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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to:
Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees 6 4.62%
Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. 56 43.08%
Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight 56 43.08%
Other: explain what you are doing in a post 12 9.23%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1001  
Old 05-26-2022, 10:34 AM
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This thread probably makes people on the hate list to be cancelled


The Chapter 11 Reorganization allows Front Sight the opportunity to terminate the memberships of those in the organization who have in any way disparaged Front Sight, its management and staff, or aligned with the enemies of Front Sight.
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Last edited by hermosabeach; 05-26-2022 at 10:36 AM..
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  #1002  
Old 05-26-2022, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
This thread probably makes people on the hate list to be cancelled


The Chapter 11 Reorganization allows Front Sight the opportunity to terminate the memberships of those in the organization who have in any way disparaged Front Sight, its management and staff, or aligned with the enemies of Front Sight.
That’s fine. I haven’t said anything hateful. I was just out there for a private and had a great time. I’m just a bit hesitant moving forward given the filing of a chapter 11 and previously being told that you could use FS$ for course fees and that changing shortly after. Just need to wait it out a bit to see how things pan out.
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  #1003  
Old 05-26-2022, 6:35 PM
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Just finished 2-day Advanced Tactical Handgun today.

36 students on our range, 38 next range.

Great class, great instructors.....

It did get a bit hot

Chapter 11 bankruptcy (re-organization) is a process that must work it's way through the court system, with approval by the court for all significant plans.

It is a re-organization, which means that:

Frontsight is open for training.

Currently, they seem to be honoring memberships with the addition of a $100 per student per day fee.

Brad Ackman addressed the bankruptcy in the classroom yesterday morning. He referred you to Naish's e-mail regarding Frontsight's thoughts and reasons. He also stressed that this is now a formal court-mediated process, so there are actually no exact answers to the millions of member questions regarding the issues.

I will add that anything else posted here is pure speculation, conjecture, and members own ideas for what they think should happen....
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  #1004  
Old 05-28-2022, 2:33 AM
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Default $100 day

So your membership and FS bucks, gifts and everything is gone? Welcome to the club of founding members. If this works as izzy says he again gets everything he wants and is protected by the courts? $100 a day is not enough to keep the doors open and he will have to give the reorganization courts a viable plan out of bankruptcy. I see by the comments, you freebee guys don't like having to even pay $100 day. You were ok as long as it was free. chapter 11 will not make the fraud case from his investors go away. Who ever told him that were wrong, if that was the case every Ponzi case would just go to chapter 11? Its over Front site is done, and yes to make a class date, send money not knowing when you get there if they will even be open is foolish. The fat lady is going to sing soon!
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  #1005  
Old 05-28-2022, 4:27 PM
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I will be the largest unsecured creditor of Front Sight and I will be involved in the 341 Creditors Meeting. There are many things to be considered and will take time to work through it with all parties involved.

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  #1006  
Old 05-28-2022, 6:56 PM
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Dr. C, who are considered unsecured creditors, former students/members with huge FS credits, potential hotel/timeshare holdings and unassigned memberships?
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  #1007  
Old 05-28-2022, 7:53 PM
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Dr. C, who are considered unsecured creditors, former students/members with huge FS credits, potential hotel/timeshare holdings and unassigned memberships?
Yes correct on unsecured creditors and right now the secured creditors are the lenders

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  #1008  
Old 05-29-2022, 12:07 PM
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Interestingly enough I've written the concierge a couple times and filled out the forms and emailed them back to FS to register for future classes (was unable to register via MyFrontSight) and have yet to get any confirmation of being registered for those classes. Also have a future private I had successfully scheduled now says "Rejected" when I log into MyFrontSight account.
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  #1009  
Old 05-29-2022, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Interestingly enough I've written the concierge a couple times and filled out the forms and emailed them back to FS to register for future classes (was unable to register via MyFrontSight) and have yet to get any confirmation of being registered for those classes. Also have a future private I had successfully scheduled now says "Rejected" when I log into MyFrontSight account.
Just out of curiosity - have you "donated" since the stuff started happening earlier this year? I'm still getting multiple emails asking for financial help every day. My thought is to still take classes if the cost is reasonable. Hard to do that if they can't be scheduled.
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  #1010  
Old 05-30-2022, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Interestingly enough I've written the concierge a couple times and filled out the forms and emailed them back to FS to register for future classes (was unable to register via MyFrontSight) and have yet to get any confirmation of being registered for those classes. Also have a future private I had successfully scheduled now says "Rejected" when I log into MyFrontSight account.
I have 2 classes coming up that now say "Rejected" also
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  #1011  
Old 05-30-2022, 6:16 AM
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Has anyone been able to register for a class (and got confirmation) of a future class?
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  #1012  
Old 05-30-2022, 6:39 AM
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My understanding is that all classes starting after June 1st, even those that have been previously booked and "confirmed/accepted" have been automatically converted to "rejected" - just until you call up and pay the $100 per day.

Just finished at 2-day ATHG last week and have more classes booked in June.

At this point, Frontsight is OPEN, and they WANT you to attend class and pay $100 per day....

Per Naish's e-mail:

"So as a loyal and supportive member, how can you help?
Very simple.
1. Attend our courses. Here is a link to the schedule of courses throughout the rest of the year. Take a course! "
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  #1013  
Old 05-30-2022, 6:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
Has anyone been able to register for a class (and got confirmation) of a future class?
The only future class I had scheduled that was actually showing up as confirmed in MyFrontSight account was a 4-day private that I scheduled for the fall. I had also submitted requests for a class in July and another class in the fall (non-private classes) via the registration form that I emailed to the concierge (for whatever reason was unable to register through MyFrontSight despite Piazza's email that said "take a course") after the announcement came out that they were going to file bankruptcy and posted the class schedule for the remainder of the year. Never heard anything back about successful registration of those classes, they never appeared in MyFrontSight account, and that 4-day private that was previously scheduled and confirmed is now listed as "Rejected" in my profile.

I was recently out there for a 4-day private and as fas as the classes and instruction were concerned it was business as usual, but it still didn't feel right. Think there were only like 200 students on site that weekend, and it just didn't have the vibe and energy I remembered when the place was full. Pro Shop was sparsely stocked, and what they did have left was marked down/on sale. Brad Ackman was actually on site, and he was conducting the short intros and speeches that are given before the instructional/educational videos given during lunch and at the end of the day, leading me to believe that they've really cut back on staffing. They are very strict about what ammo they let you purchase with Front Sight Bucks. They would not let me purchase ammo for my private until the Range Master conducting that private went to the ammo bunker with me and told them how many rounds I needed. I have a lot of FS$, but there's nothing you can really spend them on.

I've been currently seeking out (and finding) other options that are closer to home (found some reputable outfits in the San Jose and Sacramento area) and just going to sit back and see how things unfold. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread I'm just a bit hesitant to pre-pay the $100/day fee when there's no real answer on what the state of affairs will be and what the future holds, and I'm sure they wouldn't be issuing any refunds if those future classes were cancelled.

Increased costs for gas and/or airfare combined with lodging, having to take extra days off before and after class for travel days and the fact that FS now won't let you use Front Sight Bucks toward the daily $100 fee (when they previously stated that they would allow that) means this is not really looking like something that makes sense at the moment financially. For the same or less money overall once you factor in all the additional costs besides the $100 daily fee, I can take a 2-day class with another vetted and reputable outfit that's within an hour or hour-and-a-half drive from me for around $250/day, not have to fly and rent a car or drive 8 hours, pay for lodging, etc and not have to take the extra time off from work.
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  #1014  
Old 05-30-2022, 11:47 AM
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I have a private next month that I booked months ago. Saturday afternoon F.S. called me and wanted the $100 a day for the class. I gave them my C.C. info. over the phone and I specifically remember the lady saying that she would now change my status from "rejected" to "Approved".

So, yeah, if you don't fork over the $100, it seems they automatically show you as "rejected".
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  #1015  
Old 05-31-2022, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by VolvoWrench View Post
I have a private next month that I booked months ago. Saturday afternoon F.S. called me and wanted the $100 a day for the class. I gave them my C.C. info. over the phone and I specifically remember the lady saying that she would now change my status from "rejected" to "Approved".

So, yeah, if you don't fork over the $100, it seems they automatically show you as "rejected".
My private is in late September. Hesitant to fork over the $400 now. I totally understand having to pay in advance since this is what you’d do for a class at any other place. It’s just the uncertainty of that class actually being held 4 months from now that has me hesitant.
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  #1016  
Old 05-31-2022, 2:57 PM
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Next year it will be $150 or $200/day. Mark my words!
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  #1017  
Old 05-31-2022, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
My private is in late September. Hesitant to fork over the $400 now. I totally understand having to pay in advance since this is what you’d do for a class at any other place. It’s just the uncertainty of that class actually being held 4 months from now that has me hesitant.
I wouldn't pay for something that far in advance. Just my $.02
It will be interesting to see how many of us "$100-a-day" people are on the property for the 2 days I'll be there.

Also feel bad for the people and businesses of Pahrump if F.S. goes under.
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  #1018  
Old 06-01-2022, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by VolvoWrench View Post
I wouldn't pay for something that far in advance. Just my $.02
It will be interesting to see how many of us "$100-a-day" people are on the property for the 2 days I'll be there.

Also feel bad for the people and businesses of Pahrump if F.S. goes under.
Agreed.

I will be going later in June with my 15 year old son. Decided to pay the fee since I am already committed to the trip and my son has been looking forward to the course. When I talked to Front Sight, they said I could pay now or pay when I get there. I think most credit cards allow you to dispute a charge and get a refund for up to 60 days, So if anyone does pay in advance, it seems that it would make sense to wait until you are at least within that window of time.
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  #1019  
Old 06-01-2022, 6:04 PM
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I didn't get any emails today from Front Sight.........


ETA: in some of his last emails he said he might not be able to email. Curious. Due to bankruptcy agreement? Something else?
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  #1020  
Old 06-02-2022, 5:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
I didn't get any emails today from Front Sight.........


ETA: in some of his last emails he said he might not be able to email. Curious. Due to bankruptcy agreement? Something else?
I believe he's being advised not to send anymore for a while as it complicates the Court Procedures since he has to have Accurate Financial Records submitted by June 15th. HARD DATE per the Court. SHE WAS TOLD DON'T BE COMING BACK FOR AN EXTENSION AS YOU WON'T RECEIVE IT.
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  #1021  
Old 06-02-2022, 6:03 AM
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I believe he's being advised not to send anymore for a while as it complicates the Court Procedures since he has to have Accurate Financial Records submitted by June 15th. HARD DATE per the Court. SHE WAS TOLD DON'T BE COMING BACK FOR AN EXTENSION AS YOU WON'T RECEIVE IT.
Thanks for the updates from the court. I don’t know how we’d know what was really going on there otherwise.
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  #1022  
Old 06-02-2022, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Chicago View Post
I believe he's being advised not to send anymore for a while as it complicates the Court Procedures since he has to have Accurate Financial Records submitted by June 15th. HARD DATE per the Court. SHE WAS TOLD DON'T BE COMING BACK FOR AN EXTENSION AS YOU WON'T RECEIVE IT.
Thanks very much! I have a fair sized chunk of $$$$ involved also. I'm hoping they can come up with a functional plan going forward.
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  #1023  
Old 06-02-2022, 8:00 AM
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What I hope for is at least some preservation of membership achievement records, e.g. the ability to take higher level classes, and privileges, e.g. classes currently allowed, in the surviving entity.

As far as cost of classes, it’s up to each one of us to decide if it’s worth the training. Every member’s situation is different.
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  #1024  
Old 06-02-2022, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Chicago View Post
I believe he's being advised not to send anymore for a while as it complicates the Court Procedures since he has to have Accurate Financial Records submitted by June 15th. HARD DATE per the Court. SHE WAS TOLD DON'T BE COMING BACK FOR AN EXTENSION AS YOU WON'T RECEIVE IT.
Well there goes that theory, I just received an email...actually two.
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  #1025  
Old 06-02-2022, 9:52 PM
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Got a notice of proceedings via email tonight
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  #1026  
Old 06-03-2022, 7:23 AM
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Got a notice of proceedings via email tonight
Stretto is sending them out via email to all 263,000 Members and 400 Former Members. So if you have an old email on file or none then they need to contact Stretto to be included on the Notifications of the Chapter 11 Proceedings.
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Old 06-03-2022, 7:29 AM
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Stretto is sending them out via email to all 263,000 Members and 400 Former Members. So if you have an old email on file or none then they need to contact Stretto to be included on the Notifications of the Chapter 11 Proceedings.
Who is Stretto representing?
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  #1028  
Old 06-03-2022, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
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Stretto is sending them out via email to all 263,000 Members and 400 Former Members. So if you have an old email on file or none then they need to contact Stretto to be included on the Notifications of the Chapter 11 Proceedings.
Dr Chi, you are far more involved it seems than most of us. Your insights whenever you can provide them would be extremely helpful. I did just read through some of the current and previous filings with the court (there are a ton) and found some interesting tidbits.

Do you agree that they are in worse financial status than any of the members were led to believe? It was a big red flag to me that they were using the merchant account (cc processing) to do payroll.

Do you anticipate that the membership based on fees paid for future services will be creditors in the case based on their investments in FS?
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Old 06-03-2022, 1:58 PM
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After reading more filings, there are more interesting facts to be found. Assuming the truth is somewhere in between what FS presented and what the creditors presented regarding the financial aspects of FS, I did find it extremely interesting regarding the DIP financing. FS requested approval to get a 5M loan to run the business for the 13 weeks of the hearing process. That would have figured out to approx 20M a year to run FS. After the motions, they were granted 600k. Which when extrapolated to a year is about 2.5M. WTF. If it really is only 2.5 or 3M a year to run FS and they are losing money, this really was a scam on the membership. The fact that they don't have 600k is crazy. Moreover, they are going to get a loan for the 600k at 9.5% for seven months. If I would have known that and had the security of using the property for security and being first paid out of the BK case, I would given them the money... LOL. Perhaps the good doctor should have been more transparent with the membership about being in extremis he may have avoided all of this.
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Old 06-03-2022, 10:25 PM
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You guys remember reading this...?

Quote:
To dispel some of the most ridiculous lies being spread by our enemies about me, Brad Ackman, our supportive staff, and our great members let me assure you that Brad has not come out of the closet as being gay. He does not hate women. He is not the new owner of Front Sight and he has not abandoned his duties. He does not support nor has he initiated a hostile takeover of Front Sight. I have not spent all of Front Sight's money on street drugs and patronizing brothels. In fact, I have NEVER used ANY recreational drugs and at the age of 62 do not take ANY prescription medication either. I have never even seen the front door of a brothel let alone ever walked inside one. No, our members have not descended on the offices or homes of any lender armed with guns and threatened anyone. No, our employees have not walked off the job or threatened a mutiny to take over Front Sight. As I said, ridiculously slanderous, libelous and defamatory comments.

The lies our enemies are spreading about financial impropriety are equally outrageous so here is the TRUTH...
Over the last 25 years Front Sight has collected $147,784,303.10 from our members. With this amount of money collected Front Sight has done the following:
We have delivered (meaning actually provided the courses to individual students) $260,210,000 dollars of retail value in Four Day Courses.
We have delivered (meaning actually provided the courses to individual students) $122,663,000 dollars of retail value in Two Day Courses.
We have delivered (meaning actually provided the courses to individual students) $80,000,000 dollars of retail value in Private Training Courses.
This is a total of $462,873,000 dollars in training courses provided at retail value to members, their family, and friends.
In addition, Front Sight has delivered 54,683 guns as bonuses to members for their participation, along with assorted gear bonuses, hats and membership cards totaling over $30,000,000 dollars.
In addition, Front Sight built the world's largest and best firearms training facility appraised at over $25,000,000 dollars.
In addition, Front Sight has created the greatest firearms training instructional staff and support staff in the industry and during the last 25 years, have paid them over $100,000,000 dollars. I am not part of the instructional or support staff. NONE of this money was ever paid to me.
In addition, over the last 25 years Front Sight has spent well over $10,000,000 in assorted legal expenses.
If you are a business owner, you know there are dozens of other daily expenses that during 25 years add up to tens of millions of dollars more in money spent delivering value to our members and students.
In addition, since Front Sight is an LLC, and I am the sole member, all Front Sight profit must flow down to me, and I am responsible for paying the tax on the profit. Front Sight has been profitable EVERY YEAR. As a result, most of the money that our enemies slanderously claim I pulled from Front Sight was to PAY FRONT SIGHT'S TAXES!
In fact, over the last four years, while I have been fighting the enemies attempting to destroy Front Sight and fighting to protect your membership, I actually placed $2,275,802 (two million, two hundred seventy five thousand, eight hundred two dollars) more into Front Sight than I took out. Meaning over the last four years, EVERY PENNY I took out of Front Sight, even to pay Front Sight's taxes, I put back into Front Sight PLUS $2,275,802 dollars MORE! In 2022, I have not taken a dime from Front Sight. I'm now the ONLY person working for Front Sight to win this battle against our enemies and save your membership who is NOT being paid.
Add all these numbers up and you can see that accusations of financial impropriety are ludicrous. Those attempting to turn our members, staff, vendors, and even potential lenders against us and destroy Front Sight's ability to fight the wrongful foreclosure action with their nefarious slander, libel and defamation, know that what they are saying is not true. Front Sight has done an amazingly remarkable and ethical job in creating the greatest firearms training facility and organization in the world, while providing you and your family with a huge Exchange in Abundance for the last 25 years.
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  #1031  
Old 06-04-2022, 7:45 AM
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After reading more filings, there are more interesting facts to be found. Assuming the truth is somewhere in between what FS presented and what the creditors presented regarding the financial aspects of FS, I did find it extremely interesting regarding the DIP financing. FS requested approval to get a 5M loan to run the business for the 13 weeks of the hearing process. That would have figured out to approx 20M a year to run FS. After the motions, they were granted 600k. Which when extrapolated to a year is about 2.5M. WTF. If it really is only 2.5 or 3M a year to run FS and they are losing money, this really was a scam on the membership. The fact that they don't have 600k is crazy. Moreover, they are going to get a loan for the 600k at 9.5% for seven months. If I would have known that and had the security of using the property for security and being first paid out of the BK case, I would given them the money... LOL. Perhaps the good doctor should have been more transparent with the membership about being in extremis he may have avoided all of this.
You conveniently forget that when Piazza speaks or puts something on the web, he's lying. I'd keep that in mind.
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  #1032  
Old 06-04-2022, 9:28 AM
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the fact that Dr. P. only talks about what he took in the last four years is telling when he states revenue and expenses for the last 25 years. Classic. I love this from the creditors filings:
Tax returns and financial statements of the Debtor reflected that in excess of $20 million dollars was disbursed to Piazza and/or his entities in the form of an interest free note receivable to shareholder and shareholder distributions. In particular, from 2016 to 2019, the Debtor paid in excess of a million dollars for luxury or antique cars and approximately $15 million dollars was
disbursed to Piazza without indication of any apparent purpose or benefit to the Debtor,

Or this
Through discovery, the Lender Parties received Front Sight’s financial records, including tax returns and bank statements, which demonstrated that the Piazzas, either individually or through the VNV Dynasty Trusts, were paying themselves millions of dollars a year from Front Sight’s bank accounts. In addition, the Front Sight bank statements and tax returns also revealed that the Piazzas were using the Front Sight bank accounts to purchase luxury automobiles for themselves because the luxury automobiles were never listed on Front Sight’s tax returns but were listed on Ignatius Piazza’s personal financial statements. Id. p. 5, l. 20-28 and Exhibit 10.2

A forensic accountant issued an expert opinion on May 27, 2021 summarizing and detailing the evidence of the millions of dollars the Piazzas took out of Front Sight’s bank accounts from 2016-2019. Id. p. 6, l. 1-7 and Exhibit 11.3
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  #1033  
Old 06-04-2022, 9:53 AM
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Wink

As I said...
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True wealth is time. Time to enjoy life.

Life's journey is not to arrive safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy schit...what a ride"!!

Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. Mark Twain

A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog.
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  #1034  
Old 06-04-2022, 10:38 AM
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Front sight going bankrupt? Who could have possibly predicted this happening…
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  #1035  
Old 06-04-2022, 4:30 PM
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I just logged into my front sight account and noticed they changed my membership to a founders membership. Also saw that it'll cost me $100 per day to take a class. I haven't used my membership yet was planning this summer. I was told it was free. I paid $1000 for it. Did I get scammed and lost that money?
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  #1036  
Old 06-04-2022, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ShootTargetFun View Post
I just logged into my front sight account and noticed they changed my membership to a founders membership. Also saw that it'll cost me $100 per day to take a class. I haven't used my membership yet was planning this summer. I was told it was free. I paid $1000 for it. Did I get scammed and lost that money?
Yes. And yes.
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  #1037  
Old 06-04-2022, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootTargetFun View Post
I just logged into my front sight account and noticed they changed my membership to a founders membership. Also saw that it'll cost me $100 per day to take a class. I haven't used my membership yet was planning this summer. I was told it was free. I paid $1000 for it. Did I get scammed and lost that money?
Front Sight has gone into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy and part of the initial business plan submitted to the court is for them to generate more revenue.
Hence the $100 a day fee.

When you purchased the membership, yes the training was completely free for as long as possible but that is no longer the case.
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Old 06-04-2022, 5:46 PM
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That's how they pitched it? After your initial membership fee training will be "free for as long as possible? "
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  #1039  
Old 06-04-2022, 5:51 PM
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That's how they pitched it? After your initial membership fee training will be "free for as long as possible? "
Lol. No. Iggy told us all that training would be free forever

In other words he was, is and apparently always has been a liar.

And he siphoned tens of millions of dollars out of the FS coffers and bought himself homes and cars.

He should rot in jail.
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  #1040  
Old 06-04-2022, 6:42 PM
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Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC was a company that sold lifetime memberships which included Free training.

Many of us realized for many years that this business model may not last forever.

Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC honored these lifetime free memberships, up until the day that it went bankrupt. "Lifetime" refers to the members lifetime and/or the company's lifetime. Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC's "life" has ended.

The Bankruptcy court will evaluate all of the filings presented by Frontsight, Las Vegas Land Development LLC, and any other affected parties and render decisions - including how pre-bankruptcy petition memberships will be treated.

Just factual, no emotion.....

P.S. - I had a great day of Private training at Frontsight TODAY. Tactical Rifle and pistol with Wyatt as RM
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