Advice on acquiring a Winchester 1897 Trench gun

[Rogerbutthead]

I was thinking of acquiring a Winchester 1897 Trench gun and notice there seem to be variations in the WWI and WWII examples. Then I read that most of the 1897 Trench guns for sale are fakes. People seem to accept 5k and up for a real example - 10k plus for a nice one.

So I guess it is like trying to buy a German K98K sniper - almost all are fakes - ?

Cannot even seem to find a Norinco Trench gun clone for sale. No idea what Cowboy shooters are - but they are acquiring all the slam fire shotguns out there - ?

What did you guys do to satisfy this urge for a Trench gun example?

[Killer Bee]

not sure why but they sure have been turning up a lot lately

whole bevy of em on gunbroker recently, several from seemingly reputable sellers $3k starting and up

I stumbled across this '41 genuine U.S. issue model 11R (riot) while buying something else

got it for something like $250 - figured why not

that's scratching my itch close enough for now

[Rogerbutthead]

Was that Remington 11R at a garage sale?

Can't believe you got that deal at an auction house.

Nice find.

I need to fill that Browning 5 look niche in my accumulation.

[Killer Bee]

seller inherited it and a couple others from his dad but wouldn't even touch them

friend of his listing the guns showed it to me while I was checking out a '71 Belgian BLR .308 I was after

bought both for $500, met them at FFL to transfer, he just wanted rid of them

the top one is that .308, vintage scope and muzzle brake was on it

stocks were scratched up a little but I recently acquired a pair of NOS replacements

bottom one is a '71 .243 I picked up a few years later



apologies for the hijack

[wayno21]

A browning A5 with the wood stock and angle of the end of receiver. I would hang it over the fireplace like a famous painting.

[TMB 1]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/990376295

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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/989455962

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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/989949113

[Rogerbutthead]

Thanks, added to my watch list.

Don't know how I missed the Norinco.

*Think I will be outbid on the Norinco.

[Imageview]

Interesting how much the clone is going for. At that point why not buy a real Winchester and cut it down & do the conversion work?

[The Gleam]

Originally Posted by Imageview

At that point why not buy a real Winchester and cut it down & do the conversion work?

Don't do this - except maybe on one that has lost all its finish, the wood has more dings than China, the barrel is dented and its bore looks like Heidi Fleiss' vagina.

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[Imageview]

Originally Posted by The Gleam

Don't do this - except maybe on one that has lost all its finish, the wood has more dings than China, the barrel is dented and its bore looks like Heidi Fleiss' vagina.

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Any particular reason why not?

[The Gleam]

Originally Posted by Imageview

Any particular reason why not?

Because you can just as easily find some other moron that already ruined a perfectly good gun, than to go ahead and be moron part two by ruining another one, regardless if Winchester made more than a million of them - they aren't making any more.

There are plenty of butchered guns already in circulation to be had, it's bad enough there's a gob of fake trench-guns gluttoning the market.

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[Rogerbutthead]

I bought two old Winchester 1897s - was thinking of doing that, but it would always be a fake - so a Chinese copy would just fill the same niche - and I would have two unaltered wall hangers to use to admire the work of John Moses Browning.

The guy was a genius.

Going to have to spend more time reading up on Trench guns - specifically 1897s - seems like a minefield and I have a tendency to blunder about.

[TMB 1]

The third link is a real Winchester that has already been cut down and a solid frame, making it a good candidate for a fake trench gun since the damage has already been done, I think all you would have to do is put the bayonet lug handguard on it.

The first Norinco already has bayonet lug handguard but you could probably do the same to the second Norinco.

[Rogerbutthead]

I shouldn't bid when I am half awake.

I wasn't going to bid on the non-trench Norinco but I did.

Need to stay away from auction houses.

[TMB 1]

Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead

I shouldn't bid when I am half awake.

I wasn't going to bid on the non-trench Norinco but I did.

Need to stay away from auction houses.

The non-trench Norinco bid is getting up there, must be the cowboy action guys bidding it up.

[jyo]

I was managing gun stores when the Chinese 97 clones came out---rough, rough, rough! Not really comparable to a real 97! How do I know? I've owned three 97s over the decades---none were trench guns, but I've had a lot experience with 97s... Save up and buy a real 97---it will go up in value even if you make it into a trench gun...

[Quiet]

Those Norinco clones are not to spec with the originals.
All non-Norinco parts need to be hand fitted because they are not in spec to what Norinco used to make those clones.
In addition, some of the Norinco parts are substandard and made from inferior metals, which will break or warp over time/use.

[TMB 1]

I have a 93/97 I got at Big 5, it is a very good shotgun, seems just as good as my original 97s, maybe not quite as smooth but both of my originals have had over 100 years of smoothing. Also the hammer was going bad on one of my originals and I replaced it with what I am pretty sure is a Norinco hammer I got from Numrich Gun Parts, worked perfect.

[tmnguuyen]

slam fire Win 97 is a must have.



Trench guns are fun. The ones in the pictures are real riot guns from Winchester with the shield added. They're 20" barrel with CYL chokes. I have extra shield and a set of take down 97 that i contemplating cutting the 26" barrel with the CYL choke marking to make a trench gun but didn't go through with it. If you want to attemp that, let me know and i can send you the info of the gun.

WWI are all fixed barrel where wwii are take down conversion.

Thanks

[Wlee]

Always wanted a trench gun, the M1897 trench guns are always expensive and the ones that appear to have providence even more so. Heard horror stories about various Norincos as well. I wound up settling on an Ithaca 37 M&P DSPS from 1965 that had the factory installed heat-shield and steel buttplate. Fits a 1917 bayonet handily and is still slamfire. Almost identical to the WW2 version as well. Ofcourse I also picked up a regular 1897 from 1929 as well.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead

No idea what Cowboy shooters are - but they are acquiring all the slam fire shotguns out there - ?

Cowboy Shooters - People that play a shooting sport with a cosplay element, dressing up like cowboys and cowgirls and shooting period correct (but not necessarily period replica) firearms for speed and accuracy.

https://sassnet.com

The 1897 is the only pump gun allowed in the game IIRC. All guns must be a model designed before 1899.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by NapalmCheese

Cowboy Shooters - People that play a shooting sport with a cosplay element, dressing up like cowboys and cowgirls and shooting period correct (but not necessarily period replica) firearms for speed and accuracy.

https://sassnet.com

The 1897 is the only pump gun allowed in the game IIRC. All guns must be a model designed before 1899.

The CA cowboy action shooters are also the "pro-gun" people that sold their support to get exemptions to CA gun control laws.
They switched from opposing the legislation to supporting the legislation and were used by anti-gun politicians to show that the legislation was so common sense that pro-gun groups supported it and were used to sway/convince others that passing the legislation would not upset gun owners because these "pro-gun" groups supported the legislation.

Exemption for dimensionally compliant single-action revolvers = passing CA unsafe handgun legislation.
Exemption for lever-action firearms = passing CA large capacity magazine and assault weapons by features legislation.

[deadcoyote]

Originally Posted by Quiet

The CA cowboy action shooters are also the "pro-gun" people that sold their support to get exemptions to CA gun control laws.
They switched from opposing the legislation to supporting the legislation and were used by anti-gun politicians to show that the legislation was so common sense that pro-gun groups supported it and were used to sway/convince others that passing the legislation would not upset gun owners because these "pro-gun" groups supported the legislation.

Exemption for dimensionally compliant single-action revolvers = passing CA unsafe handgun legislation.
Exemption for lever-action firearms = passing CA large capacity magazine and assault weapons by features legislation.

I shot USPSA and 3 gun for a long time. The local cowboy action club actually used the same private facility the same day of the month prior to USPSA events. I like old guns and own all the required firearms for SASS. I asked the club if I could pay and come shoot with them without doing the period costume and they got surprisingly pissed off actually and told me no. That was about all I needed to learn of the SASS folks.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by deadcoyote

I shot USPSA and 3 gun for a long time. The local cowboy action club actually used the same private facility the same day of the month prior to USPSA events. I like old guns and own all the required firearms for SASS. I asked the club if I could pay and come shoot with them without doing the period costume and they got surprisingly pissed off actually and told me no. That was about all I needed to learn of the SASS folks.

As far as the costuming goes, it's right in the handbook; costuming is an important part of the event.

That said, half the people you see at a semi-rural Tractor Supply are already wearing SASS legal costumes for most categories. In all but two categories a cowboy hat, some cowboyish boots, jeans, and a long sleeve button up shirt are all you need. They may have also balked at other things, SASS is pretty strict on what bullets (soft lead, no jackets) and what velocity you're shooting (you're shooting steel plates from 3-20 yards away) as ricochets are common.

Oh well, different folks get different strokes. The folks I shoot with have all been welcoming, helpful, respectful, happy to bring in new shooters and talk about a lot of non-Fudd guns.

Either way, the 97 is legal in all but one or two categories for SASS and legal for Wild Bunch. It's also fast if you can run a pump gun, which is why the SASS shooters are buying them. You're limited to only loading two rounds at a time, but if you can load-two (not allowed to quad load) you can be pretty quick. I wouldn't mind adding one and trying it out, though it'd be anachronistic for my persona, not that anyone cares, as that's not part of the rules; but I do have a soft spot for take-down guns...

[k1dude]

Originally Posted by NapalmCheese

As far as the costuming goes, it's right in the handbook; costuming is an important part of the event.

That said, half the people you see at a semi-rural Tractor Supply are already wearing SASS legal costumes for most categories. In all but two categories a cowboy hat, some cowboyish boots, jeans, and a long sleeve button up shirt are all you need.

Funny thing is, during the actual heyday of the American West, almost no one dressed like that.

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by Quiet

The CA cowboy action shooters are also the "pro-gun" people that sold their support to get exemptions to CA gun control laws.
They switched from opposing the legislation to supporting the legislation and were used by anti-gun politicians to show that the legislation was so common sense that pro-gun groups supported it and were used to sway/convince others that passing the legislation would not upset gun owners because these "pro-gun" groups supported the legislation.

Exemption for dimensionally compliant single-action revolvers = passing CA unsafe handgun legislation.
Exemption for lever-action firearms = passing CA large capacity magazine and assault weapons by features legislation.

I was coming in to post this.

SASS sold us out, plain and simple.

[Rogerbutthead]

Wonder if that Norinco Trench gun clone is going to go north of 1200 - ?

Saw a supposed real Trench gun go for north of 3.8k.

Don't know enough to bid that high.

[deadcoyote]

Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead

Wonder if that Norinco Trench gun clone is going to go north of 1200 - ?

Saw a supposed real Trench gun go for north of 3.8k.

Don't know enough to bid that high.

So I had wanted one of them for a long time. I had kind of given up on finding one due to increasing prices etc. stumbled onto one in November for $150. Grabbed it up.

[M1NM]

You need to go back in time to the late 70s when Fed Ord in S El Monte was selling them for $50. Roachy Philippine returns but there were several pallets to pick through. I snagged a couple riot guns since most of the trench ones had more damage to the stocks and barrel shields.

[TMB 1]

I was reading the SASS people talking on Facebook. When I read that the 93/97 was not allowed, it made me wonder about them since the 93/97 is just a 97 made to look like a 93.

[Imageview]

Now I want to know what an 1880s hog farmer dressed liked.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by Imageview

Now I want to know what an 1880s hog farmer dressed liked.

I think I've got some pictures!

In reality it's not terribly hard to find pictures of Gold Rush era CA from a few different sources. There aren't a ton, but a few. The 1880s see a lot more photos but they tend to focus on town life. General outdoor working attire would have been high waisted, loosely fit trousers, a loosely fit henley or button up with the occasional bib shirt represented (few collars), boots or brogans, usually a soft felt hat. Reading material from the time, flannel shirts were the thing to wear, usually blue or red and some sort of bandana was really common. Interestingly enough a lot of photos seem to show guys without suspenders and of course no belt, but the pants at the time often had a little cinch in the back to keep them tight. Working clothes at the time were worn and repaired until they were no longer recognizable. Things were changing a bit by the 1880s so far as style goes, but working clothes were all pretty much the same for a LONG time.

So, your 1880s hog farmer would have looked generally like a hobo.

[Rogerbutthead]

I got that cut barreled Winchester 1897 and since it is already "bubba'd", will explore what the costs of getting into Trench Gun configuration will be.

Anyone have experience with Bull Creek Arms conversion work?

https://bullcreekarms.com/index.php?...&product_id=77

[Imageview]

My 1897 was already cut when I got it. So no particular need or desire to cut one down. No need to get a bayonet lug either, don?t think a knife on the end would improve its swing. But at the same time it?s just a tool. If you can make a tool function the way you want by modifying it, it?s your tool you do what you want.

I wouldn?t particularly have an issue cutting down an 1897, any more than getting a stock adjusted on a double to fit me better. Or should I leave my 1904 vintage greener with a 13.5? LOP because it?s an interesting historical specimen instead of adding a pad to get it a bit longer and shoot better for me? Now if it was a 1897 with specific provenance and actual historical interest, I could see an argument. But not just a normal random gun.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by Imageview

I wouldn?t particularly have an issue cutting down an 1897, any more than getting a stock adjusted on a double to fit me better. Or should I leave my 1904 vintage greener with a 13.5? LOP because it?s an interesting historical specimen instead of adding a pad to get it a bit longer and shoot better for me? Now if it was a 1897 with specific provenance and actual historical interest, I could see an argument. But not just a normal random gun.

For my personal collection: if it's 1 of a million I can do whatever I want. If it's one of a 1000, I'll make sure there are better examples in museums and do whatever I want. If there are no better examples I'll keep it stock. If it's one of 10 or so, I don't change it.

[19K]

I had a norinco trench gun. It broke after like 20-30 rounds.

[SDDAVE56]

Originally Posted by 19K

I had a norinco trench gun. It broke after like 20-30 rounds.

I have a Norinco Trench Gun. Purchased new in 2005 or thereabouts. Approximate round count to date, 250-300. No mechanical problems with it.

[SDDAVE56]

Couple of pics