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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#841
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If that's what you want to believe I'm not going to stop you.
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Some random thoughts: Somebody's gotta be the mole so it might as well be me. Seems to be working so far. Evil doesn't only come in black. Life is like a discount bakery. Usually everything is just what you ordered. But, occasionally you come face to face with an unexpected fruitcake. Surprise! My Utubery |
#842
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If we are being realistic, the injunction and appeal of the interlocutory injunction are virtually meaningless other that as a signal of the judge's inclination. Even if the application of the 3 requirements is enjoined until the final decision is rendered, two things have to happen before a single additional firearm can be sold in California to the masses. First, a firearm company has to be willing to submit an application for approval and second, the state has to process that application. How many companies will be interested in starting the process without a final adjudication of the case? Will, for instance, Sig want to submit their myriad different versions of the P320 only to risk seeing the law upheld ultimately. Second, the new firearm must still receive approval from the state even if submitted. Does anyone doubt that any approval would be slow walked with multiple questions/issues raised by the state such that no approval will come about until well after the case has received final judgment. So, to me, preliminary injunction or TRO has virtually no impact on whether a new gun will be added to the roster. I suspect there will have to be a final non-appealable judgement eliminating the 3 requirements or the entire roster before any meaningful addition is made to the roster.
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#843
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#844
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#845
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Mark Smith dropped another gem.
Footnote #11 of Bruen. https://youtu.be/TccT0l18Sy0 Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
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#846
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* The following laboratories are currently certified by the Department of Justice to test handguns for safety/functionality related to this requirement: NTS Technical Systems-Belcamp 4603B Compass Point Road Belcamp, MD 21017 (410) 297-8154 Professional Analysis and Consulting, Inc. 4951 Indiana Ave, # 600 Lisle , IL 60532 (630) 466-4040 Taken from their own website: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/labcert
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NRA Pistol/Rifle Instructor CADOJ Certified Instructor NRA Pistol/Rimfire Rifle Distinguished Expert NRA RSO, IDPA Safety Officer NRA & CRPA Member Veteran, 1994-1998 Last edited by Zenderfall; 03-29-2023 at 7:28 PM.. |
#847
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They at best may examine that they have the requisite safety features. Actual performance testing of the handguns (drop test, firing test) is performed by one of several certified/approved 3rd party test labs.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#848
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That Mark E. Smith video ...
My GOD what a loud shouting blowhard. It took him 7 bloody minutes to get to the point. So for anyone else thinking of clicking, spare yourself the hyperbole and skip to about 6.30 in and turn off at about 8 minutes in. |
#849
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On the subject, I bet Franklin Arms is pissed they got approval for their single shot Sig 320 after all the hassle.
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"The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia." -George Orwell 1984 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a "How To" guide. Time magazine bragging about how they stole the election: https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ |
#850
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Does this mean anyone can submit a firearm for testing?
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The Rifle on the Wall "“[S]cientific proof” of both gun-rights and gun-control theories “is very hard to get”; therefore, requiring “some substantial scientific proof to show that a [firearm] law will indeed substantially reduce crime and injury” is tantamount to applying strict scrutiny to, and almost certainly will lead to invalidation of, the law." - Kamala Harris Lawyers and their Stockholm Syndrome |
#851
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Might be worth picking one up after all.
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10/03/2022 | App submitted 02/06/2023 | Interview 02/07/2023 | Livescan 02/12/2023 | Qualification 02/17/2023 | Permit Picked up |
#852
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Glock would have to produce a CA model to be able to add that feature and the painted extractor and the additional slide markings for the CLI but it's probably possible if they can figure out the MDM without needing to mold a different frame.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#853
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The only thing that should be able to extend that would be a failure of some requirements to be met, but a company should have all those requirements in order before they apply so that the application can be processed in a timely manner. You do your drop testing and live fire testing with the independent lab before you even apply. Once you pass the testing and you meet the manual safety requirements, there's not really anything the state can do to NOT process your application. They are bound by the laws of the process. |
#854
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I wonder if manufacturers who have MA Compliant models already got them tested and can simply submit that test data with an application. If I was marketing manager at a manufacturer that’s what I would do. Increase sales on 10 more models for less than $1000 in marketing expenses.
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CRPA Member |
#855
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These are facilities Massachussetts approved for testing:
NTS - Wichita 7477 W. 33rd St. North Wichita, KS 67205 (316) 832-1600 www.nts.com/locations/wichita NTS - Chesapeake Testing 4603 Compass Point Rd Belcamp, MD 21017 (410) 297-8154 www.nts.com/location/belcamp-md Professional Analysis and Consulting, Inc 4951 Indiana Ave Suite 600 Lisle, IL 60532 (630) 446-4040 www.proaaci.com And these are California's approved: NTS Technical Systems-Belcamp 4603B Compass Point Road Belcamp, MD 21017 (410) 297-8154 Professional Analysis and Consulting, Inc. 4951 Indiana Ave, # 600 Lisle , IL 60532 (630) 466-4040 As you can see, two are the same (MD and IL). These were taken from CA and MA's websites. So the answer seems to be probably. However, the harder part is satisfying both the CLI (not LCI, there's a difference as I recently found out!) and Mag Discon that the sometime in the not-so-far future may require. I think MA's roster requirements are a tad more lax than CA's.
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NRA Pistol/Rifle Instructor CADOJ Certified Instructor NRA Pistol/Rimfire Rifle Distinguished Expert NRA RSO, IDPA Safety Officer NRA & CRPA Member Veteran, 1994-1998 |
#856
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#857
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One thing ignoring the timeline can do is to open themselves up to further lawsuits, and gives another reason to eliminate the roster entirely.
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California, the once-great first world state that is now a corrupt third world socialist cesspool. |
#858
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You are correct. As a matter of policy, I eschew BS.
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Proud CGN Contributor USMC Pistol Team Alumni - Distinguished Pistol Shot Owner of multiple Constitutionally protected tools |
#859
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It might be many months before we see new guns added to the roster. Then there is the inevitable shortages when California buys the entire national supply. If your not in the first group of buyers be prepared to wait |
#860
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See also 11 CCR ? 4059 "(c) Other than the DOJ, only the manufacturer/importer of a handgun model is authorized to submit that handgun model to a DOJ-Certified Laboratory for testing."
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 03-30-2023 at 10:29 AM.. |
#861
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importer: PacWest Arms in WA). They also Rostered the Walther P1 for awhile. I am unclear if a Sig P6 identical to the one imported by PWA - but not imported by that firm - would be defendably considerable as Rostered. [This is a bit different than SKU variants.]
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#862
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Good luck with that.
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Some random thoughts: Somebody's gotta be the mole so it might as well be me. Seems to be working so far. Evil doesn't only come in black. Life is like a discount bakery. Usually everything is just what you ordered. But, occasionally you come face to face with an unexpected fruitcake. Surprise! My Utubery |
#863
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10/03/2022 | App submitted 02/06/2023 | Interview 02/07/2023 | Livescan 02/12/2023 | Qualification 02/17/2023 | Permit Picked up Last edited by Superben104; 03-30-2023 at 12:26 PM.. Reason: link not working |
#864
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I don't like what this guy is saying. FYI The youtube tag doesn't take the whole url. Last edited by abinsinia; 03-30-2023 at 12:31 PM.. |
#865
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Weird. I must be missing something.
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10/03/2022 | App submitted 02/06/2023 | Interview 02/07/2023 | Livescan 02/12/2023 | Qualification 02/17/2023 | Permit Picked up |
#866
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You just use part of the url not the whole url bolded below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIDLlVpFiAo |
#868
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The Rifle on the Wall "“[S]cientific proof” of both gun-rights and gun-control theories “is very hard to get”; therefore, requiring “some substantial scientific proof to show that a [firearm] law will indeed substantially reduce crime and injury” is tantamount to applying strict scrutiny to, and almost certainly will lead to invalidation of, the law." - Kamala Harris Lawyers and their Stockholm Syndrome |
#869
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Yeah he is a real treat, very hard to watch that guy.
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#870
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It's about that time. |
#873
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#874
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Last edited by JohnnyDangerously; 03-30-2023 at 4:54 PM.. Reason: God’s will |
#875
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The founding fathers did a wonderful thing when they included the second amendment to the constitution... Yes... and this! http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/87senrpt.pdf Good Guys with Guns HERE |
#876
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Appellees did not ask the district court to enjoin the requirements that handguns pass a firing reliability test, drop safety test, or have a positive manually operated safety device to be eligible for admission to the Roster. My question is why not? These requirements are not required in the vast majority of states. I understand that this case predates Bruen and you attack the low hanging fruit first. Good thing that Renna picked up the ball. |
#877
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Whereas CLI and MDM requirements add additional features to and alter the operation off an otherwise well-manufactured handgun, proving laws focused only on confirming the basic operating features of a firearm. Whereas CLI and MDM requirements aim to prevent harm to others resulting from the user not knowing the firearm is loaded, proving laws targeted the firearm itself and aimed to protect the safety of the person using the firearm. Whereas CLI and MDM requirements are effectuated by checking only a few examples of a particular handgun model, proving laws were effectuated by examining each firearm manufactured. Whereas proving laws supported the use of firearms for self-defense by ensuring the weapon worked properly and safely, the MDM requirement can actually work against the use of a handgun for self-defense because it will not fire without the magazine.What's to keep the state from saying "Fine, screw the roster. We'll just make sure each firearm sold is examined by a 'state appointed inspector' who would 'ensure it would not fail and that it could carry a shot over a certain distance' and who 'stamped passing firearms with the inspector's initials and the year '"? That would increase the cost of any firearm significantly, and be even worse than the roster. Take the microstamp win, which at least ensures new guns can make it to the market, without laying the groundwork for something worse than CLI and MDM requirements. |
#878
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Remember SCOTUS's instructions on the "How and Why" a law was passed in relation to firearms regulation. Proofing laws were put in place due to the immaturity & variety when it came to metallurgy in relation to firearms. They don't do that anymore because technology has advanced to the stage that it is no longer needed.
If the state wanted to put an inspector in Sig's plant to "verify" each gun as it goes through Sig's own tests, ok. That would cost what, $150k a year spread out through how many guns sold, hundreds of thousands. A buck or two per gun at most. |
#879
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Proving laws are no longer relevant. With all of the regulations on manufacturing and on safety standards, it's a nonsense argument that it is needed to ensure that a firearm is "safe." Not hard to show that this is merely another attempt to BAN entire classes of firearms and therefore prohibited based on Heller.
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#880
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Seems to be well written and shreds the states arguments. It will be interesting to see what the state submits tomorrow. I can't see the ninth sticking it's neck out on this. It would take some pretty amazing gymnastics to justify granting the AG what he wants. They may do it but an appeal to USSC might not be the attention they want. I think they will let this alone until the case is settled and appealed to them. They would have more room to get what the state wants then. We will see. I know others will disagree and that's their choice. We should be able to discuss differences of opinion without being idiots.
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