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Optics, Mounts, Rails and Sights If it aims your firearm, post about it here.

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  #1  
Old 03-08-2019, 8:16 PM
Tommy Gun Tommy Gun is offline
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Default Vortex 6x24 HS-LR Elevation

So I took out the new rifle and scope and got it zeroed, installed my shims and tightened down the turret cap. Thought all is well and put it away till next range day.

I was thinking about possible longer distance and what capabilities the scope had and was wondering why advertise 60 plus MOA adjustment when you only get half of that. I know once you reach max you can use the sub tends on the reticle but seeing as what the purpose of the elevation turret is used for, would you ever need to go below your zero for a target when you achieve the same result just using the bipod as the fulcrum for below plane target?

Am I wrong that the turret cap wont give me the full 3 rotations as it shows a 0-1-2 rotation levels. Is using stupid high rings thier idea of what 60 MOA means. Don't get me wrong, it's on a .308 and right now I can reach about 950yds just turret elevation, that's fine, but still begs the question.
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Old 03-08-2019, 8:29 PM
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What kind of base are you mounting your scope on? Do you have a base that's cants down like 20 MOA? If not this could be what you need to get full use out of your scope adjustments.
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Old 03-08-2019, 8:50 PM
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It's a MDT TAC21 Chassis with 20 MOA full length rail. I'll get what I want in distance just fine. Just wanted to pose the question on this scopes elevation.

My Burris XTR gets 56 MOA sitting on an RPR 20 MOA rail as a comparison. But I also use the XTR Sig rings which helped with that.
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Old 03-08-2019, 9:26 PM
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you need to look at the numbers on the turrets.
each click equals 1/4 moa. each number equals 1 moa .

now how many moa of elevation do you have ?
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:27 AM
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The advertised 60 MOA of mechanical adjustment is total top to bottom, stop to stop. Thats on any scope. So when you install a scope ideally your zero falls into dead center of that 60, in this case 30. (the reason why this is ideal is because your erector tube inside of the scope is now centered in the outer scope tube, and your looking through the center of the glass) So now you have 30 up and 30 down available. Yes 30 MOA down is pretty damn usless. So you add a canted base (20 MOA offset) to now drop your zero down. Now you have 10 MOA down and 50 MOA up. Again this is all ideal, your setup may vary slightly from that.

Now, I'm curious about your total setup, because I have the same scope on my .308 and I have enough elevation to reach 1200 yards. But I'm also pushing a 178 ELD-M at 2700 FPS out of a 26" Krieger barrel. So what are you shooting? You may not be that far off of ideal.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:43 PM
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Its just a Tikka T3 Ultralight in a MDT TAC21 Chassis. So it already came with 20MOA rail. I bought Burris XTR Rings (not the signature ones) and they are labeled High so its 1.35 inch I think. Worked perfectly for the clearance I wanted. Right now with the 50mm bell and Vortex Scope Caps there is like an 1/8" of clearance. So because it sits so close to the rail but not the bore I thought I would have to dial down to zero which I did but not that much. Right now zeroed at 100yds its Zero Stopped at the 1 rotation mark and I have 38 MOA elevation up now. Based on my data that's good to about 1000yds before using the subtends on the reticle. I'm cool with that, that's about 1400yds using the reticle if I wanted. Just wondering why put it at a stop gap of one entire elevation.

Recipe:
168 gr .308 ELD-M
42.2 IMR4064
2648 f/s @12ft
.07 off the lands (Tikka has super long chamber)
CCI LRP
Hornady Brass

Love the chassis...Old stocked rifle would kill your shoulder, hunting rifle not necessarily meant to shoot as much as you do at the range.
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Old 03-11-2019, 9:08 PM
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Run some numbers in your ballistic calculator using the 178 ELD or 175 SMK. Run your speed at 2600. See if you can stretch your distance a bit. I also bet you can run your loads a bit hotter and faster.

But your right in the same spot Iím in with the same scope.
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Old 03-12-2019, 7:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
So I took out the new rifle and scope and got it zeroed, installed my shims and tightened down the turret cap. Thought all is well and put it away till next range day.

I was thinking about possible longer distance and what capabilities the scope had and was wondering why advertise 60 plus MOA adjustment when you only get half of that. I know once you reach max you can use the sub tends on the reticle but seeing as what the purpose of the elevation turret is used for, would you ever need to go below your zero for a target when you achieve the same result just using the bipod as the fulcrum for below plane target?

Am I wrong that the turret cap wont give me the full 3 rotations as it shows a 0-1-2 rotation levels. Is using stupid high rings thier idea of what 60 MOA means. Don't get me wrong, it's on a .308 and right now I can reach about 950yds just turret elevation, that's fine, but still begs the question.
Most scopes are designed to zero near the middle of the elevation adjustments because having the reticle in the middle of the optics plane will put it into the part of the scope that is at its best optical quality. When your reticle has been dialed to the extreme, whether in windage or elevation, the reticle will be in the part of the scope where the optical quality is most compromised. This is just the nature of optics. Of course, on the best quality scopes, the optical performance will still be very good with little to no discernible degradation in optical quality even at the extreme edge of the glass.

Since most people don't shoot at extended distances, this is usually not an issue. For those who do, you can see why they favor higher end (and thus more expensive) scopes. The have the option of either holding over the necessary elevation or putting the scope in a sloped mount that will recover the bottom end of the elevation adjustments and put your zero closer to the edge of the glass rather the the center. If they choose the latter, then that higher optical quality is a nice thing to have in your scope.
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Last edited by Mute; 03-13-2019 at 7:32 AM..
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Old 03-12-2019, 7:51 AM
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The specifications say that you have a Max 65 MOA elevation adjustment, not 32.5 up and 32.5 down. If you go with the Precision Extended Cantalever 20 MOA mount, it would give you 20 more MOA, to a total of 85 MOA of elevation adjustment.

https://vortexoptics.com/precision-e...mm-20-moa.html
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  #10  
Old 03-12-2019, 9:16 PM
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Default Vortex 6x24 HS-LR Elevation

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
The specifications say that you have a Max 65 MOA elevation adjustment, not 32.5 up and 32.5 down. If you go with the Precision Extended Cantalever 20 MOA mount, it would give you 20 more MOA, to a total of 85 MOA of elevation adjustment.

https://vortexoptics.com/precision-e...mm-20-moa.html


The scope has 65 MOA of mechanical travel. Please tell us how adding a 20 MOA canted base makes the scope now have 85 MOA of mechanical travel. Elevation means up or down vertical travel. Planes climb to an elevation, then come down from it.

Go back and read my first post in this thread. If you donít understand it, Iíll explain it again. But donít post absolute false information.

Last edited by NorCalFocus; 03-12-2019 at 9:19 PM..
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  #11  
Old 03-12-2019, 10:05 PM
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Because that's what adding a 20 MOA mount does, it gives 20 more MOA in elevation. The OP should start off having 65 MOA, not half of that, if not, the OP is setting up the scope wrong, or the rifle isn't true. Nothing false, post what you think that you know. Call Vortex, they can tell you, I have one.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:48 PM
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It's not set up wrong. The HSLR has 0-1-2 rotational markings. Because it sits low to the rail but about 2.5 inches from the bore I expected the dial to need to go further down. The zero stop shims don't impede the travel, the elevation spindle inside the turret does. I removed the shims and would not seat further down to the 0 mark, it set at the 1.

My Burris XTII 5x25 after zero was able to zero stop and still have 50MOA of elevation. My issue was that the spindle in the Vortex Elevation turret impedes the full seating of the cap.

And again 38 MOA elevation only is fine, it's more of a bad design.
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Old 03-13-2019, 5:15 AM
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A bit off topic but I have 2 of these, you’ll be much less frustrated using the reticle than dialing.
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Old 03-13-2019, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Elevation means up or down vertical travel. Planes climb to an elevation, then come down from it.
Maybe he needs a visual explanation. This is a 65MOA ladder with a 20MOA mount....
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Old 03-13-2019, 6:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
Its just a Tikka T3 Ultralight in a MDT TAC21 Chassis. So it already came with 20MOA rail.
It does seem odd with a 20MOA rail that you only have 38MOA of travel left in your scope.
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Old 03-13-2019, 6:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
Because that's what adding a 20 MOA mount does, it gives 20 more MOA in elevation. The OP should start off having 65 MOA, not half of that, if not, the OP is setting up the scope wrong, or the rifle isn't true. Nothing false, post what you think that you know. Call Vortex, they can tell you, I have one.


Here this video explains it about as clear as day.

https://youtu.be/hwl9rzASOfU

A canted base does not change the scopes mechanical ability. If I have a scope that from dead bottom stop to dead top stop has 260 clicks (65, 1/4 MOA clicks) how does mounting that scope on a canted base change the scopes ability to move past those 260 clicks?
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  #17  
Old 03-13-2019, 6:38 AM
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It is diffcult to understand your problem, but that scope is intended to be used by dialing in long range engagements. I think you might need to replace the turret cap with a custom cap:

http://kentonindustries.com/custom-turrets/vortex
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Old 03-13-2019, 6:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Here this video explains it about as clear as day.

https://youtu.be/hwl9rzASOfU

A canted base does not change the scopes mechanical ability. If I have a scope that from dead bottom stop to dead top stop has 260 clicks (65, 1/4 MOA clicks) how does mounting that scope on a canted base change the scopes ability to move past those 260 clicks?
It doesn't, the one that I posted will give you 20 more MOA, but I won't explain to you why, stay stuck, hint, it doesn't add clicks.
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Old 03-13-2019, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
It doesn't, the one that I posted will give you 20 more MOA, but I won't explain to you why, stay stuck, hint, it doesn't add clicks.


You didnít even watch the video and claim Iím stuck? In your first post you said that adding a 20 MOA rail gives you 85 MOA of adjustment. Now your agreeing with me saying it doesnít.

Explain to all of us how changing the turret cap is going to fix this guys problem.

It is not a hard issue to understand, if you understand how scopes work in relation to the rifle.

Stop posting BS, completely false information. Others may want to learn correctly.
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Old 03-13-2019, 7:29 AM
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You have an AR platform and using high rings. The correct mount for the AR platform is the one that I posted. If you have a bolt action rifle and a large objective lens high rings are appropriate. Post a picture of the mounted scope.
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Old 03-13-2019, 8:36 AM
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Here you go folks, pics of my set up.

Clearance.jpg
Cap.jpg
Profile.jpg


For the last time, I am fine with the 38 MOA adjustment, with reticle I can reach 1400yds. 1400 yds is well beyond what I care to shoot .308 to anyways. Its about the design of the scope.
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Old 03-13-2019, 9:26 AM
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Nice looking rifle, and setup, but they all say it isn't for the AR platform.

On Vortex Nation they say that if you want you scope to act properly use the

When you mounted the scope it should have almost been a perfect if not perfect bore sight. The scope should have been set at the factory to it's lowest setting to allow a 65 MOA of adjustment from the start. If you had to crank it up half way to get a 100/200 yard zero something is wrong. You can call Vortex Customer support or ask Vortex Nation what the soultion is.

If you are a tightwad, considered this sport model:

https://vortexoptics.com/pro-extende...unt-30-mm.html

Look at the reviews at the bottom of the above link, here's the first one:

Quote:
This Viper extended mount is exactly what you need for mounting your optic to an AR platform rifle or a rifle like the RPR. I have used a bunch of these mounts now and I am happy with all of them. They all appear to be well made and feel very sturdy. I have noticed no shift in the scope/mount or in zero on any of the rifles I'm using these on. The mounting height is spot on for proper eye alignment on my guns I've used them on. They simply work well and get the job done. Not to mention they're made in the US and they're under $150! It's a great mount to put that great glass in. If I need more of this style of mount I will buy more again for sure.
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Old 03-13-2019, 9:47 AM
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In regards to the AR platform:
Quote:
Available in several different sizes with options for 20 MOA cant. These extended cantilevers are designed for mounting scopes with a forward location, providing correct eye relief and head placement. The cantilever ring mount positions the center of the riflescope tube at a height of 1.574Ē (40mm) from the base.
https://vortexoptics.com/precision-e...mm-20-moa.html.

Look at the reviews at the above link too, at the bottom.

From Vortex Nation:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture+_2019-03-13-10-36-11~2.jpg (93.9 KB, 47 views)
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
It's not set up wrong. The HSLR has 0-1-2 rotational markings. Because it sits low to the rail but about 2.5 inches from the bore I expected the dial to need to go further down. The zero stop shims don't impede the travel, the elevation spindle inside the turret does. I removed the shims and would not seat further down to the 0 mark, it set at the 1.

My Burris XTII 5x25 after zero was able to zero stop and still have 50MOA of elevation. My issue was that the spindle in the Vortex Elevation turret impedes the full seating of the cap.

And again 38 MOA elevation only is fine, it's more of a bad design.
How did you get the 2.5" sight over bore? Just a guess? To get the most accurate number, measure your bolt with a pair of calipers, then divide that number by two. Do the same for your scope tube. Then measure from the top of the bolt to the bottom of the scope tube. Add all 3 numbers together, thats your sight over bore height.

The higher you mount your scope over the bore, the more down your zero will be, thusly leaving you more up travel.

I also just checked my HSLR, with the zero stops, my line is just shy of being all the way to the 0 rev mark. I have just over 48 MOA of travel in my scope.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
For the last time, I am fine with the 38 MOA adjustment
You should have more, but you don't for some reason. Is there a possibility the rail is not 20MOA? However, it will work for you in the time being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
I bought Burris XTR Rings (not the signature ones) and they are labeled High so its 1.35 inch I think.
You're fine, optimal height for AR optics is between 1.30" to 1.50" and you have the clearance needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
It is diffcult to understand your problem, but that scope is intended to be used by dialing in long range engagements. I think you might need to replace the turret cap with a custom cap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
Nice looking rifle, and setup, but they all say it isn't for the AR platform.
I know you are trying to help, but these suggestions are not correct nor needed.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 03-13-2019 at 1:04 PM..
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Old 03-13-2019, 2:00 PM
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I guessed. I'll measure when I get home. And so I think because the scope sits lower to the bore in a sense I didn't have to dial down so much.

And no thanks on having 40 MOA scope mount/rail. I doubt I have a unicorn vortex and its just they way it is. If I really care that much I'll just get higher mounts.
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Old 03-13-2019, 5:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
It's not set up wrong. The HSLR has 0-1-2 rotational markings. Because it sits low to the rail but about 2.5 inches from the bore I expected the dial to need to go further down. The zero stop shims don't impede the travel, the elevation spindle inside the turret does. I removed the shims and would not seat further down to the 0 mark, it set at the 1.

My Burris XTII 5x25 after zero was able to zero stop and still have 50MOA of elevation. My issue was that the spindle in the Vortex Elevation turret impedes the full seating of the cap.

And again 38 MOA elevation only is fine, it's more of a bad design.
Are you saying that even with the shims removed, you're at the bottom of your travel but the indicator is showing your scope is in the second revolution mark? Are you able to get the full 65 moa of travel with the shims removed?
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Old 03-14-2019, 3:48 PM
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The way that I understand it is that the zero is in the middle of the 65 MOA. Like when the scope is canted so much, that the first zero shot will be high, in this case so high, that half of the 65 MOA in elevation adjustment was used to get up to the POI. I think the question is, [does the 65 MOA of rated elevation equate to 32.5 up, and 32.5 down?

Last edited by tony270; 03-14-2019 at 4:20 PM.. Reason: Typing
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Old 03-14-2019, 5:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Gun View Post
So I took out the new rifle and scope and got it zeroed, installed my shims and tightened down the turret cap. Thought all is well and put it away till next range day.

I was thinking about possible longer distance and what capabilities the scope had and was wondering why advertise 60 plus MOA adjustment when you only get half of that. I know once you reach max you can use the sub tends on the reticle but seeing as what the purpose of the elevation turret is used for, would you ever need to go below your zero for a target when you achieve the same result just using the bipod as the fulcrum for below plane target?

Am I wrong that the turret cap wont give me the full 3 rotations as it shows a 0-1-2 rotation levels. Is using stupid high rings thier idea of what 60 MOA means. Don't get me wrong, it's on a .308 and right now I can reach about 950yds just turret elevation, that's fine, but still begs the question.
You have the wrong mounting system, anyway here's a video that tells you why your platform needs the cantalever mount.

Here's the video that explains how to select rings and mounts, from Vortex:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9taVV5Evl38
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Old 03-14-2019, 6:13 PM
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It's not the wrong mounting system. Let's say I bought the MDT ESS where I had to buy a 20 MOA mounting rail for my action, I would have a closer to bore mount which would mean even less elevation needed to zero, in fact probably have to raise it past the "halfway" point.

This whole thread is about the design of the scope. The metal spindle inside the turret is impeding the ability to go all the way down....by design. Even without shims, because the shims don't stop the cap, it is a tension system for when the top metal spindle groove is stopped by the shims. If you look on YouTube for this scope they all set up at or around the 1, even the 4-14 option seats at the 1 or 2 of 5 Mark's. Even testimony from people here state they have the same issue.

If I buy this cantilever mount I would have to put it on backwards, thus raising the scope "upwards" to be able to lower the elevation spindle so it would mount lower, you understand that right?

Yes the TAC 21 has 20 MOA rail already, that along with the 1.35 inch rings just brought it closer to the bore for POA. Cantilever mounts, either 0 or 20 MOA are meant for flat zero MOA AR rails, generally.

This was a question about design and judging by responses it's working as intended. This scope is a type of budget high end scope, prob not meant for serious long range which is why I got it for a .308 as it's only good too 1k maybe 1400 yds... maybe. I would not have this scope for a 338 lupua. My Burris seems to have the design I'm looking for where no matter what after I zeroed it I was able to ha e 2.25 rotations for about 56 MOA.
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Old 03-15-2019, 2:00 PM
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Yeah I think I know what you are complaining about. The advertised info says that the turret knob turns a total of 3 revaluations, then when you setup the scope using the CRS shims, and then after putting the knob back on, it doesn't go back to 1, but instead of 3 revaluations, you end up with 2. The shims are stopping the knob at the zero that you zeroed at, if the knob went back past the shims to the 1st revaluation (the start) you would loose your zero.

It is not a bad design, just indicative to the CRS design, you need more bells and whistles, $$$$ .
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