Finding Ammo After TEOTWAWKI...

[71MUSTY]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

Agreed. In part. As a primary weapon, the handgun is not a wise choice. But, it does have it's place, since in certain situations it is better than a long gun.

Which is why I have a large collection of pistol caliber rifles, 30-30's, along with some select long range options.

[chsk9]

Originally Posted by KevinB

The last thing you want in a bad situation is a handgun. Slow ineffective ammo and being able to engage targets that are trying to kill you at yardage. People will not let get close enough to use them, and will kill you very quickly when they realize you are poorly armed.

Your handguns are almost worthless at 100 yards plus. At 300 they are worthless. Crossbows, longbows, black powder and all the rest is just going to get you killed.

You will need people and firepower or learn to run very quickly.

If you think your are going to make a living finding obscure ammo you are going to be dead. The rest is folly.

Some strong points, but a handgun is essential in urban environments.

[KevinB]

Originally Posted by chsk9

Some strong points, but a handgun is essential in urban environments.

I can't think how a M4 would not be a better choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a handgun, it just would't be my #1 choice.

Urban area's will be a death trap that will require brute force. Pretty much everywhere will require brute force.

[chsk9]

Brute force and a big wrecking crew to bring it. I don't think most people recognize the number of people required to run a viable defense, but so be it, more battlefield pickups for me.

[drunktank]

This isn't directed to anyone specifically here but I always hear people talking about being able to just scavenge ammo after a SHTF scenario. This isn't a video game or fantasy. If you need ammo AFTER the fact, then you're doing something wrong. Plan your weapons (and calibers) ahead of time and have enough of it before SHTF. Also, you can never have enough.

[Citizen_B]

Originally Posted by KevinB

I can't think how a M4 would not be a better choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a handgun, it just would't be my #1 choice.

Urban area's will be a death trap that will require brute force. Pretty much everywhere will require brute force.

I think handguns have two advantages over mid-range long guns (like an AR-15) and a role in the scenario we're talking about: (1) on person carry, and (2) convenient storage/access.

(1) could be in a concealed application, or more convenience in an open carry application. I've carried both openly over long durations and a pistol in an OWB hostler is tons more convenient than an M4 slung on back if you have to do any normal work. I'm not talking about dedicated security/patrol work, which an AR-15 would be the appropriate tool, I'm talking about doing everyday real world work while still having immediate access to a near-field defense tool.

(2) would be subjective to the user and their environment. Very young children (too young to teach safety) would be another consideration. Not a one size fits all.

[KevinB]

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

I think handguns have two advantages over mid-range long guns (like an AR-15) and a role in the scenario we're talking about: (1) on person carry, and (2) convenient storage/access.

(1) could be in a concealed application, or more convenience in an open carry application. I've carried both openly over long durations and a pistol in an OWB hostler is tons more convenient than an M4 slung on back if you have to do any normal work. I'm not talking about dedicated security/patrol work, which an AR-15 would be the appropriate tool, I'm talking about doing everyday real world work while still having immediate access to a near-field defense tool.

(2) would be subjective to the user and their environment. Very young children (too young to teach safety) would be another consideration. Not a one size fits all.

Unless I read wrong, we were discussing a TEOTWAWKI issue. Again I cannot see where a handgun would be a better option than a M4 or better. It is never a good idea not to have a gun that is not up to the task at hand.

[Baeleron]

Originally Posted by rm1911

The gun you want to have is a 357 revolver. Rick grimes has never run out of ammo.

He's never run out of gasoline either, despite the fact that it eventually goes stale. Abandoned cars still have charged batteries in his world too. Pretty awesome!

[FeuerFrei]

Originally Posted by Baeleron

He's never run out of gasoline either, despite the fact that it eventually goes stale. Abandoned cars still have charged batteries in his world too. Pretty awesome!

Good point
Now if only they could've figured out a way to harness walkers to pull a wagon or trailer. Right?

Sent using a long string and 2 Dixie cups

[Citizen_B]

Originally Posted by KevinB

Unless I read wrong, we were discussing a TEOTWAWKI issue. Again I cannot see where a handgun would be a better option than a M4 or better. It is never a good idea not to have a gun that is not up to the task at hand.

Well, having had to carry/use both, I can say there are some advantages to a handgun over a long gun. It doesn't look like we're going to agree nor any amount of discussion is going to change that.

[chsk9]

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

Well, having had to carry/use both, I can say there are some advantages to a handgun over a long gun. It doesn't look like we're going to agree nor any amount of discussion is going to change that.

A factor to consider is that if you are in a position to need a rifle slung while working then you will realistically need people performing security over the working party. This is what I was addressing earlier about needing far more people to survive than most people recognize.

This does promote the position that a sidearm has a place in your kit, especially if you are the one tasked with farming/wrenching/etc.

[big red]

when people start forming communities for survival post whatever happens they will bring their guns and both rifles and handguns should be voluntarily reassigned along with ammo depending on the job they are needed for. everything is going to change in order to survive and cooperation will be needed or we perish. I have a wide variety of calibers in both and hope they will help insure the survival of any group I join. if they do then the weapons have done their job.

[el_clingon]

Originally Posted by Rottentofu

Been reading too many SHTF posts in various forums and one comment that kept popping up was to utilize the most common calibers for your SHTF preparations. It makes sense if you thought about it, quickly.

But then I thought about it some more and began to wonder. Wouldn't the MOST common calibers (9mm, 223, etc.) be the FIRST to be depleted during a SHTF scenario, because those calibers will be used by the majority of the population?

Wouldn't it make more sense to find UNcommon calibers laying around in abandoned houses, stores, etc.? Personally, if I have to bug out, I am definitely taking all my 9mm and 223, and ditching my 380 acp.

Anyhoo, just a random thought.

IMO, 9mm and 223/556 will be the most common ammo to find after a SHTF. you can trade for it or find it off dead bodies laying around since everyone will be using them. I have been watching WAY to much Walking Dead. lol

[Zamble]

Yeah, so somebody kills someone for what they have/or what they thing they have and they will leave the ammo there just so you can “find” it? If TEOTWAKI ever happened, you are not going to find supplies and ammo like in a video game. You will have to kill or trade for it.

[el_clingon]

Originally Posted by Zamble

Yeah, so somebody kills someone for what they have/or what they thing they have and they will leave the ammo there just so you can “find” it? If TEOTWAKI ever happened, you are not going to find supplies and ammo like in a video game. You will have to kill or trade for it.

I did not want to say "Kill", but that is what will happen when people get desperate. they will take whatever you have, and take your life as well.

how i see it, if we ever go to a TEOTWAKI, (which to me is a video game mentality). If you live "X" amount of days after TEOTWAKI, it will be a blessing, because you may wake up the next day and then your dead or live for another minute.

I am more mentally prepared for a SHTF scenario, but just hope FEMA comes in fast enough to save us and make us their slaves. lol

[WarBoyNux]

Originally Posted by Simi762

Common cold and infected cuts will kill the remaining population, school teachers will be the only survivors

And nurses.

[2c5s]

Long term survival and running gunfights.... lmao

[Sunday]

Master Romeo would say no matter how good you think you are there will always be some one better . Maybe just lucky.

[el_clingon]

Originally Posted by sbo80

how f'd up is the world that you've managed to shoot up all of your ammo? Either you really like suppressing fire, or you have survived hundreds of armed assaults. Or your zombie apocalypse plan is to be an assaulter, and you go around rampaging taking what you want. If you are doing that much shooting, odds are significantly against you living long enough to worry about an ammo shortage.

I agree with this post. I think people have this fantasy of fighting off the world in a zombie apocalypse, or fighting off an invading force. How I see it, the concept to survive is to avoid all confrontation as much as possible, and if I have to fight, I will fight to get away from the situation. I am not an operator, but I do have enough knowledge to avoid confrontation or to escape one, hence, saving my ammo.

Originally Posted by Hairball

Chances are people won't live very long due to lack of modern medicine and sanitation so trying to figure out what ammunition might be available should not be too high on your list of priorities if all social services are no longer available. Stash away whatever you think you might need but the real reality of a TEOTWAWKI scenario is that most folks will die from disease and infection more than getting into a shootout with someone trying to take their stuff. If the germs don't kill you, the fallout will. We have over 60 nuclear power plants with 99 nuclear reactors in the US alone (over 500 world-wide) and if no one is around to maintain them and they melt down, do really think it matters what cartridge you stocked up on. We have advanced to the point that the planet will die if it ever gets that bad.

I agree with this statement too...lack of sanitation will kill off a lot of the population and spread disease. A melt down at a nuclear power plant would be a bad thing. radiation does not just stay at the location of the meltdown. As long the jet stream is moving, it will take the radiation with it.

[Sailormilan2]

Originally Posted by KevinB

Agreed, I carry a handgun everyday concealed. But in any gun battle I hope to use it to get to a long gun.

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who said that the handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle that you shouldn't have put down in the first place.

Originally Posted by el_clingon

I agree with this post. I think people have this fantasy of fighting off the world in a zombie apocalypse, or fighting off an invading force. How I see it, the concept to survive is to avoid all confrontation as much as possible, and if I have to fight, I will fight to get away from the situation. I am not an operator, but I do have enough knowledge to avoid confrontation or to escape one, hence, saving my ammo.

Years ago in the first Edition of SWAT magazine they did a comparison of various "battle" and "assault" rifles. Interestingly enough, they preferred the Garand over the M14 style rifle, stating for the individual(lone) rifleman the tactic would be shoot and scoot. No great exchange of gunfire. They felt the Garand would be better suited for that.
That concept makes sense, since a lone rifleman usually lacks a supply chain to replenishment.

[augoldminer]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who said that the handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle that you shouldn't have put down in the first place.



Years ago in the first Edition of SWAT magazine they did a comparison of various "battle" and "assault" rifles. Interestingly enough, they preferred the Garand over the M14 style rifle, stating for the individual(lone) rifleman the tactic would be shoot and scoot. No great exchange of gunfire. They felt the Garand would be better suited for that.
That concept makes sense, since a lone rifleman usually lacks a supply chain to replenishment.

I agree with the Garand as a very good rifle for after TEOTWAWKI .

but it needs to be converted to a scout rifle with a good mil-dot scope. then sighted in at 300 yards and shot enough to set up a range card for over and under hold for other ranges.
http://www.m1garand.com/wp/wp-conten...T11414-003.jpg
And i also have a old AR-7 .22 rifle with a mil-dot scope that after TEOTWAWKI (and only after)can be fitted with a suppressor made from PCV pipe and cardboard for hunting and low noise defence.

[Sailormilan2]

I have several Garands. But I prefer a "Tanker" in .308 Win. I just need to install a scout style mount.

[bv141]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

I have several Garands. But I prefer a "Tanker" in .308 Win. I just need to install a scout style mount.

A SOCOM-16??

[GW]

223 and 308
9mm and 45ACP
Having those calibers should cover 80%+ of the guns around and you can pass the post-apocalypse down-time with arguments as to which caliber is better.

[Sailormilan2]

Originally Posted by bv141

A SOCOM-16??

I have a short "Bush" style Polytech M14, and a .308 "Tanker" Garand. Not really a whole lot of difference. I made them both. The "Tanker" was cheaper to make.
But, then again, this is CA we're talking about. I can put a Flash Suppressor on a "Tanker", but not on the M14. Since we're limited to 10 Rd mags, not a lot of difference between an 8 Rd en Bloc and a 10 Rd mags.

[FeuerFrei]

^^ interesting choice except the sound that tells everybody you just ran dry. " PING! "
Or dump the clip manually and do a reload after 7 rds. '06 is nothing to sneeze at tho.

Sent using a long string and 2 used soup cans

[Sunday]

O.K.

[tomrkba]

I know where I will be raiding but I won’t give you the idea.

[poppa p]

Double tap

[hunterb]

Originally Posted by Hairball

Chances are people won't live very long due to lack of modern medicine and sanitation so trying to figure out what ammunition might be available should not be too high on your list of priorities if all social services are no longer available. Stash away whatever you think you might need but the real reality of a TEOTWAWKI scenario is that most folks will die from disease and infection more than getting into a shootout with someone trying to take their stuff. If the germs don't kill you, the fallout will. We have over 60 nuclear power plants with 99 nuclear reactors in the US alone (over 500 world-wide) and if no one is around to maintain them and they melt down, do really think it matters what cartridge you stocked up on. We have advanced to the point that the planet will die if it ever gets that bad.

THIS. TEOTWAWKI is a silly fantasy, and preparing for that scenario is a fool's errand at best and just mental masturbation in reality.
Prep for a realistic scenario-->1 month without water, food, services, or medical assistance. 9mm vs. 45acp vs 5.56mm isn't even a realistic concern.

Hoarding thousands of rounds of ammo while you don't have proper water, food, medicine AND medical training is foolish, you can't drink ammo and you will get yourself killed trying to take someone else's.

The reality is in a true "End of the World" scenario, we all will be dead, unless you've spent about $100 million+ in preps for your fortified bunker in New Zealand and have a huge 747 that you can fly yourself to get there in one trip.

Frankly, if TEOTWAWKI was truly a concern, you wouldn't live in anywhere near a major city, and definitely not anywhere in a place as populous as California.....

[chsk9]

Originally Posted by hunterb

THIS. TEOTWAWKI is a silly fantasy, and preparing for that scenario is a fool's errand at best and just mental masturbation in reality.
Prep for a realistic scenario-->1 month without water, food, services, or medical assistance. 9mm vs. 45acp vs 5.56mm isn't even a realistic concern.

Hoarding thousands of rounds of ammo while you don't have proper water, food, medicine AND medical training is foolish, you can't drink ammo and you will get yourself killed trying to take someone else's.

The reality is in a true "End of the World" scenario, we all will be dead, unless you've spent about $100 million+ in preps for your fortified bunker in New Zealand and have a huge 747 that you can fly yourself to get there in one trip.

Frankly, if TEOTWAWKI was truly a concern, you wouldn't live in anywhere near a major city, and definitely not anywhere in a place as populous as California.....

I don't so much believe in a TEOWAWKI event as I do a massive earthquake in California, Oregon, and Washington setting life back to turn of the century for 4-5 years. If you look at what has happened to New Orleans there are still neighborhoods that have not recovered from Katrina in 2005.

There is also the frog in the pot of water scenario. The slow burn on the quality of life which at some point leads to a tipping point for the worse. Ferfal blog spot has some very interesting real world survival from the economic collapse in Argentina, which is facing significant austerity measures at the moment. I'm sure more books could be written by those in Venezuela right now.

[theLBC]

Originally Posted by hunterb

THIS. TEOTWAWKI is a silly fantasy, and preparing for that scenario is a fool's errand at best and just mental masturbation in reality.
Prep for a realistic scenario-->1 month without water, food, services, or medical assistance. 9mm vs. 45acp vs 5.56mm isn't even a realistic concern.

Hoarding thousands of rounds of ammo while you don't have proper water, food, medicine AND medical training is foolish, you can't drink ammo and you will get yourself killed trying to take someone else's.

The reality is in a true "End of the World" scenario, we all will be dead, unless you've spent about $100 million+ in preps for your fortified bunker in New Zealand and have a huge 747 that you can fly yourself to get there in one trip.

Frankly, if TEOTWAWKI was truly a concern, you wouldn't live in anywhere near a major city, and definitely not anywhere in a place as populous as California.....

true.
i'm not a real prepper, but i keep decent amounts of ammo on hand to both protect whatever resources i already have, and to aid in acquiring resources if or when necessary.

[colt11]

I heard this argument from a guy at the LGS that sold his 10mm Colt Delta Elite so he could buy a 9. Meh thinks he was not thinking clearly. I imagine driving out of town in a SHFS and being stopped at the first check point and having my firearms confiscated. If you are truly concerned about this, then bringing multiple pistols, in various calibers with you. You can now barter with more people since you have different calibers of interest, you might even need to trade a Glock for food and water(?).

[HUTCH 7.62]

Not gonna worry .40 cal will be in abundance.

[paddyraid]

stockpile all calibers and take all your guns with you when SHTF. the more the better.

why ditch your .380 when you can use it for currency/trading or for target practice when you're bored? LMAO.

[Californio]

I will start melting my fishing weights.

[Sailormilan2]

Originally Posted by colt11

I heard this argument from a guy at the LGS that sold his 10mm Colt Delta Elite so he could buy a 9. Meh thinks he was not thinking clearly

Actually, he could have added a 9mm & a .40 barrel for a nominal amount, and then had the option of caliber choices.

[johnthomas]

Get a break open 12 gauge shotgun. Then get these inserts for all the calibers you own.

https://www.gunadapters.com/

[HUTCH 7.62]

I’m not worried.......40 cal will be in abundance.

[el_clingon]

Originally Posted by HUTCH 7.62

I’m not worried.......40 cal will be in abundance.

I have 1500 rounds of .40 cal, and I don't have a .40 hand gun, so I would use it as currency when the time comes.