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  #1  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:26 PM
Xplosiv3 Xplosiv3 is offline
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Default Question regarding AZ resident moving to CA with off-roster handguns.

I have a cousin whom is a resident of AZ and has zero ties to CA. She has 5 handguns not on the CA roster.

I am aware she can bring them assuming they are CA compliant and she has no intentions of selling them.

But what if she changes her mind once she is a resident of CA and decides to sell them even though she had no plans to sell them before moving to CA?

That is a hypothetical situation but I am just trying to find out how there are so many Sig P365s, Hellcats, Staccatos, and Gen 5 Glocks for sale on the Handgun Marketplace? Do that many LEOs/Active Duty Military members buy and sell them to private parties?

Last edited by Xplosiv3; 09-20-2022 at 5:30 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:32 PM
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Yes, she can sell them later if she decides that she doesn't want them.
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  #3  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:34 PM
one*eyed*jack one*eyed*jack is offline
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Selling them isnt a problem. She has 60 days to either register or sell them.
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:39 PM
Xplosiv3 Xplosiv3 is offline
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Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
Yes, she can sell them later if she decides that she doesn't want them.
I see. So I wonder if there are people that do this for a living. Move to AZ for 6 months or however long it takes to legally be able to buy a handgun there, cut ties with CA, move back to CA after they have a bunch of off roster guns with no intentions of selling them, change their mind about not selling them, and then make a huge profit.

Or are LEOs/Military not limited in terms of selling their firearms to private civilians. Or are they under the same rule, that they can buy the handguns with no intentions of selling them, but can legally change their mind once they have them and then sell them.
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:45 PM
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Unless the person is a CA FFL dealer, that person is limited by the amount of transfers and firearms they can legally conduct within a calendar year. [PC 26520]



Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 26520
(a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.

Penal Code 16730
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:
(1) The person conducts less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) The person sells, leases, or transfers no more than 50 total firearms per calendar year.
(b) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms.
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2022, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Unless the person is a CA FFL dealer, that person is limited by the amount of transfers and firearms they can legally conduct within a calendar year. [PC 26520]



Penal Code 26500
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless the person has been issued a license pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 26520
(a) Section 26500 does not apply to the infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(b) As used in this section, “infrequent” has the meaning provided in Section 16730.

Penal Code 16730
(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:
(1) The person conducts less than six transactions per calendar year.
(2) The person sells, leases, or transfers no more than 50 total firearms per calendar year.
(b) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms.
So "less than 6" must mean that 5 transactions are legal per year with up to 10 firearms per transaction?
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  #7  
Old 09-20-2022, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplosiv3 View Post
I see. So I wonder if there are people that do this for a living. Move to AZ for 6 months or however long it takes to legally be able to buy a handgun there, cut ties with CA, move back to CA after they have a bunch of off roster guns with no intentions of selling them, change their mind about not selling them, and then make a huge profit.

Yes, and some end up being called prison inmates and/or prohibited possessors.
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Old 09-20-2022, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplosiv3 View Post
So "less than 6" must mean that 5 transactions are legal per year with up to 10 firearms per transaction?
You can do up to 50 firearms in a single transaction (in which case you can only do that one transaction within the year).
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2022, 4:44 AM
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Off-roster handguns also make their way into the state through interstate intrafamilial transfer process.

A parent, grandparent, or adult child that is living out of state can gift an off-roster handgun to a CA resident as long as the transfer is done through a CA FFL.

If some time later the person decides they no longer want that off-roster gun, they can sell in CA through the PPT process.
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2022, 7:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
Off-roster handguns also make their way into the state through interstate intrafamilial transfer process.

A parent, grandparent, or adult child that is living out of state can gift an off-roster handgun to a CA resident as long as the transfer is done through a CA FFL.

If some time later the person decides they no longer want that off-roster gun, they can sell in CA through the PPT process.
Oh yeah. Forgot about that. I thought that was only for inheriting but makes sense.
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Old 09-22-2022, 10:16 AM
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Even if you do not sell more than the amount of guns permitted a non-dealer per annum, can't you still be tagged for conducting business as an unlicensed dealer? Time for the Jailhouse Rock.
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2022, 3:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Even if you do not sell more than the amount of guns permitted a non-dealer per annum, can't you still be tagged for conducting business as an unlicensed dealer? Time for the Jailhouse Rock.
I wouldn't think so. They give you a limit for a reason.
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  #13  
Old 09-28-2022, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplosiv3 View Post
I wouldn't think so. They give you a limit for a reason.
Wrong.

The limit is California law.

But a charge of the unlawful dealing in firearms without a license is usually prosecuted by the federal government for violation of the federal firearm license laws.

Those are very different laws.
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Wrong.

The limit is California law.

But a charge of the unlawful dealing in firearms without a license is usually prosecuted by the federal government for violation of the federal firearm license laws.

Those are very different laws.
You are on the money, as usual. I phrased my post as a question as I think I all too often pontificate. I seem to recollect a few years ago that the feds brought some prosectutions based on the sale of just a small number of guns. Either prosocutions or I read a publication advising that a prosecution could be based on a mere two or three firearms.
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Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2022, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
You are on the money, as usual. I phrased my post as a question as I think I all too often pontificate. I seem to recollect a few years ago that the feds brought some prosectutions based on the sale of just a small number of guns. Either prosocutions or I read a publication advising that a prosecution could be based on a mere two or three firearms.
Per BATFE and US AG, Federal prosecution can be based on, as little as, one transaction of two or more firearms.
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Last edited by Quiet; 09-29-2022 at 7:57 PM..
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  #16  
Old 09-30-2022, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Per BATFE and US AG, Federal prosecution can be based on, as little as, one transaction of two or more firearms.
Prosecuting and convicting are two very different animals. I copied this from an article on the problems with such.

Quote:
(A)n ordinary citizen who decides to sell a weapon or weapons, but does not fit the definition of a dealer, faces no such requirements under federal law. And a fundamental problem with the current law, according to critics, is that what constitutes a dealer is not all that clear-cut.

The statute says anyone “engaged in the business” of selling firearms requires a license. “Engaged in the business” means devoting “time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

The law states that it does not apply to someone engaged in only occasional gun sales or collectors or hobbyists adding to, or selling from, their personal collection.

The law places no set number of transactions that differentiates between a person engaged in the business and one who makes “occasional sales.”
While it is possible under some facts that one or two sales could lead to a conviction, without assuming any other facts (and not being a criminal law attorney, I would rather defend than prosecute such a case; especially difficult to convince a jury that a single transaction is in the regular course of business and is not an occasional sale.

I believe the article I quoted is three years old, and the law may have been updated. I haven't checked and feel free to research if there is any.
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This is neither legal advice nor a legal opinion.
Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.

Last edited by Chewy65; 09-30-2022 at 10:46 AM..
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