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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-10-2019, 5:15 PM
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Default Hawaii Butterfly knife federal lawsuit filed

Today I filed a case I've been wanting to file for about 7 years. Hawaii bans the ownership of butterfly knives for no apparent reason. Thankfully Burton Richardson Andrew Namiki Roberts and the Hawaii Firearms Coalition have teamed up with myself and my clients to challenge this unconstitutional law. Please look at the complaint and Burton's expert report.
https://www.scribd.com/document/4058...h-All-Exhibits
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Old 04-10-2019, 6:04 PM
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I wonder if including this sort of discussion is wise:

Quote:
The old argument is that a switch blade or balisong is too dangerous to be entrusted to the public because a citizen can pull and quickly open the blade with one hand.
(snip)
Butterfly knife 1.3, 1.4. 1.2, 1.5 Average = 1.35 seconds
(emphasis mine)

Talking about speed, lethality, statistics -- all this seems like giving up territory and giving ammunition to the other side. So if balisongs were ultra-fast instead of slow on the draw should they continue to be banned? If their handles did not enclose the blade, should they continue to be banned? If they accounted for a higher percentage of murders in HI than pistols, should they continue to be banned?

Arms are supposed to be dangerous, lethal, etc. It's the whole point, and the reason why protecting the right to keep and bear them is so important. Opening the door to arbitrary measures as a reason why weapon X is OK will eventually backfire against us, because there is no limit to which arbitrary measures of safety / speed / lethality can be introduced, and it won't take long until the antis will find those arbitrary measures which favor their side, and then what?

None of this should be taken as a criticism of your great work, just having a discussion and trying to learn from the man on the front lines!
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Old 04-10-2019, 6:35 PM
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New Mexico Supreme Court already upheld its switchblade ban on the basis that switchblade deploy quickly so that study is there to distinguish that case.
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Old 04-10-2019, 6:57 PM
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Traditional Chinese Martial Arts also have what they call a Butterfly knives. These are actually paired, rather broad, flat blades maybe 18 inches long. They are used like nunchucks in their motion. These are basically Bronze Age weapons and really have no practical value in the modern world except as a training tool.

Your butterfly knives are different from these but I am wondering if these Chinese knives were banned in Hawaii too?
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Old 04-10-2019, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Today I filed a case I've been wanting to file for about 7 years. Hawaii bans the ownership of butterfly knives for no apparent reason. Thankfully Burton Richardson Andrew Namiki Roberts and the Hawaii Firearms Coalition have teamed up with myself and my clients to challenge this unconstitutional law. Please look at the complaint and Burton's expert report.



https://www.scribd.com/document/4058...ith-Burton-Dec
I'd love someone to file suit in California too. They aren't illegal to own, but sales are still banned.

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Old 04-10-2019, 7:16 PM
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Free the balisong!

Did you reach out/coordinate with KnifeRights?
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Old 04-10-2019, 7:16 PM
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You need to look no further than the flag of Hawaii as to why they would adopt English style knife bans.
Attachment 794954
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Old 04-10-2019, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by readysetgo View Post
Free the balisong!

Did you reach out/coordinate with KnifeRights?
I tried they did not seem interested.

That is okay. I used to train with Burton back on the Island. I mostly compete in jiu jitsu but I trained knife and stick fighting for a long time. Burton and I know more than any expert the state if going to be able to find.
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Old 04-10-2019, 7:55 PM
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reminds me of that new york nunchuck lawsuit
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Old 04-10-2019, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
reminds me of that new york nunchuck lawsuit
California also ban nunchucks. I think that would be a good case down the road in light of the NY ruling
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Old 04-10-2019, 8:27 PM
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Quote:
the right of the people to keep and bear ARMS, shall not be infringed.
No mention of just firearms.

GO GET EM WOLFIE
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Old 04-19-2019, 8:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
California also ban nunchucks. I think that would be a good case down the road in light of the NY ruling
My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.
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Old 04-19-2019, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbroom View Post
My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.
They can be owned for demonstration/competition use onlyaq

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Old 04-19-2019, 10:22 AM
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Awesome, thank you sir for filing!

Here's another article detailing your efforts:
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/04/haw...ndment-grounds
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Old 08-01-2019, 4:59 PM
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the state filed its discovery responses.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4201...6G9ZQLNWxSa3SU

https://www.scribd.com/document/4201...R7hXo3z-iiaqXE

https://www.scribd.com/document/4201...T7_fASlFobQNDE
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Old 08-01-2019, 7:24 PM
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So these cork suckers basically dont want to cough anyhthing up and cry and whine and object to everything...

Well,in the future we the firearm and knife owning public should be able to cite the same reasons or variations of,such as how vague and ambiguous various gun control laws are and the fact that they are intentionally vague cannot be accurately interpreted and cause pain and burden upon us...

What a bunch of tools,worthless,id be on their asses for being incompetent in the job and duties.

I wish you luck and hopefully someone with balls calks them out on their bs.
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Old 08-01-2019, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbroom View Post
My daughters Tae Kwon Do school still teaches with nunchucks. I don’t know the exact wording of the law however they are allowed to own them and teach. My daughter who will be testing for her black belt in a few months will be able to purchase and own them once that level is achieved according to our studio. Maybe a martial arts enthusiast exemption or something.
The CA ban on nunchaku would seem to be a good opportunity for a test case: https://www.mantecabulletin.com/opin...ng-overturned/
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Old 08-01-2019, 8:58 PM
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My machete is already open
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Old 08-01-2019, 9:02 PM
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But the children? ?????
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:57 PM
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Haha, nunchucks would be cool to own.. but are more dangerous to rhenuser unless you're trained in their use (I wasn't. nearly cracked an elbow when I was 12!)
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Old 08-05-2019, 1:14 PM
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Initial disclosures filed.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4208...duIKKPO6znJW80
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Old 08-12-2019, 9:40 PM
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Be sure to edit the title of this thread with the case name and status.

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Old 08-12-2019, 9:52 PM
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Fixed blades are legal and already "open" so the speed argument is asinine. Brandishing laws already cover "scary" situations.
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Old 08-14-2019, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
My machete is already open
My machete is in a canvas sheath with slow as hell snap closures.
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Old 11-21-2019, 8:01 AM
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This is the transcript the deposition in our challenge to Hawaii's balisong knife ban deposition we took a couple week ago.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4362...ong-Deposition
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Old 12-31-2019, 7:41 AM
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This has always turned me on about Butterfly Knives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTp...index=163&t=0s
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Old 12-31-2019, 9:30 AM
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Thanks for the updates & for fighting this battle!
Best of luck!!!
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Old 01-14-2020, 8:59 AM
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MSJ got filed


https://www.scribd.com/document/4429...-case-MSJ-Memo


https://www.scribd.com/document/4429...t-and-Exhibits
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Old 01-14-2020, 9:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
reminds me of that new york nunchuck lawsuit
Just having a hard time envisioning a guy robbing liqueur stores with nunchucks
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Old 01-15-2020, 7:12 PM
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Hawaii filed its MSJ

Now its time to write the opposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...FV4gJ7YYn8E0do
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:46 PM
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Hawaii Firearms Coalition filed an amicus brief

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...arms-Coalition
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Old 01-20-2020, 5:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
Fixed blades are legal and already "open" so the speed argument is asinine. Brandishing laws already cover "scary" situations.
Good going... now they are likely working on a law that will compel all fixed blade owners to audibly count to three before drawing a fixed blade from its sheath.
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Old 01-22-2020, 3:14 PM
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everytown filed a amicus brief

https://www.scribd.com/document/4439...n-Amicus-Brief
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Old 01-27-2020, 1:06 PM
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You got the logic completely wrong on your lawsuit.

If a butterfly knife is more dangerous, it is more constitutionally protected.

The 2nd amendment protects "arms" - not tools.

It protects "arms" for the purpose of "the people" maintaining "the security of a free State"

If the object you're trying to talk about, related to the 2nd amendment, cannot be used to assault people, whenever assaulting people is "necessary to the security of a free State", then it is not constitutionally protected at all.

It is not my opinion, but inarguable fact, that the 2nd amendment ONLY protects weapons for assaulting people.

This argument is first and foremost why the 2nd amendment should be winning here.

The secondary argument is that the knife laws do nothing that the states claim they do. They do nothing to public safety, as other knives can open more quickly than a butterfly knife by far. They don't help keep people from being hurt, as they're not used in crimes that often. These secondary arguments are also reason to throw the knife bans out completely...

But the most important argument is that banning weapons, for assaulting peopel, violates 18USC 241 - Conspiracy Against Rights, and 18USC 242 - Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law. These two laws carry a maximum penalty of death. When lawmakers should be put in prison, up to life, or put to death, for passing these unconstitutional state laws, there is no question that the laws need to be thrown out immediately.
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Old 01-27-2020, 3:13 PM
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the burden should be that they are somehow more dangerous than a comparable legal product and the case should be dismissed the moment a master balisong user goes up against anyone with any assisted opener in an opening contest
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Old 01-29-2020, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
Hawaii filed its MSJ

Now its time to write the opposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/4431...FV4gJ7YYn8E0do
I haven't read the amicus briefs, but the MSJ itself contains some real whoppers.

1) HI argues that because gang members possess butterfly knives, it follows that law abiding citizens do not typically possess butterfly knives. This is a logical fallacy. Butterfly knives can be possessed by both law-abiding citizens and criminals. In fact, HI's own evidence indicates that butterfly knives were being sold openly, which suggests that law-abiding citizens do possess the knives.

2) HI argues that butterfly knives are more dangerous than "regular" knives because they are readily concealable whereas regular knives are not readily concealable. I think you should go to court with a whole bunch of regular (albeit rubber) knives secreted on your person and start pulling them out of your sleeves and pockets.

That is a startlingly incompetent MSJ.
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Old 03-30-2020, 11:48 AM
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Today we filed our opposition to the State of Hawaii's motion for summary judgement. In person oral arguments have been canceled due to the virus but we should be having telephonic arguments on April 28th.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4540...fly-Knife-Case
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Old 04-07-2020, 7:46 PM
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State of Hawaii opposition to our summary judgement
https://pdfhost.io/v/V0a0OdRRA_Teter...y_knifepdf.pdf
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Old 04-14-2020, 4:18 PM
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state filed its reply brief

https://pdfhost.io/v/WjoZeLQoB_teter...y_knifepdf.pdf

we filed out reply as well.
https://pdfhost.io/v/JwBVtRocC_Teter...fe_casepdf.pdf
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Old 04-29-2020, 6:03 AM
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The following transaction was entered on 4/28/2020 at 12:28 PM HST and filed on 4/28/2020
Case Name: Teter et al v. Connors et al
Case Number: 1:19-cv-00183-ACK-WRP
Filer:
Document Number: 60
Docket Text:
EP: Motion Hearing held regarding Plaintiffs' Motion for Summary Judgment [33] and Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment [36].
Amicus Attorney Wendy F. Hanakahi, Esq. representing Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund present.Amicus Attorney Kevin G. O'Grady, Esq. representing Hawaii Firearms Coalition present.
Arguments were heard.
Both the Plaintiffs' Motion for Summary Judgment [33] and Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment [36] is taken under advisement.
Court to prepare a written order.
(Court Reporter Ann Matsumoto.) (JUDGE ALAN C. KAY)(il, )
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