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  #1  
Old 04-24-2019, 11:23 AM
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Default Weighing brass within 1.0gr vs just headstamp...?

I know volume is the best way but I want to know if anyone has tested weighing vs headstamp affect on grouping. I sorted my 223 brass by 90.x 91.x 92.x 93.x 94.x etc and will shoot them one by one. Figuring the external dimensions are similar since sized then if weight is the same they should be pretty close right? I know some people sort by headstamp but when I weigh matching headstamps they can be a few grains apart. I just checked my Winchester brass it it was over 2.0gr would just a few I checked. My GFL is even farther apart. I'm shooting paper at 100 yards and steel out to 600 yards so maybe none of it matters. Figured brass at least within .5gr should help. I'm still a newbie so be gentle

Edit: I should test my sorting to see how the case volume varies within a grouping of like the 92.x for example and see how much it varies. It would be interesting to see how close they are. I saw a youtube where a guy says alcohol is better since water has air and tiny bubbles. That being the case maybe it's more practical to test volume with actual powder since we'll be loading it with actual powder. Depending on how the powders' fall together I imagine that can change. A high frequency vibration would probably help settle them to maximum and now I've reached the "overthingking limits" =P

Edit 2: found this in another discussion

Weighing them, or sorting by water capacity may not mean diddly.

Many years ago I shot the Firewalker HBR match in Colorado. Shooters were doing some or all of the same things mentioned here. Eric Ambler picked up six pieces of range 308 brass the afternoon before the match, FL sized it, trimmed to length, turned the case necks to fit his tight neck chamber, and won the match. IIRC, he had one each of Federal, Win, Rem, DWM, and an LC Match.

Shooters were mostly using FL 308 Win with what was then termed a "tight neck turkey" with .001" clearance on a loaded round. 39-43gr of H4895 and Sierra 150gr MK's.

That winter I learned that Sierra used three point up dies for their Match King line up in .30 caliber, and fed them all into a tub. Vern Johnson Sr out of Portland showed me a neat trick. He and his son, and I bought 10,000 bulk bullets, and sat down with the old Sinclair hex head tool that fit dial calipers with slots. The three point up heads had .014" difference in base to ogive lengths.
We ended up with bullets that we gauged at .000", .009", and .014" base to ogive length. We just sorted the shortest ones and set them at .000", then referenced the other two from that zero.

The big thing it taught me, was setting my jump to .010" with unsorted bullets would result in bullets that were .010" jump, .003" jump, and the long ones jammed .004" into the rifling. Testing the next week, Mr Oehler showed 16fps more from the .000" to the .009, and another14fps to the .014" ones.

If you have good brass, LAPUA as a standard; the HBR matches at 100/200/300yds might not show much improvement in scores from prepping them VS out of the box.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-24-2019 at 12:27 PM..
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofois View Post
I know some people sort by headstamp but when I weigh matching headstamps they can be a few grains apart.
Unless you factor that they are exactly the same length. Trim length of a couple thou can throw off weight by a grain or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofois View Post
The big thing it taught me, was setting my jump to .010" with unsorted bullets would result in bullets that were .010" jump, .003" jump, and the long ones jammed .004" into the rifling.
This statement doesn't make sense. The bullet seater contacts the projectile close to the ogive. Unless these Sierra "Matchkings" had fluctuating ogive shapes, I'm pretty skeptical of the variable bullet jump caused by base-to-ogive length differences.

I could be wrong though.
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:15 PM
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Yeah I'm not sure what they guy meant about that but I thinking he was just talking about the variation in bullet shape causing the ogive to be at a different point and then if he tried to size them by ogive some of the tips were too long but not sure. His bullets would be pretty jacked up if the shape was that far off. I was thinking about the trimmed length. Since sized it would be 1.740 vs 1.750 ish so about a hundreth of case mouth. I'm thinking it would be more like a tenth of a grain or two. If 2 grains then we would be shaving a 50th of the metal away when we trim but it's maybe 2 100ths of an inch and since it is almost 2 inches and the amount of metal is from the smallest portion it's probably more like 1000th or 2 but I'd have to test that.

Edit:

I'll weigh one before and size it and trim then weigh after and repost.
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:32 PM
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As a newbie ,its probably not worth the time sorting,factoring in your skill level and rifle.
Not saying that some small gain cant be achieved,just may not be worth the time invested.
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Old 04-24-2019, 3:43 PM
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Reporting back the results...drum roll please

Cleaned the case was 99.98 with primer, 1.761" length which probably means nothing with the primer.

Sized and deprimed 97.06gr at 1.7665"

Trimmed 96.40gr at 1.731"

.66gr difference with .0355" trimmed off material

I got the longest case I could find and the one of the heavier ones to yield the most difference and trimmed it shorter than I should have. I imagine it's half that in difference at the most all of the time since this was almost 4 100ths. Maybe a 3rd of a grain is what we'd find in variation of cases and more like a 6th of a grain with the ones that are identical but with different trim lengths. It's not for me to guess the affect it would have. It might have more of an affect with the length since it's grabbing more or less of the bullet. Highpower I'm sure is right. It's just such an easy thing to do so I sorted them. Figured it couldn't hurt and it's free.
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Old 04-24-2019, 4:03 PM
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redid the test for a more normal comparison:

Sized and deprimed 94.62gr 1.757" length

Trimmed some more 94.30gr 1.744" length

Same case so the difference was .013" removed and weight .32gr less. The 2-3 grains I'm seeing in matching headstamps must be a quite a bit of material. That still doesn't mean that much till I compare the internal volume of the matching cases vs the internal volume of the cases sorted within 1gr mixed brass.
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Old 04-24-2019, 4:07 PM
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When I reload for 308 Win, I used Federal match brass or LC match brass. When I prep the case, resize, deprime, trim, case mouth prep, primer pocket cut, etc, and weighed the brass, all came within a grain or so. Even 2 grains is not significant. Once I found out that it did not make much difference, I never weighted my brass since.

I just use the same lot brass.
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Old 04-24-2019, 5:49 PM
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OK, trimming or case length has very little to do with weight variance. Thanks for looking into that. I had expected more variation. And as noted above, almost no relevance in the grand scheme of accuracy.
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Old 04-24-2019, 8:43 PM
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I would imagine the same lot of brass even not match would be within 2 grains so no need to sort by weight but that's kinda different than my question of weighing the brass that is from 100 different lots. With 2000 cases I don't want to spend days finding the same headstamp let alone hoping its the same lot of the same brand. I'm sure it doesn't even matter if mixed brass 3 grains apart but since my mixed brass ranges from 90.X to 103.X then it sounds like I should weigh it and since I'm weighing it I might as well sort it by 1gr since I'm already separating it. Or does 10gr not matter?
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Old 04-24-2019, 9:49 PM
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I got my matching headstamp winchester and weighed a few. They aren't match so maybe that's why the weights varied so much. The headstamp looked identical but could still be different lots.

Primed 94.80gr 1.7515 Water 124.72 Volume 29.92
Primed 98.70gr 1.7575 Water 128.62 Volume 29.92
Primed 95.86gr 1.7500 Water 126.04 Volume 30.18
Primed 99.16gr 1.7590 Water 128.96 Volume 29.80

The first case had a dent but still came out the same as the second. That's probably what kept it identical. If we throw it out there is a slight increase in capacity with the one that is then the lightest even though it is the shortest. It's not even half a grain more in capacity even though it over 3gr less in weight. I read brass is 8 times heavier than powder so if I take the difference of 3.3gr from the 3rd to the 4th case divide by 8 I get a .41gr difference is possible powder capacity. When I subtract the 3rd case from the 4th case's volume I get .38gr difference in capacity. I would imagine if the 3rd case was the same length it could be almost identical to the brass weight difference when converted to grain weight. I'm sure it doesn't mean jack diddly since half a grain of volume doesn't mean anything I think.

I'll test my original question about mixed brass of the same weight and see.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:25 PM
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I just did random 92.x sorted brass. It looks like when you sort by weight you end up with probably similar brass. I tried to get different headstamps that at least looked somewhat different but they are all lake city I'm sure military brass. I got from the lowest to the highest weight within the 92.x and here is the results.

Primed 94.98 1.758 Water 125.18 Volume 30.2
Primed 95.04 1.753 Water 125.24 Volume 30.2
Primed 95.58 1.754 Water 125.78 Volume 30.2
Primed 95.86 1.750 Water 125.98 Volume 30.12

The heaviest one was the shortest which might explain the -.08 difference but wow they are literally match cases which just sorting by weight. I tested matched cases with varying weights which were so very close and now cases just sorted by weight which is probably just a really fast way to end up with the same company/headstamp and also the same weight at the same time. I'll check one of my other bins to see if I can try to get other companies that are within a grain but for sure have different manufacturers. Either way it would seem sorting by weight is great since at least you end up with the same brand and same weight.

Edit:
I looked through my 91.x bin and it was all various LC brass so the results will probably be the same. I guess I could get one LC from each bin and compare but I think it will be the same as the different weighted Winchester. I can't see a better way that just weighing and tossing in the appropriate bin and then just shoot them. It's quick and free and you end up with match brass.

You know what I will do. I'll get a Winchester and look for a similar weighted LC and compare. If I'm lucky and find maybe another brand.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-24-2019 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:25 PM
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Ok I've come full circle now and looks like sorting by headstamp and by weight might mean nothing.

94.x gr brass

Primed 97.62 1.761 Water 127.60 Volume 29.98
Primed 97.94 1.7475Water 127.70 Volume 29.76
Primed 98.20 1.752 Water 128.12 Volume 29.92
Primed 98.28 1.7605Water 128.26 Volume 29.98
Primed 98.02 1.760 Water 128.02 Volume 30.00
Primed 98.02 1.7625Water 128.02 Volume 30.00 Winchester

I was lucky enough to get an LC and a Winchester of the same weight and their volume is identical.

The first test with Winchester of varying weights had varying volumes.

The weighted brass ended up being LC so ended up being identical regardless of batch.

The 94.x batch with one Winchester also looked to be just about identical. Ironically the Winchester of same weight was identical also. All the others were different headstamps but all looked like LC since no brand or said lc.

Of all tested the lowest volume was 29.76gr from a 94.52gr case without a primer.

The highest volume was 30.2gr of from varying 92.x weighted cases.

The max difference so far is .44gr. Is that enough to even care about at 1000 yards? 600 yards? I'm sure not 100 yards.

The next test will be to find the 103gr one and the 89.x ones and see if there is even 1gr of difference. Maybe 1gr means something in volume.

It would seem like anything up to 94.x doesn't need to be matching headstamp or weight.

Last edited by Geofois; 04-25-2019 at 12:42 AM..
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:52 AM
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I'm trying to find a discussing with case volumes being tested and only found one. The 308 seems more relevant since the 223 comparison is almost the same case volume for different brass. From the chart you can see almost the same heavy 308 cases yield the biggest difference of 45fps but the lowest weight case and the heaviest case only had a 9fps difference. It almost seems like you can't count on weight being an issue or headstamp. The 308 had a 20gr difference in weights. I suppose that could be like 223 having a 10gr weight difference.

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Old 04-26-2019, 10:00 AM
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dang, ain't nobody got time for that!
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:33 AM
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Isn't that a segment on The Daily Show, "Ain't nobody got time for that".

So I put my ocd hat back on and did a case that was 89.48 and one that was 100.10 with identical 1.760" lengths.

Primed 92.42 Water 123.08 Volume 30.66
Primed 103.02 Water 132.40 Volume 29.38

Difference of 1.28gr capacity. When divided by 10.6 you get .1207gr difference per 1gr of case weight.

When I did the average of the 92.x and the 94.x cases and subtracted the avg for them I got .24gr exactly so that's .12gr per 1gr of case weight.

I read somewhere brass is 8 times heavier than powder so when I divide 1gr of brass by 8 = .125gr of powder to take up the same amount of space.

It probably doesn't mean anything. I only found one article where they posted the weights and capacities of 308 and 223 cases and it looked like you just have to shoot them to see velocity and there didn't seem to be a correlation to weight. It doesn't looking like sorting by headstamp or weight really mean anything. I think the same article I got this from had a champion pick up random range brass of all headstamps and clean them up yada yada and win the contest. Unless 1gr of capacity will repeatedly show a major difference is velocity it might mean something at 1000 yards.


Last edited by Geofois; 04-26-2019 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofois View Post
Unless 1gr of capacity will repeatedly show a major difference in velocity it might mean something at 1000 yards.
Under 600yds you will not see any appreciable difference in 223 loadings. 600yd slow-fire loads using 80gr projectiles will be segregated by headstamp only. Everything else is mixed brass.
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