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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 88 8.33%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 696 65.91%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.27%
I paid too much for my Membership! 47 4.45%
They will go out of business this year! 30 2.84%
Don't want anything to do with them! 171 16.19%
Voters: 1056. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13641  
Old 01-12-2022, 9:28 PM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
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Definitely possible. I just want to make sure our crew knew about the new enforcement, so none of us show up with an undersized handgun and have to rent. I know not everyone reads and/or receive the emails.
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  #13642  
Old 01-12-2022, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Any exceptions?

In my 4DDHG class - had a couple of shooters sporting G26 and an M&P Shield 9. I would recall one was a repeat student and had DGed several times and wanted to have a challenge with his Shield.


_
Last time I took a 2DDHG I used my shield 9mm. That was 2018/2019.

TY for the head's up.
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  #13643  
Old 01-13-2022, 12:17 AM
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Default Bonus Gun

Has anyone had any experience with the bonus gun program? I'm a Diamond member and purchased some additional memberships a while back and was awarded a "bonus gun", but that was some time ago. I've checked in with them frequently but just getting the "just be patient" speech due to the pandemic...which I understand (closures, slowdowns, supply chain, etc.). With that said, this was over a year ago now and I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm getting the feeling that this isn't going to happen. Anyone else had an extraordinarily long wait period for a FS bonus gun...or is this just me?
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  #13644  
Old 01-13-2022, 8:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
Definitely possible. I just want to make sure our crew knew about the new enforcement, so none of us show up with an undersized handgun and have to rent. I know not everyone reads and/or receive the emails.
Thanks @TeamAllen. I actually just got that email this morning...

I was actually planning to come in with a G26 to try out - my previous 4DDHG was with a G19. Dang it!


_
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  #13645  
Old 01-13-2022, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Thanks @TeamAllen. I actually just got that email this morning...

I was actually planning to come in with a G26 to try out - my previous 4DDHG was with a G19. Dang it!


_
I thought G26 and anything larger is OK still? G26 is the cutoff, right?
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  #13646  
Old 01-13-2022, 1:34 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
I thought G26 and anything larger is OK still? G26 is the cutoff, right?
That is my understanding of the email also. G26 good, P365 bad.
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  #13647  
Old 01-13-2022, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
I thought G26 and anything larger is OK still? G26 is the cutoff, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
That is my understanding of the email also. G26 good, P365 bad.
OK. Sweet then!

_
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  #13648  
Old 01-14-2022, 7:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
Last time I took a 2DDHG I used my shield 9mm. That was 2018/2019.

TY for the head's up.
Bummer! I was planning on running my Shield or P365 the next time I go with someone for 4DDHG to keep it more interesting. I guess I'll just do it with a full size gun but shoot left handed instead .
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  #13649  
Old 01-14-2022, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
Looks like the last incident, Dec 2021, involved a student re-holstering (surprise) a SIG P365. Grazed their leg was all. Drove themselves to the hospital. Could have something to do with it?
The accident gun was a P365XL according to the FS web site.

Even though his email points out the P365, the 365XL is LARGER than the G26.

According to SigSauer.com, the P365XL is 6.6 inches long and 4.8 inches high. A G26 is 6.5 inches long and 4.17 inches high. In overall numbers, the P365XL is larger than the G26.

According to the email, the G26 is, "roughly 6.4" slide length and 4.2" frame height."

Here's where it gets messy. Does the slide length really affect the handling or safety of the gun?

Dr. Piazza mentions "slide length." Well, the G26 reports a "sight radius" of 5.7 inches, and the P365XL reports 5.6 inches. Except the BARREL length of the G26 is 3.43 inches, and the barrel length of the P365 XL is 3.7 inches. The *slide* of the G26 is in fact 6.26 inches. The slide length of a Sig is a bit tougher to find since the "3.7 inch slide" is actually something like 6.4 inches long, since the "3.7 inch slide" is one meant for a 3.7 inch BARREL, but I could not find precise documentation.

The only P365 smaller than the G26 is the "straight" P365 and the "P365 NITRON MICRO-COMPACT" which, according to the accident report, is NOT the accident gun...

So, there is a bit of confusion. I sort of expect if you showed up with ANY model P365, even if it measures larger than a G26, you will not be allowed to use it. Which, is sad, since the P365XL is a great gun by all accounts, and nothing like the Shield in size or handling.

Katie

Last edited by Kate; 01-14-2022 at 6:44 PM..
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  #13650  
Old 01-16-2022, 11:17 AM
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Just came back from my 2 day defensive handgun class. I came back very impressed with the professionalism everywhere. It’s so strange how everything about frontsight other than the actual training screams sketchiness.

Very happy with my experience and looking for when I can go back for the 4 day.

Also very bummed to be locked into a patriot membership. They don’t even allow an upgrade path it seems, you are kind of just stuck with limited access to courses until Glorious Leader feels strapped for cash again I guess?

Last edited by Epicnemesis; 01-16-2022 at 2:57 PM..
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  #13651  
Old 01-16-2022, 2:13 PM
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There is always an upgrade path. I believe Knight level is at $2000 with private training option for 9 people and a free 1911 handgun, but if you wait, he tends to offer the top memberships at lower price levels as time goes, with less perks. So enjoy your Patriot membership for now until you DG your basic classes when you really can make use of your higher level membership.
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  #13652  
Old 01-16-2022, 4:48 PM
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Give the concierge a call. Usually 1k for the upgrade. But like beans said get to the point where you have DGed then look to move up. Took me a bit to get to the point of DG. The class is not as easy as most think.
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  #13653  
Old 01-17-2022, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
There is always an upgrade path. I believe Knight level is at $2000 with private training option for 9 people and a free 1911 handgun, but if you wait, he tends to offer the top memberships at lower price levels as time goes, with less perks. So enjoy your Patriot membership for now until you DG your basic classes when you really can make use of your higher level membership.
I think that window has closed. The link is expired now, from what I experienced.
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  #13654  
Old 01-17-2022, 12:33 PM
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Can anyone confirm if Federal Syntech is allowed for classes?
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  #13655  
Old 01-17-2022, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ES13Raven View Post
Can anyone confirm if Federal Syntech is allowed for classes?
Which class? And which Syntech?

For the 4DDHG, 2DDHG, the THG/ATHG - any of the flavors would suffice (Defense, Range, Training, Action Pistol).

If the HCMP, as I was told by a HCM/RM - the Action Pistol flavor is prohibited.

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  #13656  
Old 01-17-2022, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Which class? And which Syntech?
For the 4DDHG, 2DDHG, the THG/ATHG - any of the flavors would suffice (Defense, Range, Training, Action Pistol).
If the HCMP, as I was told by a HCM/RM - the Action Pistol flavor is prohibited.
Perfect, thanks.
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  #13657  
Old 01-17-2022, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Epicnemesis View Post
Just came back from my 2 day defensive handgun class. I came back very impressed with the professionalism everywhere. It’s so strange how everything about frontsight other than the actual training screams sketchiness.
Glad to hear you had a good time. I think that's everyone's experience with FS. The marketing and external image is bizarre, while the training is good and a great value. To be able to move that many people through their school is a great service for firearm safety/proficiency. I will caveat that with I think there are some independent trainers/schools that IMO are better for more advanced handgun stuff. Everyone has a different style and FS's style is fine for most people.
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  #13658  
Old 01-17-2022, 8:31 PM
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2 more weeks to my first private lesson. It's going to be 3-days. 2-days of practical rifle and 1-day of handgun.

So, any tips? I believe same as the standard classes? Come in early to avoid the long queue of vehicles, sign-up, weapons inspection, then get sent to a range, etc?

In regards to round count? Any tips? I am thinking about 500-rds of 223s for 2-days and 500-rds of 9s.

Cheers!


_
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  #13659  
Old 01-17-2022, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
2 more weeks to my first private lesson. It's going to be 3-days. 2-days of practical rifle and 1-day of handgun.

So, any tips? I believe same as the standard classes? Come in early to avoid the long queue of vehicles, sign-up, weapons inspection, then get sent to a range, etc?

In regards to round count? Any tips? I am thinking about 500-rds of 223s for 2-days and 500-rds of 9s.

Cheers!


_
IIRC, you go straight to admin where you'll check in and complete the usual Day 1 paperwork. You'll then go to your range.

Round count: bring extra. The more you take, the more you can shoot. You're relay 1 and 2. You're in a private so you get to call the shots, within reason. It's your class. If you get a cool instructor, he'll run you through some extra drills. Some will stick with the curriculum, but you can repeat drills and the test.

A buddy and I did tac hg one day and hcmp on another. We brought about 1200 rds each. We shot a least 1000 rds in two days.

Private classes are awesome. IME, the instructors are much more relaxed and it's a much better experience for everyone involved. Especially if you have a what-happens-on-the-range-stays-on-the-range attitude.

Have fun!
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  #13660  
Old 01-17-2022, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
I think that window has closed. The link is expired now, from what I experienced.
Darn! Wife just told me Sunday I can get that for my BD
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  #13661  
Old 01-17-2022, 10:07 PM
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I’ve only done one private. 850 rounds that day. Learned a lot. Just work with the instructor and let him know your gtg to burn more than the round count.
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  #13662  
Old 01-17-2022, 10:41 PM
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Thanks guys!!!

I will bring more ammo then... Still considering whether I'd just order from ASW. Or order online and bring it to Pahrump (which is new) - I have Prime from TargetSports, and I get lower CPR even if I take in Komiefornia tax.


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  #13663  
Old 01-18-2022, 8:39 AM
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Default Tax Should Be Based on Destination

"...I get lower CPR even if I take in Komiefornia tax". The tax you pay should be based on the delivery location. Can you ship direct to NV for pick up?
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  #13664  
Old 01-18-2022, 8:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 1911-CV View Post
"...I get lower CPR even if I take in Komiefornia tax". The tax you pay should be based on the delivery location. Can you ship direct to NV for pick up?
Ah! Good idea... I will call the hotel and see if they accept ammo shipments.


_
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  #13665  
Old 01-21-2022, 6:53 PM
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I have tried to attend this now for 2 years and work pops up. It looks like a good cause and a fun time. I have no affiliation and actually found it when researching FS classes. I'm tech challenged somif the link doesn't work the url is below.

https://theshootershangout.us9.list-...4&e=0dd2a1cc23

www.charitycourse.gives

I'm still going to try this year but magic 8ball says unlikely.
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  #13666  
Old 01-22-2022, 1:24 AM
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I heard there was a new email from Iggy today and its not good? Can anyone confirm?

Thanks
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  #13667  
Old 01-22-2022, 1:29 AM
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Default Front Sight Finished?

I heard there was a new email from Iggy today and its not good? Can anyone confirm?

Thanks
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  #13668  
Old 01-22-2022, 1:57 AM
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Looks like I won't be a FS member soon. New restructuring includes $50/month membership fee + $25/day instructor fee + must buy ammo on sight.
Too much for a place I visit once per year.
Love the training and facilities, but their business model sucks.
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  #13669  
Old 01-22-2022, 2:00 AM
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Holy cow… That is some major changes coming to FS. I just finished reading it and still digesting…
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  #13670  
Old 01-22-2022, 2:31 AM
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Well, I wondered when it was all going to implode. Piazza just killed it. All promises broken. I guess promising the moon with every promotion didn’t pan out. “Monthly Membership Fee”… Just simply EFF YOU! Maybe those guys who sued him all those years ago were right. It was fun while it lasted.
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  #13671  
Old 01-22-2022, 3:47 AM
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He's going to be spending some money on legal fees if this goes down. A lot of ppl will lose their memberships. That's not lifetime.
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  #13672  
Old 01-22-2022, 4:29 AM
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He figures “restructuring” is going to save him, and it might. 250,000 is a decent class action number, if that’s even possible now. He “restructured” back about ‘03 when he got sued. He’s out of his fargin mind if he thinks this will work. I’m predicting the end is nigh.
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  #13673  
Old 01-22-2022, 5:03 AM
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I'm reading the email now. Looks like this could be the beginning of the end for FS, or maybe I'm being a bit extreme in that thought. We will see!

All the new fees, forcing all students to buy their ammo directly from FS, forfeiture of your membership if you don't pay a new monthly membership fee, additional fees per day for private training, a daily facility fee, daily instructor/staff fee, etc. I don't think many are going to continue to go for all of this when you keep in mind that many people pay a lot already to get out there from all over the country. Many will now say it's no longer worth it, or they simply can't afford it, especially those who bring their entire families out there to train, which is a real shame because I personally thought it was awesome seeing families out there training together. I brought my buddy and his 13 year old son out there last time for a 4DDHG and they both had an absolutely incredibly time.

I've always wondered how the heck the place operated and made money aside from the revenue they generate from the brass and lead farming, since I did hear that brings in quite a lot of money. But if class attendance drops dramatically because of this restructuring the lead and brass income stream will also be reduced. Although I've only been attending classes at Front Sight for two years (thanks to a very generous CG'er who gifted me a 4-day certificate) I have loved the training, atmosphere and people I've met during the six classes I've attended over these last two years and have brought many friends with me over that timeframe and they have all had an amazing time there as well. But Ive always scratched my head and wondered how long this would go on the way it has. I'm no businessman, but their way of operating and being able to turn a profit never made sense to me, and the emails and offers seemed seemed too good to be true and the writing was on the wall as far as something like this eventually happening. I had contributed $100 a couple times to help out during when they were closed during the pandemic and used those 4-day certificates I received in exchange to bring out friends, and also contributed $100 for the legal fight. I always felt like I got my money's worth when I was out there in a class and thought it was a deal too good to be true.

Maybe that's Piazza's plan though, to make it so expensive and difficult to afford to take a class that people don't show up anymore, and he'll use that excuse to eventually shut the place down, essentially placing all the blame on the now non-existent members. He's already essentially placing the blame on the members themselves for the current state of affairs and essentially saying it's everyone else's fault that Front Sight is in the position they are in, taking no responsibility for making very poor business decisions.

What blows my mind is how you will lose your membership if you don't agree to the new monthly subscription fee. I get it, they have to make money, however he should have grandfathered in everyone who currently has a membership and added the monthly membership fee to all new memberships from this date forward. I would be very upset if I was someone who hasn't been out there in a while, doesn't receive the emails and one day decided to register for a class but found out that their membership was forfeited. I wonder if there will be some future "promotions" sent out that will allow people to reinstate their memberships for a "nominal fee" in emails that say something along the lines of, "act now as this promotion will be closing soon...this is my final offer...once it's closed it will be closed forever...", only to be followed by another email the next day, and the next...

I also foresee a slew of, "We want you back!" emails offering members to have their previously revoked memberships reinstated for a small fee because they will probably lose a ton of members because of this restructuring.Either way, this will create a giant cluster funk, and do not see this ending well. Front Sight was already sued in the past my members who shelled out a lot of money and what they were promised never came to fruition, and this just seems like another and even more confusing repeat of what's already happened.

I will admit it, I fell for it and drank the Kool-Aid and did the Knight upgrade last year around Thanksgiving, simply for the private training and being able to bring up to 9 people with me as part of my membership with no additional fees. That in and of itself was well worth the $2,000 upgrade. I have a Private that's been booked and scheduled in May with myself and 8 other buddies who are all already registered for the course, background checks done, etc.. One buddy has been dragging his feel about coming, and looks like he wont be going now because I think he may be subject to the new fee structure of $400/day. Luckily it's all been scheduled and booked well before this restructuring happened, but moving forward will be interesting to see how all this pans out.

The scumbag part of this all is you know Piazza knew this restructuring plan was coming, yet he still offered the Knight upgrade, knowing darn well he'd be stripping away all the promises made in the upgrade less than a month later, since the Knight upgrade was open until the end of last year. I've always defended Front Sight and defended them when someone who slander them or talk negatively about the training, etc. But this recent restructuring move really takes the cake.
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  #13674  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:13 AM
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I am also seeing the death spiral of FS through this morning's email. I do not have a huge problem with the MM and facility/staff/ ins fees but the last time I priced ammo from them, I could have paid for private classes. I am close enough to drive and always bring my own.
It is a bummer as I always learn so much there and have had great times.
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  #13675  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:14 AM
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I am also seeing the death spiral of FS through this morning's email. I do not have a huge problem with the MM and facility/staff/ ins fees but the last time I priced ammo from them, I could have paid for private classes. I am close enough to drive and always bring my own.
It is a bummer as I always learn so much there and have had great times.
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  #13676  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:19 AM
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He's gotten your attention now.

I have a feeling that there will be some backpedaling done on this in the near future.

Stay tuned for some other "exchange in abundance" offer that will somehow make everything more palatable.

Shrewd marketing as it is...

Last edited by acegunnr; 01-22-2022 at 6:30 AM..
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  #13677  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:26 AM
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Default Front Sight to charge annual fees to members now?

I don’t know if this has been known for a while but I got an email that said new rules would be in effect and all members need to pay $500 a year plus $125 per day and a few other rule changes.

It was a long email. I still think it’s worth it.

Anyone know the details on this? Too many members showing up for classes now?
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Old 01-22-2022, 6:29 AM
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Vinnie pretty much expressed my thoughts, so I won't bother to type it all out again...
I have a feeling this won't end well for Front Sight.
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  #13679  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:30 AM
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BadDogPSD BadDogPSD is offline
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Location: Reno/Tahoe
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Vinnie pretty much expressed my thoughts, so I won't bother to type it all out again...
I have a feeling this won't end well for Front Sight.
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  #13680  
Old 01-22-2022, 6:52 AM
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rodralig rodralig is offline
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Yikes! Good thing that I had private training scheduled in 2-weeks. This should be a good ROI for what I paid for when I upgraded (best to take it than reschedule). Then again - using ammo from the range! There prices are 3x the market!?!

I wonder if I have to pay for the staff and facility fees...

Hhhmmm... Good thing I did not take that Knights Upgrade offer a few weeks back! ... $400/day/person...?

And no more children's courses? Ooopppsss!!!

That said - I just looked at my account. All my Assets are now ZERO. *LOL* Not even a refund from the President1 membership.


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