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  #1  
Old 10-07-2021, 5:51 AM
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Default if i sell a firearm to another state does it count against my dros

if i sell a firearm to another state does it count against my 5 dros limit?

Going to list a lot of mine shortly and wanted to know?
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2021, 6:11 AM
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well considering it would not go through the DROS system if it were out of state, I don't see how California would even know you sold the firearm. also you might try posting the question in the correct forum, no one in OT has any firearms
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Old 10-07-2021, 6:56 AM
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The real question is will free states do any private business with CA.
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Old 10-07-2021, 7:50 AM
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TMK there is no strict limit on sales before being considered a dealer.

If doing a lot of turnaround, specifically selling off-roster firearms, withing CA, after brief ownership, then expect some friction.

DROS wouldn't be the issue as far as I can tell. You do send ID with the firearm though. Whether there's some vehicle that that gets reported back to CA, I don't know. I rather doubt it though.
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Old 10-07-2021, 7:57 AM
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Well the state may know about the sale if you complete a “No longer in Possession” form with the CA BOF.

Otherwise, if you don’t file it, they wouldn’t know you sold your firearm in a different state.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:11 AM
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Short answer: No.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:12 AM
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There is not a dros OOS
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
Well the state may know about the sale if you complete a “No longer in Possession” form with the CA BOF.
The form is useless it does not remove it from your list. Since out of state transfers have to go through an FFL just keep where it went for your records.

I disagree on the infreq law. If you are doing 6+ and 60 guns year after year then maybe you are a dealer. If you do 12 sales and got rid of all your guns in one year because you're broke and need the money I don't see how they could call you a dealer.

Penal Code section 16730:

(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:

(1) The person conducts less than six transactions per calendar year.

(2) The person sells, leases, or transfers no more than 50 total firearms per calendar year.

(b) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms.
Notice that it says "both". So you must be both to be "infrequent". If you six or more transactions per year OR you do more than 50 firearms in a year, then you're not infrequent.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:18 AM
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Thanks everyone. Since I'm an FFL03 plus COE holder I can ship long guns directly to person in other states and CA for C&R? Or are there states that prohibit that?

I know all my handgun will have to go to a dealer regardless of age and most being off roster.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:19 AM
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Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
The form is useless it does not remove it from your list. Since out of state transfers have to go through an FFL just keep where it went for your records.
Of course it doesn’t remove it from the database. But god forbid one gets red flagged or TRO, they’re going to be looking for that gun. It may take time to clear should you not have that documentation.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartridgeCalls View Post
Thanks everyone. Since I'm an FFL03 plus COE holder I can ship long guns directly to person in other states and CA for C&R? Or are there states that prohibit that?

I know all my handgun will have to go to a dealer regardless of age and most being off roster.
You should ask this on the FFL forum.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:34 AM
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1. The penal code is not a limit on DROS quantity, it's a limit on "transactions". By the letter of the law it's not relevant whether that's in state or out of state, the limit is on you as a CA resident. A transaction occurs. Now, of course, within CA, the DROS is the vehicle which CA would be aware that a transaction occurred, and it's not likely an out of state transaction would ever be known to CA. But that doesn't technically change your limit of 5. "You'd never get caught" does not make something legal.
2. The rules for C&R apply to the buyer, not the seller. It isn't relevant whether you have a C&R, only matters if the buyer has a C&R. Federal laws say you can ship C&R to other states if the buyer has the 03, because you are shipping to a FFL. Yes some states, like CA, have weird rules though. I know NV just changed and you can't ship direct to 03 there. NY/NJ probably also, I am not up on all those.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2021, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
1. The penal code is not a limit on DROS quantity, it's a limit on "transactions". By the letter of the law it's not relevant whether that's in state or out of state, the limit is on you as a CA resident. A transaction occurs. Now, of course, within CA, the DROS is the vehicle which CA would be aware that a transaction occurred, and it's not likely an out of state transaction would ever be known to CA. But that doesn't technically change your limit of 5. "You'd never get caught" does not make something legal.
2. The rules for C&R apply to the buyer, not the seller. It isn't relevant whether you have a C&R, only matters if the buyer has a C&R. Federal laws say you can ship C&R to other states if the buyer has the 03, because you are shipping to a FFL. Yes some states, like CA, have weird rules though. I know NV just changed and you can't ship direct to 03 there. NY/NJ probably also, I am not up on all those.
Thanks for the info
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2021, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul_R View Post
You should ask this on the FFL forum.
If a mod can move it that would be great
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
...Yes some states, like CA, have weird rules though. I know NV just changed and you can't ship direct to 03 there. ....
Do you know their reason for doing so in NV? I still haven't figured out the official reason that CA stopped direct shipments to FFL03s as the original wording of the bill that created the law here would have exempted FFL03s.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartridgeCalls View Post
Thanks everyone. Since I'm an FFL03 plus COE holder I can ship long guns directly to person in other states and CA for C&R? Or are there states that prohibit that?

I know all my handgun will have to go to a dealer regardless of age and most being off roster.
C&R handguns can ship directly to an 03 FFL holder in most states.
Obviously there are some that prohibit C&R transactions of any type.
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Old 10-07-2021, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
I disagree on the infreq law. If you are doing 6+ and 60 guns year after year then maybe you are a dealer. If you do 12 sales and got rid of all your guns in one year because you're broke and need the money I don't see how they could call you a dealer.

Penal Code section 16730:

(a) As used in Section 31815 and in Division 6 (commencing with Section 26500) of Title 4, “infrequent” means both of the following are true:

(1) The person conducts less than six transactions per calendar year.

(2) The person sells, leases, or transfers no more than 50 total firearms per calendar year.

(b) As used in this section, “transaction” means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms.
Notice that it says "both". So you must be both to be "infrequent". If you six or more transactions per year OR you do more than 50 firearms in a year, then you're not infrequent.
Even the ATF does not have a number for being a dealer. They see the same guys every month with a table at a different gun show, and they say "knock it off or we will be stern with you again at the next gun show."
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2021, 8:41 PM
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Oregon is one of the states that does not allow its residents who have a C&R license to purchase direct.
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Old 10-08-2021, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
Even the ATF does not have a number for being a dealer. They see the same guys every month with a table at a different gun show, and they say "knock it off or we will be stern with you again at the next gun show."
That may be, but in CA the letter of the law is 5. Now would a DA bring charges for selling 6 guns in a year? Probably not. But could they? Absolutely.
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2021, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Do you know their reason for doing so in NV?
NV universal background check laws went into effect on 01-02-2020.

Those laws requires all firearm transfers to be done through a NV FFL dealer.

There is no exemptions for C&R firearms and no exemptions for a person with a valid C&R 03-FFL.

There is an exemption for antique firearms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
I still haven't figured out the official reason that CA stopped direct shipments to FFL03s as the original wording of the bill that created the law here would have exempted FFL03s.
That exemption was removed before it was signed into law.

Since 01-01-2015, CA laws...
Requires a CA resident to utilize a CA FFL dealer to legally import firearms into CA. [PC 27585(a)]
Provides an exemption to this, if the CA resident has a valid C&R 03-FFL and physically acquires a C&R firearm out-of-state and brings that C&R firearm into CA and reports it to CA DOJ BOF within 5 days of returning to CA with the C&R firearm. [PC 27585(b)(1) and 27565]
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  #21  
Old 10-12-2021, 3:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Do you know their reason for doing so in NV?
I can probably be traced to a bunch of people from CA moving to NV, because they were dissatisfied with CA. Once they got there, they thought "this isn't like CA, let's change it so it is; there's no way that could backfire!".

And that's why most of the country dislikes us.
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  #22  
Old 10-15-2021, 9:34 AM
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People are way over thinking this dros limit. They're not looking for somebody who sells 6 7 8 9 firearms a year. The purpose of the limit was to clamp down on people who are essentially acting is unlicensed firearms dealers selling dozens of off roster firearms. You're not going to get red flagged and have your door kicked in by a bunch of guys in Black suvs.
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Old 10-15-2021, 4:23 PM
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^again, that may be true, but it doesn't make it legal. The purpose as explicitly stated in the penal code is to limit all people to 5 transactions, period. You probably won't get pulled over for driving 5mph over the speed limit either. That doesn't make it legal. Make your own decisions about risk, and the possibility of the consequences of what you do.
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Old 10-15-2021, 5:28 PM
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When I dispose of a C&R do I just log it in the disposition of my log book or do I have to file in the cfars online?
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Old 10-16-2021, 5:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartridgeCalls View Post
When I dispose of a C&R do I just log it in the disposition of my log book or do I have to file in the cfars online?
Under Federal laws/regulations...

If you have a valid C&R 03-FFL, then all C&R firearms that you transfer, in or out, must be logged in your bound book.

Under CA laws/regulations...

There is no requirement for the transferor of a firearm to report the transfer to CA DOJ.

Firearms that are transferred through a CA FFL dealer are reported as part of the DROS process.

There are requirements for the transferee of a firearm to report the transfer to CA DOJ, when the transfer is exempt from needing to be done through a CA FFL dealer.

If the firearm transfer is not done through a CA FFL dealer due to being exempt or due to the transfer occurring out-of-state, then the transferor can voluntarily report the transfer to CA DOJ.

Therefore...

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R firearm through a CA FFL dealer:
1. That person must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. There is no reporting requirement to CA DOJ due it being done by the CA DROS system.

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R long gun to a person, in CA, with a valid C&R 03-FFL and valid COE:
1. Both persons must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. The person acquiring the C&R long gun must report the transaction to CA DOJ.
3. There is no requirement for the person disposing of the C&R long gun to report the transaction to CA DOJ.

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R firearm through or to an out-of-state FFL:
1. That person must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. There is no requirement for the person disposing of the C&R firearm to report the transaction to CA DOJ.
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Last edited by Quiet; 10-16-2021 at 5:24 AM..
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2021, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Under Federal laws/regulations...

If you have a valid C&R 03-FFL, then all C&R firearms that you transfer, in or out, must be logged in your bound book.

Under CA laws/regulations...

There is no requirement for the transferor of a firearm to report the transfer to CA DOJ.

Firearms that are transferred through a CA FFL dealer are reported as part of the DROS process.

There are requirements for the transferee of a firearm to report the transfer to CA DOJ, when the transfer is exempt from needing to be done through a CA FFL dealer.

If the firearm transfer is not done through a CA FFL dealer due to being exempt or due to the transfer occurring out-of-state, then the transferor can voluntarily report the transfer to CA DOJ.

Therefore...

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R firearm through a CA FFL dealer:
1. That person must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. There is no reporting requirement to CA DOJ due it being done by the CA DROS system.

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R long gun to a person, in CA, with a valid C&R 03-FFL and valid COE:
1. Both persons must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. The person acquiring the C&R long gun must report the transaction to CA DOJ.
3. There is no requirement for the person disposing of the C&R long gun to report the transaction to CA DOJ.

As a CA resident, with a valid C&R 03-FFL, that is transferring a C&R firearm through or to an out-of-state FFL:
1. That person must record the transaction in their bound book.
2. There is no requirement for the person disposing of the C&R firearm to report the transaction to CA DOJ.

Thanks for the clarification. It is being transferred out of state
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Old 11-11-2021, 12:16 AM
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Doesn't CA PC 26530 specifically exempt any transfers made to a dealer with a Type 07 FFL from the CA law regulating the maximum number of sales?

So if you want to sell a large number of firearms, perhaps the one way to accomplish this would be to transfer the firearms to a Type 07 FFL, and have that dealer sell them for you on consignment?
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2021, 11:32 AM
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Consignments are a joke. They charge way to much. But I appreciate the idea.
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Old 11-13-2021, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolt_Action View Post
Doesn't CA PC 26530 specifically exempt any transfers made to a dealer with a Type 07 FFL from the CA law regulating the maximum number of sales?

So if you want to sell a large number of firearms, perhaps the one way to accomplish this would be to transfer the firearms to a Type 07 FFL, and have that dealer sell them for you on consignment?
PC 26530 = only applies to transfers between Type 07-FFLs and Type 08-FFLs.



Penal Code 26530
Section 26500 does not apply to sales, deliveries, or transfers of firearms between or to importers and manufacturers of firearms licensed to engage in that business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
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Old 11-13-2021, 7:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
PC 26530 = only applies to transfers between Type 07-FFLs and Type 08-FFLs.



Penal Code 26530
Section 26500 does not apply to sales, deliveries, or transfers of firearms between or to importers and manufacturers of firearms licensed to engage in that business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
Quiet, doesn’t the “or to” language contained in 26530 specifically mean that transfers *to* type-07 FFLs are exempt? The “to” language is in addition to the “between” language.
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  #31  
Old 11-14-2021, 12:35 PM
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Maybe I'll upgrade my FFL03 plus COE to an ffl07
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