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  #1  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:50 AM
Noobnoob! Noobnoob! is offline
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Default CA off-roster purchase clarification

Sorry if this has been discussed ad infinitum. I've done a good amount of reading but with new laws seemingly popping up all the time I'd rather double check and make sure so that I can do everything properly and legally.

So to recap, an off-roster handgun can be purchased in CA under these conditions:

* both buyer and seller must be private parties.
* both buyer and seller must be CA residents.
* transaction must be done at a FFL gun store.
* magazines if any must be no more than 10 round capacity.

Is that all correct? Anything else I'm missing?

Thank you kindly.
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  #2  
Old 03-02-2019, 12:04 PM
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Firearm must not be in the by name list of assault pistols.

Firearm must not have any features that will categorize it as an assault pistol.
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Old 03-02-2019, 2:35 PM
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The pistol must be in dros......when I moved back into CA I had to fill a form with CA doj to report all the pistols that I imported to Ca. If the original purchase was done in CA (ie through a leo/dod exempt) then no problem. If this is a new resident, the firearm must be reported within the first couple of weeks once the new resident moves in.

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Old 03-02-2019, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brix View Post
The pistol must be in dros......when I moved back into CA I had to fill a form with CA doj to report all the pistols that I imported to Ca. If the original purchase was done in CA (ie through a leo/dod exempt) then no problem. If this is a new resident, the firearm must be reported within the first couple of weeks once the new resident moves in.

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Incorrect, a new resident can either sell or register the firearms within 60 days. The firearms do not have to be in CA AFS first.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN

Quote:
27560.
(a) Within 60 days of bringing a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm, into this state, a personal firearm importer shall do one of the following:
(1) Forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report prescribed by the department including information concerning that individual and a description of the firearm in question.
(2) Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the provisions of Section 27545 or in accordance with the provisions of an exemption from Section 27545.
(3) Sell or transfer the firearm to a dealer licensed pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(4) Sell or transfer the firearm to a sheriff or police department.
I have bought several off roster handguns from new residents who never registered them, it is absolutely no problem because the firearms become registered when the CA PPT is done.
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Old 03-02-2019, 4:06 PM
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Seller can’t be prohibited from selling to non-LE as well.


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  #6  
Old 03-02-2019, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brix View Post
The pistol must be in dros......when I moved back into CA I had to fill a form with CA doj to report all the pistols that I imported to Ca. If the original purchase was done in CA (ie through a leo/dod exempt) then no problem. If this is a new resident, the firearm must be reported within the first couple of weeks once the new resident moves in.

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WRONG!

SkyHawk already clarified that.
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Old 03-02-2019, 4:11 PM
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Both buyer and seller must use the same FFL, no shipping.
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Old 03-02-2019, 4:19 PM
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You must also donate $500 to the “free health care for everyone” fund.
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  #9  
Old 03-02-2019, 4:34 PM
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Welcome to California & Calguns sir. You're getting s microcosm of CG in this thread. Much useful information to be had. Once you sort the vitriol, internet lawyering and the usual CG 'leg lifting' That latter is not my phrase. I found it somewhere on CG,But it is(!), prefect.

Thank you Skyhawk. I am not an attorney. But as I understand this, that is the letter of the law. Upon arrival here, owner must sell, OR register w/i sixty days.

Once you determine what FFL you'll be using, I suggest you call and ask what paperwork they accept. By the letter of the law there should not me any difference in what they accept. But in reality, there is. If you're the seller, which seems more likely, it's easier.

Oh and there is a nominal State of CA, ($35 typically) fee. A nominal CA state fee that results in simply endless hours of Shakespearean, 'yes this is the end of the world' kvetching here on CG. Unless agreed otherwise, the buyer typically pays all such fees

I don't think I missed it. Wanna' share what it is you buying or selling?

Last edited by sfarchitect; 03-02-2019 at 4:42 PM.. Reason: Because I can neither spell, nor punctuate correctly in less than three edits
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2019, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Incorrect, a new resident can either sell or register the firearms within 60 days. The firearms do not have to be in CA AFS first.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN



I have bought several off roster handguns from new residents who never registered them, it is absolutely no problem because the firearms become registered when the CA PPT is done.


The only thing to remember is that they are going to have to go to the DMV right away to get their CADL (within that 60 day ticker) so that they can have it for the PPT.
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Old 03-02-2019, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse View Post
The only thing to remember is that they are going to have to go to the DMV right away to get their CADL (within that 60 day ticker) so that they can have it for the PPT.
Of course, there are provisions which indicate the 60-day window isn’t barred shut...
Quote:
27570. (a) It is the intent of the Legislature that a violation of Section 27560 or 27565 shall not constitute a “continuing offense” and the statute of limitations for commencing a prosecution for a violation of Section 27560 or 27565 commences on the date that the applicable grace period specified in Section 27560 or 27565 expires.
(b) Sections 27560 and 27565 shall not apply to a person who reports ownership of a handgun after the applicable grace period specified in Section 27560 or 27565 expires if evidence of that violation arises only as the result of the person submitting the report described in Section 27560 or 27565.
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  #12  
Old 03-02-2019, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse View Post
The only thing to remember is that they are going to have to go to the DMV right away to get their CADL (within that 60 day ticker) so that they can have it for the PPT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Of course, there are provisions which indicate the 60-day window isn’t barred shut...
This is true. I have bought from new residents who were very tardy in compliance and it was never a problem, but yes they do need a CA drivers license or ID.
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Old 03-03-2019, 5:07 AM
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^ Correct. The tricky part is hoping they mail it to you fast enough. 30-45 days is what I’ve seen...
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Old 03-03-2019, 6:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
This is true. I have bought from new residents who were very tardy in compliance and it was never a problem, but yes they do need a CA drivers license or ID.
Make sure they get the correct CA ID card authorized for firearm purchases. Bring the proper credentials to DMV for acquiring ID.
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2019, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTROKS View Post
Make sure they get the correct CA ID card authorized for firearm purchases. Bring the proper credentials to DMV for acquiring ID.


Damn that too. Just remembered after mid year one needs a “REAL ID” ROFL
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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I’ve never heard of a seller being denied PPT services for not having REAL ID or having Federal Limits Apply.

There is a first time for everything of course, but releasing custody of a firearm is a lot different than acquiring a firearm. Witness gun turn ins, where no ID of any kind is required.

Where a problem may arise is if the seller has to come back to get their gun after a failed buyer DROS. An easy way to deal with this is make sure you don’t go to any anti-2A FFLs, because requiring REAL ID or denying federal limits apply is only a suggestion by DOJ and is not law. And ATF is also good with it.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2018...earm-purchases
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse View Post
Damn that too. Just remembered after mid year one needs a “REAL ID” ROFL
DHS has “drop dead dates”:
DHS Real ID FAQs.
Quote:
Starting January 22, 2018, passengers who have driver's licenses issued by a state that is not yet compliant with REAL ID and that has not received an extension will need to show an alternative form of acceptable identification for domestic air travel.

Starting October 1, 2020, every state and territory resident will need to present a REAL ID compliant license/ID, or another acceptable form of identification, for accessing Federal facilities, entering nuclear power plants, and boarding commercial aircraft.
OAG says there’s an alternative....
OAG Web Notice
OAG Consumer Alert.
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:30 AM
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seller may not violate the law

Ex-Pasadena Police Lieutenant Sentenced to One Year in Federal Prison for Unlicensed Selling of Firearms and Lying on ATF Form
LOS ANGELES – A former lieutenant in the Pasadena Police Department was sentenced today to one year and one day in federal prison for exploiting his status as a police officer to engage in the unlicensed sale of more than 100 firearms and for making a false statement during the purchase of a firearm.

Vasken Kenneth Gourdikian, 50, of Sierra Madre, was sentenced by United States District Judge Stephen V. Wilson, who also ordered Gourdikian to pay a $10,000 fine.

Judge Wilson said he didn’t find credible Gourdikian’s claims of being “a hobbyist who got out of control.” In imposing the prison sentence, Judge Wilson noted, “This was a way for him to make money.”

In September 2018, Gourdikian pleaded guilty to federal charges of engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license and making a false statement during the purchase of a firearm.

Gourdikian engaged in the unlicensed sale of at least 108 firearms between March 2014 and February 2017 and used his official status as a police officer to purchase restricted “off roster” firearms. “Off roster” firearms are firearms that in California are not available for purchase by the general public directly from a licensed federal firearms dealer. While police officers are not prohibited from selling “off roster” firearms to the general public, Gourdikian unlawfully engaged in the business of selling firearms without a license.

In advertisements to sell firearms that he posted to an online firearms marketplace, Gourdikian sought to increase the purchase price and desirability of his firearms by describing them as “off roster,” “BNIB” (brand new in box), and “never fired.” Gourdikian admitted in his plea agreement that 80 of the 108 firearms were “off roster” firearms he sold in third-party transactions to non-law enforcement customers. Had Gourdikian possessed a federal firearms license, he would have been unable to sell nearly 75 percent of the 108 firearms he admitted to selling because California law prohibits federal firearms licensees from selling “off roster” firearms to non-law enforcement buyers, court papers state.

Gourdikian also abused his law enforcement position in other ways to benefit his gun-selling scheme. He admitted to circumventing the usual 10-day waiting period required for firearms purchases by using his position as police officer to bypass this state law. Because California law also exempts law enforcement from a general rule that prohibits the purchase of more than one firearm within a 30-day period, Gourdikian often purchased multiple firearms in a single transaction as a means of restocking his sales inventory. Gourdikian re-sold 79 firearms within six days after he purchased them, according to the government’s sentencing memorandum.

Another one of Gourdikian’s admitted offenses was making a false statement on a “re-certification” form for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that he signed in 2014 when he took possession of a handgun. He misrepresented on the form that he was the buyer of a firearm when he actually purchased it for another individual, according to his plea agreement. Gourdikian re-sold the gun to another person on the same day he bought it from a gun dealer, court documents state. The purpose of this form is to ensure community safety by allowing law enforcement to monitor who purchases firearms and to track the sales of guns.

Highlighting the danger of Gourdikian’s conduct, court filings also described how, in 2016, one of the firearms that Gourdikian purchased was recovered by local police at the site of a narcotics investigation.

“Mr. Gourdikian’s side business of selling off-roster firearms violated federal law and endangered the public,” said United States Attorney Nick Hanna. “Police officers are permitted to purchase off-roster weapons for their own use and protection, but the law was not designed to give officers a lucrative second career as unlicensed firearms dealers flooding our communities with weapons not available to the general public.”

“The goal of ATF’s illegal firearms trafficking enforcement efforts is to reduce violent crime by stemming the flow of firearms to prohibited individuals,” said the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives (ATF) Los Angeles Field Division Special Agent in Charge Carlos A. Canino. “ATF’s Crime Gun Intelligence Center routinely looks at crime guns recovered at scenes and multiple purchases by individuals. Through analysis, ATF discovered this individual was engaged in the business of dealing in firearms without a license which is a federal violation.”

This matter was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

This case is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Elisa Fernandez of the Public Corruption and Civil Rights Section and Jennifer Chou of the Violent and Organized Crime Section.

Component(s):
USAO - California, Central
Contact:
Ciaran McEvoy
Public Information Officer
United States Attorney’s Office
Central District of California (Los Angeles)
(213) 894-4465
Press Release Number:
19-031
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2019, 3:20 AM
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FUD from deephouse. 7/1/19
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2019, 7:11 AM
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Lol @ CG leg lifting
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Old 03-05-2019, 7:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saym14 View Post
seller may not violate the law
Sure, seller may not be a felon, either (except in certain mandated disposal situations).

But that level is getting pretty far off the OP's question.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Old 03-05-2019, 5:27 PM
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So I have the option when I move this summer not to register some of my off roster handguns and sell them within the 60 days of moving here? While in California a couple weeks ago I was told I had to register them and wait six months before selling any.
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Old 04-06-2019, 7:51 PM
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Would my buddy from out of state be able to sell me an off roster pistol if we meet at the same ffl?
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Old 04-06-2019, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgutz View Post
Would my buddy from out of state be able to sell me an off roster pistol if we meet at the same ffl?
Not unless you are exempt from the Roster, or the pistol would be C&R.

Out of state resident to CA resident is 'interstate transfer', no matter where the transfer occurs. Interstate transfer is not a CA PPT, so the Roster applies.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Old 04-07-2019, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by verdigris View Post
So I have the option when I move this summer not to register some of my off roster handguns and sell them within the 60 days of moving here? While in California a couple weeks ago I was told I had to register them and wait six months before selling any.
Whoever you spoke with before...don’t talk to them, again.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:30 PM
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Hello, I am doing my research on buying my first gun in CA.
I want to buy Walther Q5 Match SF or SF Pro.
I notice that even the NON Pro model came with 15 rounds magazine while the Q5 SF Pro have 17 rounds. Will I be able to legally buy from private seller in CA since their standard magazine is over 10 rounds?
Thank You
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIANG2X View Post
Hello, I am doing my research on buying my first gun in CA.
I want to buy Walther Q5 Match SF or SF Pro.
I notice that even the NON Pro model came with 15 rounds magazine while the Q5 SF Pro have 17 rounds. Will I be able to legally buy from private seller in CA since their standard magazine is over 10 rounds?
Thank You

You can purchase the firearm (without mags) via private party, and then buy 10rd magazines for it.
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Old 10-09-2019, 4:55 AM
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No large cap mags unless exempt.
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  #29  
Old 10-09-2019, 5:21 AM
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Just do yourself a huge favor and don’t move here.

Yeah, we have beaches and the girls are tan. But some have a little more than expected, a little something extra, down there. If ya know what I mean.

But seriously, skip this place. It’s looks beautiful on the outside, but you’re in, well, like the song says, “you can never leave”.


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Old 10-09-2019, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Incorrect, a new resident can either sell or register the firearms within 60 days. The firearms do not have to be in CA AFS first.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN



I have bought several off roster handguns from new residents who never registered them, it is absolutely no problem because the firearms become registered when the CA PPT is done.
As well, there are probably half a bazillion handguns that were brought in by new residents before that law was passed. Those aren't in the DROS system at all.
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Old 10-09-2019, 7:53 PM
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Wait does this mean if you were a resident before 2014 and brought in handguns before 2014 you don’t have to register them with the state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Incorrect, a new resident can either sell or register the firearms within 60 days. The firearms do not have to be in CA AFS first.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...0.&lawCode=PEN



I have bought several off roster handguns from new residents who never registered them, it is absolutely no problem because the firearms become registered when the CA PPT is done.
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Old 10-09-2019, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
Wait does this mean if you were a resident before 2014 and brought in handguns before 2014 you don’t have to register them with the state?


Quote:
27560.
(a) Within 60 days of bringing a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm, into this state, a personal firearm importer shall do one of the following:
I’m pretty sure that it’s been handguns for a long time. And this wording kind of confirms this because it says “and commencing January 1, 2014” in reference to rifles. If you recall, it was on that date all rifle sales were registered like handguns.

Now, I’m not entirely certain on all the dates, but I believe ppt sales of handguns required a dealer after 1991. All new handgun sales had been dros’d and registered before then, but this added ppt’s. So I’d gather that people moving in had to register handguns after 1991, but I am guessing here. It certainly was before 2014.

There are for sure millions of unregistered handguns in the state. Both brought in and private sales. I’m guessing that the state isn’t terribly interested in those at this moment. But I’m sure that’s on the agenda.


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