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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #201  
Old 11-28-2022, 9:48 AM
HKAllTheThings HKAllTheThings is offline
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I hope we keep responding to this thread so it never dies
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  #202  
Old 11-28-2022, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings View Post
I hope we keep responding to this thread so it never dies
This thing's got legs, haha!!
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  #203  
Old 11-28-2022, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mps9 View Post
I really wanted a Mini 14 for something of a practical semi-auto that can do just about anything without looking menacing. After a lot of phone calls found one in stock quite a ways away for $1400. Went and handled it and immediately realized it wasn't for me, I found it heavier than expected. I'm still looking for that practical M1 carbine type of a rifle but something new/modern. I'm realizing it may be the 9mm PCC for me.
Just to keep the thread going Now we can draw in the 9mm PPC vs the .223/5.56 thing. Good for another 50 pages. Add in the 5.7 people as pointed out below and it should be good until 2023 at least.

The carbines often aren't much lighter although depending on what you get your wallet won't be much lighter either. A 9mm PCC can't really do much compared to any .223/5.56 regardless of what is shooting it (AR or Mini or..) It's a 9mm and it's outclassed. Of course, that depends on what you define as can do just about anything.

You aren't likely to save weight by going to a 9mm carbine over lightweight ARs but you will give up a lot - range, power, cost of ammo (some cases). Even in the AR, a 9mm is way outclassed by an AR in a rifle cartridge.

That M1 Carbine style but newer is something like the Ruger Carbine but its similar in style to the Mini. Ruger does have the new carbine in 5.7.

Why not just get a M1 Carbine? For the money of the Mini or a better quality AR in 9mm, you could have the M1.

When people say they want this but more like that, what they really want is that and not this. Get that.


















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  #204  
Old 11-28-2022, 11:32 AM
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I can hardly wait for part 2!!
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  #205  
Old 11-28-2022, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SharedShots View Post
Just to keep the thread going Now we can draw in the 9mm PPC vs the .223/5.56 thing. Good for another 50 pages. Add in the 5.7 people as pointed out below and it should be good until 2023 at least.

The carbines often aren't much lighter although depending on what you get your wallet won't be much lighter either. A 9mm PCC can't really do much compared to any .223/5.56 regardless of what is shooting it (AR or Mini or..) It's a 9mm and it's outclassed. Of course, that depends on what you define as can do just about anything.

You aren't likely to save weight by going to a 9mm carbine over lightweight ARs but you will give up a lot - range, power, cost of ammo (some cases). Even in the AR, a 9mm is way outclassed by an AR in a rifle cartridge.

That M1 Carbine style but newer is something like the Ruger Carbine but its similar in style to the Mini. Ruger does have the new carbine in 5.7.

Why not just get a M1 Carbine? For the money of the Mini or a better quality AR in 9mm, you could have the M1.

When people say they want this but more like that, what they really want is that and not this. Get that.
haha yep this thread isn't going to die anytime soon now! When you say a Ruger Carbine, are you talking about their 9mm PCC or the LC Carbine in 5.56 that looks like an AR?

As for why not get the M1 Carbine, it's just too old (spare parts, reliability?) and the 30 caliber ammo is expensive/hard to find. On the other hand, the 9mm in a carbine is pretty good as a 100 yard rifle with plentiful and relatively cheap ammo yet far more capable than say a 22LR as an all around homestead/practical rifle. At least that was my thought process. My 12ga is also very practical but man after 20 rounds or so the fun is gone with its recoil (local range only allows slugs).
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  #206  
Old 11-28-2022, 12:27 PM
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Part 2: Why have an AR15 when the M1 Garand is obviously better!

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I can hardly wait for part 2!!
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  #207  
Old 11-28-2022, 12:33 PM
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CA State Prisons got them as main rifle and they are decades old.

Story was they got some low-bid deal way back then.

I'd be thinking AR-15 would have lower TCO due to many guards already well trained from military.
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  #208  
Old 11-28-2022, 1:03 PM
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Part 2: Why have an AR15 when the M1 Garand is obviously better!
Ppfffht. The original USMC nickname for the Garand was “jammin’ Jenny.” You couldn’t pay me to use one of those semiauto pieces of crap. ‘03 Springfields are the only real choice for a dependable fightin’ rifle.

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  #209  
Old 11-28-2022, 1:32 PM
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haha yep this thread isn't going to die anytime soon now! When you say a Ruger Carbine, are you talking about their 9mm PCC or the LC Carbine in 5.56 that looks like an AR?

As for why not get the M1 Carbine, it's just too old (spare parts, reliability?) and the 30 caliber ammo is expensive/hard to find. On the other hand, the 9mm in a carbine is pretty good as a 100 yard rifle with plentiful and relatively cheap ammo yet far more capable than say a 22LR as an all around homestead/practical rifle. At least that was my thought process. My 12ga is also very practical but man after 20 rounds or so the fun is gone with its recoil (local range only allows slugs).
I was referring to both. The Ruger PC Carbine fires the 9mm or 40SW pistol cartridges. That LC Carbine shoots the 5.7 cartridge, that is a 223 bullet but not even close to a 223/5.56 cartridge, think of it more like a super 22mag but centerfire. Its still a pistol type cartridge with limited range compared to the 223/5.56 cartridge.

I guess it comes down to what you define as "do it all" means. If the ranges you're thinking about reach out to say 100 or maybe 150 yards, the 9mm is passable but unless you're shooting paper you're starting to get into the serious diminishing returns area and the firearm you're using has no practical advantages over something like an AR in 223/5.56 or even something like 300 Blackout. Those are also available in the Mini-14 BTW, the Mini in 300 Blackout is pure fun to shoot and it cycles both super and subsonics just fine (at least in my experience). Some will say the 300 Blackout is only good for suppressed guns but not really, the supers are throwing bullets about 3 times the weight, larger caliber and quite a bit more energy than any 9mm and the 5.7 isn't even on the table.

Getting parts for something isn't as hard and is often said on the Internet and any decent quality rifle/carbine isn't going through a lot of parts anyway. If you are plinking or shooting a few hundred rounds a weeks, if you are going through parts that fast, get better parts.

I thought about the 5.7 Ruger if it became available here but then thought, why? I have enough cartridges to reload for and the lesser powder charge compared to the 223/5.56 isn't enough of a difference to make one. If I need more than say the 22 mag or 17 hmr then moving to the 5.7 isn't really doing all that much. The 22 mag/17 cases stay where they land. I have tons of 5.7 cases from range pickups, now I use them as targets for indoor airsoft.

All said, you indicated you want something lighter than the Mini. Sure but you're likely to save perhaps a pound tops. Eat a good lunch and there is your pound.

I can say that shooting the Mini in 5.56 and 300 Blackout is like night and day, very different. Give me the 300 Blackout any day and with that I can shoot anything from 110 HPs to 220 grainers all from the same rifle and just by swapping magazines. You can do that with an AR too so it comes down to which you prefer and it's not really this oh, this one is better than the other, they are different. All this BS about which is better is just talk as each as something the other does not, it's about what you like and not what someone else says is best.




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  #210  
Old 11-28-2022, 2:10 PM
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^ definitely good points to consider, thanks!
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  #211  
Old 11-28-2022, 3:55 PM
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I meant to say the 300 Blackout throws bullets about 3 times the weight than the 223/5.56, a lot more than the 5.7 and energy wise the 9mm isn't even on the same playing field.

The 9mm is a larger caliber 35 vs the 30 0f the Blackout. The supers in the 300BO are sometimes similar in weight to the 9mm but the velocities are total different.

As with all these things, figure out what you really want out of it and that will lead you to better choices.




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  #212  
Old 11-28-2022, 3:55 PM
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My Rugers: The top is the 1978 5,56 Mini-14 GB Law Enforcement model, next is My 584 series 2021 Mini-30, Next is my 2021 Mini-14 in 300 BLK, then 1972 vintage 10-22, and finally my Ruger PCC 9mm.

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  #213  
Old 11-28-2022, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Verdha603 View Post
You and I have different ways of clearing malfunctions then.

I'll put myself into your "spindly armed category" because almost every malfunction I have with a rifle I take the rifle off my shoulder, lock the stock into the crook of my elbow, and clear with the ejection port facing me, courtesy of being a wrong handed shooter. My reasoning is because that allows me to visually identify the malfunction to see whether I need to just rack it and go or whether I need to start removing the magazine and racking it a few more times to go. The idea of locking the bolt back on a malfunction for any rifle doesn't even cross my mind unless it's bad enough that I have to effectively take my rifle "out of the fight" to deal with the problem.

The whole "over the top" or "under the bottom" doesn't apply to my shooting when my off hand doesn't have to go around the rifle to grab the charging handle on a Mini/AK/M1/what have you, while the AR I just accept I have to rotate the rifle to access the charging handle, with the only significant difference being I have to rotate the rifle 90 degree's to rack a standard charging handle or 45 degrees if it's an ambi charging handle.

I'm also not applying this to a CA-featureless rifle, but a "normal" AR vs Mini rifle.
OK; you obviously haven't been to any Shooting School for training. All of them teach basically the same procedures for Clearing Malfunctions on the 3 most common Semi Auto Rifle Systems. IE AR, AK and Mini 14-30 which is the same as the Garand or M14 style guns..

There are 3 basic malfunctions and the first two use exactly the same clearing procedure.

Type 1: Failure to Fire: This is caused by either an Empty Chamber or a Dead Round. You will get a click when you pull the trigger,(also known as the loudest sound in a gun fight!) To clear it you tap the bottom of the magazine to insure it is seated completely and the next round will be stripped off as the bolt closes. Then Rack the Bolt, while tipping the gun to the right to insure that the offending round is ejected or thrown clear. In the case of an AK, Mini 14 or M14 or any platform that rocks the magazine into position, you will grab the magazine and forcefully rock it back so that it is fully seated in the gun. If you would have checked and insured that your magazine was fully seated by pulling down on it when you inserted it, the only way a Type 1 could occur is with a dead round.

Type 2: Failure to Eject: Also known as the "Stove Pipe" In this case You will have a "Dead Trigger" and there will be a spent cartridge hanging out the side that failed to clear the bolt when discarded. The Bolt is held out of battery by the spent cartridge. You will clear it the same way as the Type 1 Malfunction. Tap, Rack, Flip!

Type 3: Failure to Extract: This can also be called a "Double Feed" where a round is stuck in the chamber and another round is trying to be stuffed in behind it, or the bolt strips two rounds off simultaneously. You will have a "Dead Trigger" but you will not have brass hanging out so you must tip the gun up to see what is going on. The the first thing you must do, no matter the platform, is lock the Bolt Open. Then drop the Magazine which may or may not clear it. Then you Rack the Bolt several times to extract the stuck round, then insert a Loaded Magazine, and rack the bolt again to make the gun ready to fire. Sometimes you may need to stick your "Support Hand Fingers" into the Mag Well to clear out any cartridges than haven't fallen free on their own. You use your Support Hand to get it away from the bolt release, or not take out your trigger finger if the bolt inadvertently drops and gets you. This is unpleasant no matter which hand gets caught, but you can't really fight very well with no trigger finger.

These procedures are common to virtually all Semi Auto Rifles and also with most Semi Auto Pistols, and Semi Auto and Pump Action Shotguns are very similar.

All guns malfunction and to think otherwise is naïve at best, and downright stupid in the worst case.

Hope this helps with your understanding of these critical skills! It will take lots of practice to be able to do any of these on demand and more so Under Pressure....

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-28-2022 at 6:17 PM..
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  #214  
Old 11-29-2022, 12:01 AM
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  #215  
Old 11-29-2022, 6:18 AM
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That was good Trapped…^^^^
2 cups of coffee…..excellent information.
Thanks, Bob
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  #216  
Old 11-29-2022, 7:20 AM
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"Duran Duran" and "Snypa" lol.....
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  #217  
Old 11-29-2022, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
OK; you obviously haven't been to any Shooting School for training. All of them teach basically the same procedures for Clearing Malfunctions on the 3 most common Semi Auto Rifle Systems. IE AR, AK and Mini 14-30 which is the same as the Garand or M14 style guns..

There are 3 basic malfunctions and the first two use exactly the same clearing procedure.

Type 1: Failure to Fire: This is caused by either an Empty Chamber or a Dead Round. You will get a click when you pull the trigger,(also known as the loudest sound in a gun fight!) To clear it you tap the bottom of the magazine to insure it is seated completely and the next round will be stripped off as the bolt closes. Then Rack the Bolt, while tipping the gun to the right to insure that the offending round is ejected or thrown clear. In the case of an AK, Mini 14 or M14 or any platform that rocks the magazine into position, you will grab the magazine and forcefully rock it back so that it is fully seated in the gun. If you would have checked and insured that your magazine was fully seated by pulling down on it when you inserted it, the only way a Type 1 could occur is with a dead round.

Type 2: Failure to Eject: Also known as the "Stove Pipe" In this case You will have a "Dead Trigger" and there will be a spent cartridge hanging out the side that failed to clear the bolt when discarded. The Bolt is held out of battery by the spent cartridge. You will clear it the same way as the Type 1 Malfunction. Tap, Rack, Flip!

Type 3: Failure to Extract: This can also be called a "Double Feed" where a round is stuck in the chamber and another round is trying to be stuffed in behind it, or the bolt strips two rounds off simultaneously. You will have a "Dead Trigger" but you will not have brass hanging out so you must tip the gun up to see what is going on. The the first thing you must do, no matter the platform, is lock the Bolt Open. Then drop the Magazine which may or may not clear it. Then you Rack the Bolt several times to extract the stuck round, then insert a Loaded Magazine, and rack the bolt again to make the gun ready to fire. Sometimes you may need to stick your "Support Hand Fingers" into the Mag Well to clear out any cartridges than haven't fallen free on their own. You use your Support Hand to get it away from the bolt release, or not take out your trigger finger if the bolt inadvertently drops and gets you. This is unpleasant no matter which hand gets caught, but you can't really fight very well with no trigger finger.

These procedures are common to virtually all Semi Auto Rifles and also with most Semi Auto Pistols, and Semi Auto and Pump Action Shotguns are very similar.

All guns malfunction and to think otherwise is naïve at best, and downright stupid in the worst case.

Hope this helps with your understanding of these critical skills! It will take lots of practice to be able to do any of these on demand and more so Under Pressure....

Randy
Randy,

I am already familiar with the 3 basic malfunctions, courtesy of the US Army, albeit I do deviate from those exact procedures due to disagreements with the prioritization of how to best clear a malfunction.

For all malfunctions, I opt to not tip the rifle to the right when ejecting the round due to wanting to visually verify the malfunction has been corrected before returning to a firing position, something I want to do to both identify what malfunction has occurred and whether my corrective action has resolved the issue before returning to a firing position. I've seen too many occasions of Soldier's standing there looking baffled on the firing line because they haven't properly identified what malfunction they had on their hands and thus took the improper action to fix it, and sometimes even making the malfunction worse, that it has made it a habit (for better or worse) for me to want to visually see what the problem is before I start to correct it.

The other significant deviation is I frankly have to disagree with locking the bolt back as the first thing you must do, but rather view locking the bolt back as the lowest priority in a Type 3 malfunction; upon identifying the malfunction, I prioritize removing the magazine and racking the bolt multiple times, and only after that has failed do I resort to locking the bolt back (if able, since I certainly can't lock the bolt back with either of my AK's) and using my support hand to physically clear the obstruction. I have defaulted to this since depending on the rifle I often find locking the bolt back takes more time to fix the problem (on account of becoming a two handed affair on certain rifles) than simply ejecting the magazine and racking the charging handle a couple times to clear the malfunction.
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  #218  
Old 11-29-2022, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mps9 View Post
I really wanted a Mini 14 for something of a practical semi-auto that can do just about anything without looking menacing. After a lot of phone calls found one in stock quite a ways away for $1400.
I always found mine handy if I didn't try to bolt too many do-dads onto it like a steel clamping AIMTECH scout rail and holosite or whatever. I wish mine still had the pre-2K Choate Skeleton PG stock with factory irons on it - that was a great handy config.

Prices these days are nuts in my opinion. If they were still $500-$600 I would pick up another one... but a $700-$800 LaRue Stealth upper or "Accuracy Special" they have available now will do under half minute groups with decent factory ammo - no handloads or action massaging or barrel whip reducer needed. You could take 20 of them off the production line and they would all average sub .40" groups at 100 yards according to Mark LaRue, and I believe him.

Not that Mini-14's are not cool, but I doubt any factory stock rifles are sub MOA... but they don't have to be. I'm sure people are not firing them over 200 yards in or outside a prison guard tower.
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  #219  
Old 11-29-2022, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imarangemaster View Post
My Rugers: The top is the 1978 5,56 Mini-14 GB Law Enforcement model, next is My 584 series 2021 Mini-30, Next is my 2021 Mini-14 in 300 BLK, then 1972 vintage 10-22, and finally my Ruger PCC 9mm.
All cool looking... especially the Mini's. Making me want another one. Knock it off. I have an older one and a 10/22 and a couple of the PC Carbines, plus revolvers, MKII's and P series auto. I am definitely not a Ruger hater.
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  #220  
Old 11-29-2022, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by crufflers View Post
I always found mine handy if I didn't try to bolt too many do-dads onto it like a steel clamping AIMTECH scout rail and holosite or whatever. I wish mine still had the pre-2K Choate Skeleton PG stock with factory irons on it - that was a great handy config.

Prices these days are nuts in my opinion. If they were still $500-$600 I would pick up another one... but a $700-$800 LaRue Stealth upper or "Accuracy Special" they have available now will do under half minute groups with decent factory ammo - no handloads or action massaging or barrel whip reducer needed. You could take 20 of them off the production line and they would all average sub .40" groups at 100 yards according to Mark LaRue, and I believe him.

Not that Mini-14's are not cool, but I doubt any factory stock rifles are sub MOA... but they don't have to be. I'm sure people are not firing them over 200 yards in or outside a prison guard tower.
Before the bunny butt sniffing, leaf licking, tree hugging, friends of the chipmunks shut down out 200 yard range, my Minis all easily whacked the 12" 200 yard gong every time.
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  #221  
Old 11-29-2022, 4:04 PM
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I've owned three Mini 14 rifles; first was an early production series 180 the other two stainless pre 580s. My current one is a 185 (pictured)



I never had any of them malfunction when used with quality Ruger or aftermarket magazines. When I got the series 180 about 1975 the only option for magazines over 5 rounds were aftermarket 20 rounders that mimicked the shape of an M14 magazine. They worked just fine. Interestingly I bought some Original Equipment brand magazines from CDNN several years ago that looked exactly like those 1975 magazines and perform equally well.

I've said before that the biggest hinderance to accurate shooting with Mini 14s pre 580s was the sights. A Tech rear sight does wonders.

In the service we had many M16A1s that didn't feed reliably because of the magazines. Some brands were known to be trouble and some were known to work fine. Any detachable magazine firearm is at the mercy of the magazine for proper feeding.
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  #222  
Old 11-29-2022, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Verdha603 View Post
Randy,

I am already familiar with the 3 basic malfunctions, courtesy of the US Army, albeit I do deviate from those exact procedures due to disagreements with the prioritization of how to best clear a malfunction.

For all malfunctions, I opt to not tip the rifle to the right when ejecting the round due to wanting to visually verify the malfunction has been corrected before returning to a firing position, something I want to do to both identify what malfunction has occurred and whether my corrective action has resolved the issue before returning to a firing position. I've seen too many occasions of Soldier's standing there looking baffled on the firing line because they haven't properly identified what malfunction they had on their hands and thus took the improper action to fix it, and sometimes even making the malfunction worse, that it has made it a habit (for better or worse) for me to want to visually see what the problem is before I start to correct it.

The other significant deviation is I frankly have to disagree with locking the bolt back as the first thing you must do, but rather view locking the bolt back as the lowest priority in a Type 3 malfunction; upon identifying the malfunction, I prioritize removing the magazine and racking the bolt multiple times, and only after that has failed do I resort to locking the bolt back (if able, since I certainly can't lock the bolt back with either of my AK's) and using my support hand to physically clear the obstruction. I have defaulted to this since depending on the rifle I often find locking the bolt back takes more time to fix the problem (on account of becoming a two handed affair on certain rifles) than simply ejecting the magazine and racking the charging handle a couple times to clear the malfunction.
I have to ask, how are you visually identifying malfunctions in the dark? There is nothing to view, it's going to be done by feel so just how does it all happen without locking the bolt to the rear and then feeling for empty chamber, in the case of the AR, no round or case in the charging handle guide slot or just about anything else?

I'd be very interested in your malfunction clearing sequences when it's dark and you can't see the malfunction, you just know there is one.

IF you happen to have a light source, just how are you operating that, using your support hand to clear a malfunction and not locking the bolt to the rear?




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Old 11-29-2022, 5:25 PM
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If only the Mini was (fill in the blank for price). Yeah, if only all the other guns were also priced what they were 20 years ago too.

I'd run out and grab that model 48 SW for $214 in a heartbeat too.

New ones aren't $400-500 anymore and Ruger isn't going to drop the price when they can sell all they make at current prices.

No worries, the same people saying they are too expensive today will say the same thing next year, and the next and the next. Some will say, if only the Mini-14 was $1000 they'd buy one.

Don't hear too many people who already have them complaining about the prices of today. Just ask the guy who paid $600 for his Mini if he cares if the prices are now $1000 and more.

Value is what someone is willing to pay for something not what you want to pay. When it comes to the Mini, please step aside, there are buyers waiting and you're holding up the line.





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  #224  
Old 11-29-2022, 7:28 PM
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If only the Mini was (fill in the blank for price). Yeah, if only all the other guns were also priced what they were 20 years ago too.

Don't hear too many people who already have them complaining about the prices of today. Just ask the guy who paid $600 for his Mini if he cares if the prices are now $1000 and more.

Value is what someone is willing to pay for something not what you want to pay. When it comes to the Mini, please step aside, there are buyers waiting and you're holding up the line.





.
Agree to disagree. You are wrong. I paid $500 something for a matte stainless and it simply could not keep up with AR's of the day. The AR's outshot them with irons easily. I paid $800 something for an 20" A2 AR. Prices on AR's came down IMHO. My cousin has a recent $350 AR from Sportsman's Warehouse that is superior to a Mini-14. AR's are a far far superior platform. Some people like history though. I do. I'd like to have a new revamped Mini, but I CARE that they are $900 or $1400 or whatever they go for now because they are overpriced in my opinion. Everyone has an opinion. Yours is in the minority.
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Old 11-29-2022, 7:52 PM
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The price is the price, if anyone feels there’s a better value for their money, then spend your money wherever you’re comfortable. My mini is a fairly recent purchase, I knew an AR could be had for less but I chose a mini so I’d never have a rifle with a fin grip. Not a second of regret, I chose what I wanted. My money, my reasons, my choice.

I still can’t figure out why the existence and popularity of the mini bugs so many AR fans so much.. Your money, your choice.. buy what you want and live your dreams..
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Old 11-29-2022, 7:57 PM
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The version 2 redesign of the Mini14 a decade+ ago was so successful that Ruger released a version 3 with even better accuracy, better ergos, easier end user configurability at a significantly lower price as well!

https://www.ruger.com/products/ar556/overview.html



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Old 11-29-2022, 9:12 PM
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The version 2 redesign of the Mini14 a decade+ ago was so successful that Ruger released a version 3 with even better accuracy, better ergos, easier end user configurability at a significantly lower price as well!

https://www.ruger.com/products/ar556/overview.html



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Yes. My cousin’s $350 rifle from a year or two ago is a Ruger hahah. Really nice rifle.
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  #228  
Old 11-29-2022, 9:17 PM
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I have to ask, how are you visually identifying malfunctions in the dark? There is nothing to view, it's going to be done by feel so just how does it all happen without locking the bolt to the rear and then feeling for empty chamber, in the case of the AR, no round or case in the charging handle guide slot or just about anything else?

I'd be very interested in your malfunction clearing sequences when it's dark and you can't see the malfunction, you just know there is one.

IF you happen to have a light source, just how are you operating that, using your support hand to clear a malfunction and not locking the bolt to the rear?

.
To be frank my experiences with shooting in the dark are minimal; I might have fired maybe 200 rounds of blanks at night; no live rounds at night and the Army hasn’t deemed it a high enough priority to place me in an exercise where I have both NVG’s and a weapon to fire at the same time. Hell, at this rate I find it more likely the Army will be trying to train me how to shoot with a gas mask on before they try and have me shoot with NVG’s considering how most POG CoC’s treat it as a low priority.

The occasions where I’ve had to functions check a weapon at night I’ve either gotten away with using my eyes that have adjusted properly to the dark to at least make out the important components on an M4, or by turning on the red lens light around my neck and pointing it down to inspect the weapon. I have never had to clear a malfunction in the literal handful of occasions I’ve had it be a “two way range” during an exercise.

If such an occasion were to occur, I’d most likely default to the SPORTS drill (minus the T), and if that has failed to resolve the issue then I’d treat it like a Type 3 malfunction. If that course of action fails as well then beyond that would likely take me out of the fight since I’d most likely get in the prone and resort to turning on the red lens around my neck to see what happened to get my rifle to **** the bed that badly.
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Old 11-30-2022, 8:03 AM
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To be frank my experiences with shooting in the dark are minimal; I might have fired maybe 200 rounds of blanks at night; no live rounds at night and the Army hasn’t deemed it a high enough priority to place me in an exercise where I have both NVG’s and a weapon to fire at the same time. Hell, at this rate I find it more likely the Army will be trying to train me how to shoot with a gas mask on before they try and have me shoot with NVG’s considering how most POG CoC’s treat it as a low priority.

The occasions where I’ve had to functions check a weapon at night I’ve either gotten away with using my eyes that have adjusted properly to the dark to at least make out the important components on an M4, or by turning on the red lens light around my neck and pointing it down to inspect the weapon. I have never had to clear a malfunction in the literal handful of occasions I’ve had it be a “two way range” during an exercise.

If such an occasion were to occur, I’d most likely default to the SPORTS drill (minus the T), and if that has failed to resolve the issue then I’d treat it like a Type 3 malfunction. If that course of action fails as well then beyond that would likely take me out of the fight since I’d most likely get in the prone and resort to turning on the red lens around my neck to see what happened to get my rifle to **** the bed that badly.
When I've seen people on ranges trying to clear malfunctions where they are looking at the chamber/ejection port, invariably they turn their body to one side and the muzzle starts it's swing away from downrange and sweeps everyone else. But that is just on a range. While I don't think the firefight crowd is always rooted in reality, a malfunction that can happen to anyone using a firearm for HD, even if they haven't fired a single round (while not perfect, some people do keep their guns unloaded-another story) looking down means looking away and in that time everything can change, everything. You look back up and nothing is as it was just a second ago. In that time, you might have needed to move but didn't because of what you were looking at.

In the military you have fields of fire, suppressive fire, fire to break contact and often the benefit of others also engaging. For most civies it's going to be them only. Once you've gone to a gun look at the direction of the threat or where it might come from. Looking down to determine the type of malfunction you have puts you at a serious disadvantage. OTOH, far better to have an alternative to clearing a malfunction but that too is another story.

But you do you and if it works for you, who is anyone to say different anyway? There are many ways to shoot a gun, never argue with theone who always hits their target.

In all this, my point was that clearing a malfunction on a Mini is a one-handed operation and while it's possible with an AR, it is anywhere as simple or as fast. That does take into account the person who is well practiced and maintains their proficiency - for all others they make hammers.





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  #230  
Old 11-30-2022, 12:06 PM
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Please let this thread die. All this malfunction crap LOL
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  #231  
Old 11-30-2022, 2:57 PM
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Can't believe I read the entire thread

And my opinion of the mini-14 is the same as before I read the thread.
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  #232  
Old 11-30-2022, 3:03 PM
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Randy,

I am already familiar with the 3 basic malfunctions, courtesy of the US Army, albeit I do deviate from those exact procedures due to disagreements with the prioritization of how to best clear a malfunction.


The other significant deviation is I frankly have to disagree with locking the bolt back as the first thing you must do, but rather view locking the bolt back as the lowest priority in a Type 3 malfunction; upon identifying the malfunction, I prioritize removing the magazine and racking the bolt multiple times, and only after that has failed do I resort to locking the bolt back (if able, since I certainly can't lock the bolt back with either of my AK's) and using my support hand to physically clear the obstruction. I have defaulted to this since depending on the rifle I often find locking the bolt back takes more time to fix the problem (on account of becoming a two handed affair on certain rifles) than simply ejecting the magazine and racking the charging handle a couple times to clear the malfunction.
You generally can't remove the magazine unless the bolt is held open. There is bolt pressure holding the errant rounds in place and if one is still half way in the magazine you aren't gonna get it out. This is also true of clearing T3's in pistols. With AK's you can rip the magazine out but it comes out easier if you hold the bolt back while dropping the mag. It will come because it rocks back to front. Same with Minis. But the rounds are still wedged in the chamber mouth and you have to hold the bolt open and then fish around to knock them loose.

On AR's or Pistols You have got to get the Bolt/Slide out of the picture in order to deal with the clearing portion of the exercise.

Tipping the gun to the right is just to insure that the errant rounds fall out of the gun so you can proceed. Doesn't matter if you are left handed, you can still look at the Ejection Port while you are tipping the gun.

One thing I'm not getting from you is the fact that all of the Malfunction Clearings are done with the gun on your shoulder not flopping around under your arm or other places.

Last point. All of the Front Sight Instructors I have had were either ex LEO or ex Military Firearms Instructors with extensive experience with all relevant Weapons Systems.

It is not that they are inflexible in their training methods, it is just that they have seen just about every variation of unsuccessful executions of these functions. They only teach the successful ones, all of which run pretty much like I described above.

I am not only talking about Front Sight. Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Sig Academy an most all others teach it the same way, and that way came from the US Military. They have been running that same gun for the last 50+ years and kind of have it down to the simplest method there is to complete the clearance. They have had to teach Morons right next to Genius' and so the simplest way is always the best way. And when you are dealing with Morons Simple is good. Same with Genius' that don't know they are Morons?

Adding Extra Steps or coming up with different Methods is Counter Productive. It usually means you didn't understand what you were supposed to do in the first place. Start over,,, read the instructions, and get someone to show you what you should be doing.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-30-2022 at 3:26 PM..
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Old 11-30-2022, 3:15 PM
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Type 1: Failure to Fire: This is caused by either an Empty Chamber or a Dead Round. You will get a click when you pull the trigger,(also known as the loudest sound in a gun fight!) To clear it you tap the bottom of the magazine to insure it is seated completely and the next round will be stripped off as the bolt closes. Then Rack the Bolt, while tipping the gun to the right to insure that the offending round is ejected or thrown clear. In the case of an AK, Mini 14 or M14 or any platform that rocks the magazine into position, you will grab the magazine and forcefully rock it back so that it is fully seated in the gun. If you would have checked and insured that your magazine was fully seated by pulling down on it when you inserted it, the only way a Type 1 could occur is with a dead round.
If I hear a "puff" after pulling the trigger, I would be very worried about a squib. I would take out the magazine and rack the bolt and examine what gets extracted. If the cartridge has a bullet, it's failure to fire. If it doesn't have a bullet, most likely a squib. Automatically doing a tap and rack could be disastrous.
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  #234  
Old 11-30-2022, 3:22 PM
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NO! damn it!!!

We are going to beat this dead horse into the ground until it comes to the surface in Beijing ! you can sit back ad watch if you don't want to participate.

Randy
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  #235  
Old 11-30-2022, 3:43 PM
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NO! damn it!!!

We are going to beat this dead horse into the ground until it comes to the surface in Beijing ! you can sit back ad watch if you don't want to participate.

Randy
LMAO
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  #236  
Old 11-30-2022, 3:45 PM
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Well might as well give this a try then here. Anyone know where I can find a mini 14 tactical 16" with black stock who will remove the flash hider and ship to California.
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Old 11-30-2022, 4:26 PM
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Well might as well give this a try then here. Anyone know where I can find a mini 14 tactical 16" with black stock who will remove the flash hider and ship to California.
I would give 2AZone a call and see what they can do. They're known for doing these kinds of things...
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  #238  
Old 11-30-2022, 4:58 PM
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Well might as well give this a try then here. Anyone know where I can find a mini 14 tactical 16" with black stock who will remove the flash hider and ship to California.
When it comes back in stock...

https://www.riflegear.com/p-2644-rug...-223-20rd.aspx

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  #239  
Old 11-30-2022, 4:58 PM
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Please let this thread die. All this malfunction crap LOL
Die? NO!! Rest, maybe, at least until part 2 is released.

Then off the rails we go again!
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  #240  
Old 11-30-2022, 5:37 PM
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Well might as well give this a try then here. Anyone know where I can find a mini 14 tactical 16" with black stock who will remove the flash hider and ship to California.
Try EBR Works in AZ https://www.ebrwebstore.com/middleman-ffl-services/

They are a class act and have helped me get all manner of items into CA.
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