on the DROS form. The authorized armorer goes over the repair form and says "the serial number matches what's on your handgun, but the model number is wrong. In fact, the model you have is not on the roster". After the owner tells the story above, the armorer shrugs his shoulders and completes the repair and returns the handgun to the owner.

Question - what should the owner do at this point in the hypothetical scenario?
Hypothetically:

-The hypothetical armorer was hypothetically wrong, or,
-The hypothetical dealer hypothetically screwed up, or,
-The hypothetical sale was hypothetically reviewed and hypothetically approved by DOJ when they hypothetically approved the DROS and allowed the hypothetical sale to go through, hypothetically authorizing the hypothetical dealer to release the hypothetical gun to the hypothetical buyer.

Since everyone is hypothetically relying on the DOJ approving the sale, hypothetically, neither the hypothetical seller nor the hypothetical receiver of the hypothetical firearm hypothetically did anything wrong.

So, the hypothetical buyer should move along with his/her hypothetical life.

//////

In the non-hypothetical world, the law prohibits, "A person in this state who [] keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, [] an unsafe handgun". That means the compliance with the law lays with the seller. The seller relies upon the DOJ to approve the sale. DOJ approves the DROS and authorizes release of the firearm. (That could get sticky, but it is sticky for the dealer. There have been instances in which a DROS has been approved by DOJ and later rescinded as not authorized (C&R pistol - - new Colt National Match .45 ACP - - the DOJ approved the sale then pivoted to require the vendor to retrieve the pistols as not eligible for C&R consideration. This was not a one-off, but a number of pistols state-wide).

Under certain conditions, private citizens can purchase and possess off-roster firearms. Owning an off-roster firearm is not prohibited. Individuals who own off-roster firearms can transfer them temporarily to gunsmiths for work and have them returned without going through an FFL for transfer. However, owners should also be aware that, if they need to send the firearm back to an out-of-state manufacturer, the manufacturer may balk at returning the firearm directly to the owner.

A (somewhat) easy way to determine if a firearm is/is not on the roster is to simply search the roster for that particular firearm.

Then, knowing the status of the firearm, the owner can enjoy the firearm.
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  #7  
Old 02-09-2024, 7:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
In the non-hypothetical world, the law prohibits, "A person in this state who [] keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, [] an unsafe handgun". That means the compliance with the law lays with the seller. The seller relies upon the DOJ to approve the sale. DOJ approves the DROS and authorizes release of the firearm. (That could get sticky, but it is sticky for the dealer. There have been instances in which a DROS has been approved by DOJ and later rescinded as not authorized (C&R pistol - - new Colt National Match .45 ACP - - the DOJ approved the sale then pivoted to require the vendor to retrieve the pistols as not eligible for C&R consideration. This was not a one-off, but a number of pistols state-wide).
Legally...

The transfer/background check of a firearm transfer only checks to see if the transferee is a non-prohibited person and does not check the legality of the firearm being transferred.
^CA DOJ BOF has testified in the past that a firearm being successfully transferred does not mean that the firearm is CA legal and that it only means the person receiving the firearm is legally able to take possession of a firearm.

It is on the CA FFL dealer to determine if the firearm being transferred is CA legal and if it is a handgun, on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or exempt from it.

From past incidents when a CA FFL dealer transferred an off-Roster handgun as an on-Roster handgun:
1. The transferee received a letter from CA DOJ BOF requesting the transferee to return off-Roster handgun in order for it be exchanged with the correct on-Roster handgun.
^Since this is simply a request, there is no legal requirement to comply with the request.
2. The CA FFL dealer responsible for the transfer had their CA FFL dealer status revoked or their renewal denied due to illegally selling/transferring a non-exempt unsafe handgun.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-09-2024 at 7:04 PM..
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2024, 7:37 PM
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Shot and enjoy!
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  #9  
Old 02-10-2024, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
Hypothetical question:

What would happen if this hypothetical scenario happened:

Somebody is interested in buying a handgun that has a lot of variations that look similar and trusts their local shop to sell him/er the one that is on the roster, especially since said shop also carries the LE only variations. Purchase is made and FFL puts in the model and serial # and DROS processes fine and picks up after 10 days.

After a couple months, the same person needs to take the new handgun to an authorized armorer to fix an issue. The owner fills out the repair form with the model and serial# that is on the DROS form. The authorized armorer goes over the repair form and says "the serial number matches what's on your handgun, but the model number is wrong. In fact, the model you have is not on the roster". After the owner tells the story above, the armorer shrugs his shoulders and completes the repair and returns the handgun to the owner.

Question - what should the owner do at this point in the hypothetical scenario?
Not post it.
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2024, 11:42 AM
cosmonaut cosmonaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by still919 View Post
Not post it.
One could infer that the hypothetical scenario is a thinly disguised attempt to obscure a true story about some fortunate gun owner. However, it's really an example of how many of us in CA wonder about creative ways to "legally" obtain off roster guns without paying exorbitant prices in a back door way that was never intended to create such a secondary market. Such is life in our oppressive state. I'm sure readers from the free states find this whole thread rather comical and sad.

But alas, I'm sure manufacturer's serial numbers incorporate some indication of model # so this scenario while hypothetical is highly improbable.
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  #11  
Old 02-10-2024, 12:08 PM
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short answer:

you legally own an off-roster gun
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CA DOJ BOF stance on modifying handguns only applies to dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistols and dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistols.
^It does not apply to revolvers, manually operated repeating pistols, and semi-auto pistols." ~~ Quiet
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2024, 12:53 PM
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Congratulations, hypothetically!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2024, 9:32 PM
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I, hypothetically, see some hypothetical gun owners in hypothetical handcuffs.
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  #14  
Old 02-11-2024, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
Hypothetical question:

What would happen if this hypothetical scenario happened:

Somebody is interested in buying a handgun that has a lot of variations that look similar and trusts their local shop to sell him/er the one that is on the roster, especially since said shop also carries the LE only variations. Purchase is made and FFL puts in the model and serial # and DROS processes fine and picks up after 10 days.

After a couple months, the same person needs to take the new handgun to an authorized armorer to fix an issue. The owner fills out the repair form with the model and serial# that is on the DROS form. The authorized armorer goes over the repair form and says "the serial number matches what's on your handgun, but the model number is wrong. In fact, the model you have is not on the roster". After the owner tells the story above, the armorer shrugs his shoulders and completes the repair and returns the handgun to the owner.

Question - what should the owner do at this point in the hypothetical scenario?
Hypothetically, how would the armorer know the model number is wrong, whatever that is supposed to mean? There are loads of off-roster handguns in CA. DROSed several of them personally, and I am not an exempt person. At first they were SSE and then intra-family transfers. All but a Sig P226 were thereafter PPT to various Californians just prior to me moving to Idaho.
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  #15  
Old 02-11-2024, 8:25 PM
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So hypothetically if we all became FFL dealers and accidentally permitted Gen 5 glocks to be DROS'ed to each other, the only thing we would face is a revocation of our CA FFL status or loss of status at renewal?

Or we can find a current FFL that is planning on retiring/closing, like Martin B. Retting and pose this hypothetical situation to them.

In Minecraft, or again hypothetically.
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  #16  
Old 02-11-2024, 9:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitruc View Post
So hypothetically if we all became FFL dealers and accidentally permitted Gen 5 glocks to be DROS'ed to each other, the only thing we would face is a revocation of our CA FFL status or loss of status at renewal?

Or we can find a current FFL that is planning on retiring/closing, like Martin B. Retting and pose this hypothetical situation to them.

In Minecraft, or again hypothetically.
Hypothetically, using the past cases and current laws as a guide...

It depends on how it was done and what the CA DOJ BOF can prove.

If it was done due to an error or mistake, then revocation or denial + $1000-3000 fine per incident.

If it was done on purpose, then revocation or denial + misdemeanor arrest (up to 1 year in jail + fine) + $1000-3000 fine per incident.

If it was done on purpose and coordinated or talked about with others (conspiracy), then revocation or denial + felony arrests for the dealer and everyone else involved in the conspiracy (up to 1 year in prison or jail + $10,000 fine) + $1000-3000 fine per incident.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-11-2024 at 9:07 PM..
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