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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-21-2021, 9:28 AM
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Default Lessons learned

I sold off my Tiikka and Weatherby in 270 Win over a year ago with plans to buy the Barret Fieldcraft down the road. At the time it was still in production and I had a source for $1,800.00, decided to wait on buying. Today, its out of production and $2400 starting bid on GB. It reminds me of the times I looked at CZ75s when first imported for $299.00 and brand new Browning HP for around $650.00. Should have bought a truckload of them all. Anyway, what do you guys think would be a good lightweight substitute for Fieldcraft?
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  #2  
Old 02-21-2021, 9:39 AM
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Tikka's the schit in my book. I've had 5, and have shot groups of 1/4" or better with handloads @ 100 with all. All about what ya like/want though. Good luck.
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  #3  
Old 02-21-2021, 10:56 AM
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Christensen? Cooper maybe?

It's weird, the local store has both of those, Kimbers too, but it's a rural blue collar town. I can't imagine anyone here would buy a Christensen .338 Lapua, but this store has one, and ammo for it too.
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2021, 12:09 PM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunt View Post
I sold off my Tiikka and Weatherby in 270 Win over a year ago with plans to buy the Barret Fieldcraft down the road. At the time it was still in production and I had a source for $1,800.00, decided to wait on buying. Today, its out of production and $2400 starting bid on GB. It reminds me of the times I looked at CZ75s when first imported for $299.00 and brand new Browning HP for around $650.00. Should have bought a truckload of them all. Anyway, what do you guys think would be a good lightweight substitute for Fieldcraft?
As I understand how the Fieldcraft came to be, it was yet another failed attempt to mass produce the New Ultra Light Arms rifles. That effort failed, Barret bought up the remains of that effort and released the FieldCraft. If they ended production, doesn't look like it worked for them either.

My two cents.... IF you really want something like the Fieldcraft rifle, get the real deal. Go to the source and buy the real thing https://newultralightarms.com/ get the real deal. would seem there is a reason NULA is still around and the mass production clone efforts aren't.

I would buy before Melvin passes on and someone with a more bean counter mentality takes over.
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Old 02-21-2021, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
As I understand how the Fieldcraft came to be, it was yet another failed attempt to mass produce the New Ultra Light Arms rifles. That effort failed, Barret bought up the remains of that effort and released the FieldCraft. If they ended production, doesn't look like it worked for them either.

My two cents.... IF you really want something like the Fieldcraft rifle, get the real deal. Go to the source and buy the real thing https://newultralightarms.com/ get the real deal. would seem there is a reason NULA is still around and the mass production clone efforts aren't.

I would buy before Melvin passes on and someone with a more bean counter mentality takes over.
True statement about getting “the real thing”.
No recently mass produced firearm will ever equal the quality of what good rifle makers offer. Bottom line is that, if you want true quality and craftsmanship, you must pay for it.
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  #6  
Old 02-21-2021, 12:37 PM
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The fieldcraft is sub 6 lbs? Kimber might be closest option.
I've not tried one though they sound like an easy carry.
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  #7  
Old 02-22-2021, 2:01 PM
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Tikka T-3 Lite is my choice with a leupold 3.5X10X40 Duplex reticle Non-AO scope
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  #8  
Old 02-22-2021, 2:16 PM
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The new savage 110 ultralight is really nice and has a proof barrel.
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Old 02-22-2021, 4:28 PM
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Nothing wrong with the Sako 85 Classic. Quality, craftmanship, reliable and damn accurate.
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  #10  
Old 02-23-2021, 8:15 AM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Bottom line is that, if you want true quality and craftsmanship, you must pay for it.
This is a very valid point. When you look at Savage, Kimber, Tikka and such for "light" rifles, you are NOT looking at a rifle built ground up from raw materials to finished product to be a light rifle.

IF one actually wants a true light rifle, go to the actual manufactures of light rifles such as NULA. It will cost more, but you will get the real deal. If it costs more than you have on hand now, save a little longer, be patient.

One last piece of advice...before you spend on a true light rifle, see if you can shoot someone else's first. One of the lessons learned with Scout Rifles, which are "heavy" by comparison, is sub 7 pound rifles are not for everyone. The idea of light rifles and the experience of shooting one do not always match up.
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Old 02-23-2021, 9:15 AM
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these look like suitable and readily available commercial options:
https://www.springfield-armory.com/m...ypoint-rifles/

they come in a variety of calibers, the .308 for example runs around 6.5 lbs with carbon fiber barrel, the 6.5 Cr a few oz more.

that Sako sure is pretty though, albeit in lovely wood as opposed to polymer

Last edited by mtenenhaus; 02-23-2021 at 9:23 AM..
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Old 02-23-2021, 9:30 AM
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Default Lessons learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
This is a very valid point. When you look at Savage, Kimber, Tikka and such for "light" rifles, you are NOT looking at a rifle built ground up from raw materials to finished product to be a light rifle.



IF one actually wants a true light rifle, go to the actual manufactures of light rifles such as NULA. It will cost more, but you will get the real deal. If it costs more than you have on hand now, save a little longer, be patient.



One last piece of advice...before you spend on a true light rifle, see if you can shoot someone else's first. One of the lessons learned with Scout Rifles, which are "heavy" by comparison, is sub 7 pound rifles are not for everyone. The idea of light rifles and the experience of shooting one do not always match up.


I can't agree more. I


As an example, I have a tikka mag with a pencil fluted barrel and no brake. Bare (before rings and a scope) it comes in 5.9lbs. It's just not fun to shoot and spends most of its time in my Wyoming house. I had a Kimber that bare came in about 4.8 or 1lbs lighter, but with a brake, a slightly smaller caliber and was easier to shoot, but still, a beast, except the gun didn't shoot all that well (for me at least).


Just a couple of pounds in the right place can make all the difference. For the last few years my magnum running a 28oz carbon stock, carbon bolt knob, Ti-Action rail, CF barrel. So the base is light, but I choose the thicker, longer 24" (vs 22") m24 sized carbon barrel that adds a few ounces, a brake, a 3.4oz full-length rail, and a full feature FFP illuminated scope at 26oz (very light for a scope of this type) vs a lighter duplex for my long-range hunting. This builds a complete field-ready gun in the 9lbs range that really feels light even against a Tikka, but is a pleasure to shoot. Yes, I could have given up the scope, 3oz rail, and brake a shorter barrel and saved a pound. but the rifle would be much harder to shoot and not as capable for my style of hunting.



The point is in field trim it still packs light for a magnum, but it is easy to shoot and see the impact on the animal. It is a better solution at least for my hunting than just looking a min weight and the features I'd give up to save a pound.
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2021, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtenenhaus View Post
these look like suitable and readily available commercial options:
https://www.springfield-armory.com/m...ypoint-rifles/

they come in a variety of calibers, the .308 for example runs around 6.5 lbs with carbon fiber barrel, the 6.5 Cr a few oz more.

that Sako sure is pretty though, albeit in lovely wood as opposed to polymer
After using various rifles for a bunch of years, I’m now convinced that the better examples utilize integral bases and recoil lugs as a part of the action, ala Surgeon. Don’t know if that outfit makes a light version, but it eliminates the need for screws.
Ruger uses integral bases on a number of their stuff, but none is light weight though.
Overall, as has been stated prior, those ultra lightweight rifles are not pleasant to shoot. I personally don’t mind a heavy rifle, as the attributes of good handling and rugged construction come first.
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:42 AM
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I have a Tikka T3 Lite in 30-06, and I had a Kimber Montana in 25-06. Neither is particularly unpleasant to shoot..... the Kimber weighed 6.5 lbs ready to hunt with a Leupold 3-9x 40mm scope, and the Tikka weighs 7.3 pounds similarly configured.

I sold the Kimber, because it shot for crap... I could never get it to group very well, and I tried all kinds of powder, bullet, and charge combinations. The Tikka shoots very well, and load development was minimal with excellent results. Pretty much did a ladder with one bullet and one powder, and was done.
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Old 02-23-2021, 2:39 PM
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Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
I can't agree more. I


As an example, I have a tikka mag with a pencil fluted barrel and no brake. Bare (before rings and a scope) it comes in 5.9lbs. It's just not fun to shoot and spends most of its time in my Wyoming house. I had a Kimber that bare came in about 4.8 or 1lbs lighter, but with a brake, a slightly smaller caliber and was easier to shoot, but still, a beast, except the gun didn't shoot all that well (for me at least).


Just a couple of pounds in the right place can make all the difference. For the last few years my magnum running a 28oz carbon stock, carbon bolt knob, Ti-Action rail, CF barrel. So the base is light, but I choose the thicker, longer 24" (vs 22") m24 sized carbon barrel that adds a few ounces, a brake, a 3.4oz full-length rail, and a full feature FFP illuminated scope at 26oz (very light for a scope of this type) vs a lighter duplex for my long-range hunting. This builds a complete field-ready gun in the 9lbs range that really feels light even against a Tikka, but is a pleasure to shoot. Yes, I could have given up the scope, 3oz rail, and brake a shorter barrel and saved a pound. but the rifle would be much harder to shoot and not as capable for my style of hunting.



The point is in field trim it still packs light for a magnum, but it is easy to shoot and see the impact on the animal. It is a better solution at least for my hunting than just looking a min weight and the features I'd give up to save a pound.
This is what I have been preaching forever.
What good is a 6 pound rifle if you can't shoot it enough to like it and get comfortable with it?
I would rather hunt with a Calguns heavy rifle that is accurate than a I hike 15 miles on every hunt rifle that makes me flinch.
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Old 02-24-2021, 7:18 AM
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This is what I have been preaching forever.
What good is a 6 pound rifle if you can't shoot it enough to like it and get comfortable with it?
I came around to this point of view the hard way - by spending money and fooling around forever with a lightweight "mountain rifle", trying to get it to shoot. I was chasing the velocity rabbit, and was tickled to death (initially) with a "ready to hunt" rifle at just under 6.5 pounds. That turned to frustration pretty quickly as the rifle was only capable of shooting decent 1 shot groups.

The Tikka is just under a pound heavier, and shoots sub MOA all day long. I'm with you - a heavier rifle that shoots well is where it's at.
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Old 02-24-2021, 7:25 AM
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“Only accurate rifles are interesting.” - Colonel Townsend Whelen
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Old 02-24-2021, 7:34 AM
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You never know, I just bought a Fieldcraft that was hidden on the back of the shelf at a Sportsman's Warehouse.
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Old 02-24-2021, 7:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
I came around to this point of view the hard way - by spending money and fooling around forever with a lightweight "mountain rifle", trying to get it to shoot. I was chasing the velocity rabbit, and was tickled to death (initially) with a "ready to hunt" rifle at just under 6.5 pounds. That turned to frustration pretty quickly as the rifle was only capable of shooting decent 1 shot groups.

The Tikka is just under a pound heavier, and shoots sub MOA all day long. I'm with you - a heavier rifle that shoots well is where it's at.
I forgot to mention velocity earlier. When your after extremely lightweight rifles the easiest way to get there is to shorten up the barrel.
Short barrels hurt velocity and they also increase muzzle flash. Normally we never hear about muzzle flash but on a hunting rifle where dawn and dusk are usually the best times a huge muzzleflash obscures your vision.
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Old 02-24-2021, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
“Only accurate rifles are interesting.” - Colonel Townsend Whelen
And that statement right there has likely driven more folks to value the shooting of small groups over the learning of practical field skills wherein their firearms could be actually used. Not meant as a slam to those who enjoy simple target shooting from benches, etc., but if I for example, place so much importance on my CZ550 shooting very small groups, but I don’t have the skills to get it into action quick, shoot from hastily assumed field positions, in numerous conditions, what good is it for me? The answer to that comes from the Cape Buffalo who is about to charge from the bushes.
I don’t recall if T.W. ever expounded on his statement, and it was long ago, so I stand to be corrected if someone can direct my way to further study.
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Old 02-24-2021, 8:47 AM
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“Only accurate rifles are interesting.” - Colonel Townsend Whelen
Disagree. My buddy had an AR-15 with an auto-sear in it, was plenty interesting. Might have been accurate too for all we knew.
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Old 02-24-2021, 8:56 AM
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We all know what TW meant, so stop arguing.

What we may be forgetting is that he lived during a time when an accurate rifle was not exactly as common as they are today, and for far less money, even when we adjust for the dollar then to now.

And rifles can be so good today that it inspired Jeff Cooper once say, and I paraphrase, "If that rifle were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as it need be."
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Old 02-24-2021, 9:47 AM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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I think some competitions have greatly distorted people's understanding of what accuracy actually is in the real world. While making small groups on specific locations of a target is impressive in it's own context, and does contribute to general skills, that isn't actually real world accuracy.

Real world accuracy when it comes to hunting or self defence is about keeping shots in a zone. where in the zone the bullet impacts is irrelevant, all that matters is the shot is in that zone. it isn't about group size in the real world, it is about placing shots consistently, on demand, within the relevant zone of your target, and doing it under pressure. This was a lesson taught to me by a been there done that Marine and current large Metro police officer, after I as a young pup scoffed at the 2 to 3 inch MOA of his FAL. He told me to get a 4 x 4 piece of paper and place it over any part of my body... 3 MOA won't win a high power competition, but in the context of what FALs are built for, plenty accurate. It's not the groups size on the square range, it is the ability to place shots into the vital zone of your target constantly, under pressure, away from the bench.

shooting light rifles requires developing skills you may not have today, and it may require rethinking some things you thought you knew. Including what is an accuract rifle. what is acceptable accuracy for the target you are pursuing.

sub 7 pound rifles might not create groups like a 15 pound rifle anchored to a bench, but if they can keep shots in the appropriate sized zone of your intended target, on demand, inconstantly... the rifle is good to go.

Last edited by 1859sharps; 02-24-2021 at 9:52 AM..
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
I think some competitions have greatly distorted people's understanding of what accuracy actually is in the real world. While making small groups on specific locations of a target is impressive in it's own context, and does contribute to general skills, that isn't actually real world accuracy.

Real world accuracy when it comes to hunting or self defence is about keeping shots in a zone. where in the zone the bullet impacts is irrelevant, all that matters is the shot is in that zone. it isn't about group size in the real world, it is about placing shots consistently, on demand, within the relevant zone of your target, and doing it under pressure. This was a lesson taught to me by a been there done that Marine and current large Metro police officer, after I as a young pup scoffed at the 2 to 3 inch MOA of his FAL. He told me to get a 4 x 4 piece of paper and place it over any part of my body... 3 MOA won't win a high power competition, but in the context of what FALs are built for, plenty accurate. It's not the groups size on the square range, it is the ability to place shots into the vital zone of your target constantly, under pressure, away from the bench.

shooting light rifles requires developing skills you may not have today, and it may require rethinking some things you thought you knew. Including what is an accuract rifle. what is acceptable accuracy for the target you are pursuing.

sub 7 pound rifles might not create groups like a 15 pound rifle anchored to a bench, but if they can keep shots in the appropriate sized zone of your intended target, on demand, inconstantly... the rifle is good to go.

I am very glad that you went down this road. I could not agree more. Yes, I like to sit back with my Savage model 12 and shoot tiny groups. It is very enjoyable. But I don't discuss my approach to hunting accuracy because it is outside of the normally accepted thinking.

I hunt with my lever guns, lately it has been a 50's era Marlin 336 in 30-30. I did spend time at the bench dialing in a load. It was easy with this rifle. As far as testing for real world hunting this is what I do.

On range days when I take my plinkers I also include this Marlin. We have targets set up at random distances from 15 yards to 150 yards. When it is time to test my deer rifle I pick a target at random, say 75 yards, and then take a carefully aimed shot from a tree limb or something similar to what I would have in the field. I then follow that up with a second shot as fast as I can get on target. This two shot group constitutes my hunting accuracy. It accounts for cold barrel zero and my ability to fire an accurate follow up shot if needed.

Yes, what a rifle can do at 300 yards with slow controlled fire is interesting, but few deer or pig are going to stand there long enough for you to shoot a 10 shot group for score.

This has worked for me for 30 years.


Steve in N CA

Last edited by sghart; 02-24-2021 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 02-24-2021, 9:39 PM
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Howa is making a sub 5lb carbon stalker, with carbon fiber stock. Initially mini action, with short and long action coming soon.

https://www.legacysports.com/catalog...arbon-stalker/
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