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| Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
| View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to: | |||
| Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees |
   
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6 | 3.92% |
| Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. |
  
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70 | 45.75% |
| Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight |
  
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65 | 42.48% |
| Other: explain what you are doing in a post |
  
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12 | 7.84% |
| Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#1241
08-18-2022, 4:47 AM
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#1242
08-18-2022, 5:10 AM
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__________________
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#1244
08-21-2022, 9:26 PM
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So, $500 yearly membership for head of household, $100 yearly for spouse or other family members, plus $100 per day for ordinary classes, and variable amounts of daily fees depending on your membership level currently for private training…
__________________
 The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
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#1246
08-21-2022, 10:17 PM
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Piazza is at it again. Wants to jack up the prices again for private class fees, charge a yearly membership fee and now there's something called Platinum, which seems to have the same benefits and fees a Knight membership had, and wants to raise the fees for privates for the Knights from $100 to $400 day!
Seems like he's getting real desperate now. I'm sure it's not a real vote and is just doing this to make it look like we have a say, and then when he raises the fees he will say that the majority of members voted for it to keep Front Sight alive. I've already started training elsewhere and this will probably be the tipping point for me. As I have mentioned over and over, their 4DDHG is probably one of the absolute best classes out there for a new shooter, someone who has never even touched a firearm before, or for the not so new shooter who has either need learned the fundamentals or wants/needs a refresher of the fundamentals. The Tactical Shotgun class is also fantastic. But given the ever increasing threats from Piazza, his erratic and insane, unhinged rants and business practices we've learned about and how he and Brad Ackman treat the employees, I've simply come to the conclusion that I'd rather not deal with that guy or that place moving forward unless there's some real and significant restructuring that involves his removal. I'd be completely fine with forfeiting my membership if it meant him selling the business. The way I see it, if he retained ownership and kept the business and increased the fees I'd probably never go there again anyway, so if voting "No" meant he was out of the picture then my vote is definitely "No". Here's an excerpt from his most recent email that was forwarded to me by a friend (apparently I was removed from their email list a while ago): I only have a few days to make the decision so I need your truthful response IMMEDIATELY. The future of your membership with Front Sight as you have known it is at stake. This is not an exaggeration. Here is what I am asking: IF, through the bankruptcy, YOU RETAIN THE FOLLOWING MEMBERSHIP BENEFITS: Your membership and ability to attend Front Sight firearms training courses, (but Front Sight Alaska courses, Empty Hand/ Edged Weapons courses, Child/Youth Safety courses, Ropes courses are removed) All your TBD Memberships, but they are all converted to Patriot Memberships All your TBD Certificates, but they are converted to 2Day/4Day Defensive Handgun, Tactical Shotgun, Practical Rifle certificates good for a student's first course only All your Front Sight Credits, Patronage Points, Front Sight Bucks, and Front Sight Coins, but must use them for 50% toward any personal purchases in the pro shop, ammo bunker, armory, for food and beverage, background checks and memberships transfer fees (should you choose to pay a new member's transfer fee) Your ability to will your membership, and your account assets, to a deserving heir on your passing Receive credit for gun or gear bonuses from your purchases If you are a Champion Club Member, you will be paid back over time IF the company provides what is listed above, WILL YOU agree to move forward with Front Sight, as an active member of Front Sight by agreeing to pay the following: Annual Membership Maintenance Fee of $500 for the Head of Household who wants to remain an active member of Front Sight $100 Annual Membership Maintenance Fee for Spouse of Head of Household who wants to remain an active member $100 Annual Membership Maintenance Fee for each Child of Head of Household under the age of 25, who want to remain active members $100 per person, Daily Fee per course day attended $100 per day per person Private Training Fee for Platinum Members and Platinum Guests (includes Daily Fee) $400 per day, per person Private Training Fee for Knight Members and Knight Guests (includes Daily Fee) $600 per day, per person Private Training Fee for Founder Members and Founder Guests (includes Daily Fee) $800 per day, per person Private Training Fee for Legacy Members and Legacy Guests (includes Daily Fee) $1,000 per day, per person Private Training Fee for Patriot Members and Patriot Guests (includes Daily Fee) Front Sight needs a YES or NO answer IMMEDIATELY in order to make very difficult and extremely important decisions regarding the future of Front Sight. Meaning, "YES Dr. Piazza, I understand that there will be new fees but I am willing to pay them to keep the above-mentioned member benefits; to keep Front Sight's employees employed; to keep Front Sight in business; and to continue to participate in Front Sight's purpose to restore the Second Amendment by positively changing the image of gun ownership, through training responsible citizens to levels that far exceed law enforcement and military standards." Or "NO Dr. Piazza, I am not willing to support the changes you have listed above. I understand that without my support and the support of a significant number of the members to the changes proposed above, it is likely that Front Sight will have no option but to accept a purchase or equity participation offer that provides for very little, if any, benefit to members and will likely result in the termination of all memberships and member benefits." I am sorry it has come to this. As you know, I have fought for over four years to protect your membership, your family members' memberships and Front Sight as a whole. As I stated above, our Chapter 11 Reorganization process is expensive, complicated, extremely fluid, and dangerously uncertain. However, it has now come down to a "YES" or "NO" from YOU and your fellow members that will dictate the future of Front Sight. Without your support and the support of a significant number of the members to the changes required, it is likely that Front Sight will have no option but to accept an offer that provides for very little, if any, benefit to members and will likely result in the termination of all memberships and member benefits. As you must now understand, this is a simple request, but EXTREMELY important and I need to know your truthful answer IMMEDIATELY in order to make the proper decision. Please complete the Simple, Secure "Yes" or "No" Form below. Please do it TODAY.
__________________
Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 08-21-2022 at 10:22 PM..
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#1247
08-21-2022, 11:04 PM
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If $500/year plus $100/day ends up being actual fee structure, I’m out. I think that would be the end of FS. I can imagine only a very small group of members that those fees would make sense. All that said, we’ll see what the actual new fees look like after Iggy plays his marketing games.
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#1248
08-21-2022, 11:10 PM
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Way cheaper when you factor in the fact that I didn't have to buy a plane ticket or drive 8+ hours each way, book a hotel, rent a car if I flew out there, etc. The cost and the fact that Piazza and Ackman treat their very hard-working employees like garbage means I'm pretty much done.
__________________
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#1249
08-22-2022, 6:45 AM
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If this is going to be the final fee structure*, FS will no longer hold the attraction it once did for me. Of course it gets cheaper the more classes you take a year, but the tipping point (when the costs of attending FS falls below that of pay-per-class schools) seems to be at two classes a year. Not too hard to attain, but add to that the unknown quality of the instructors, after the massive resignations with the latest Restructuring, and the need to pre-qualify for higher level classes every 2 years, the other schools now seem much more attractive.
What remains to be seen is which instructors stay and what their morale will be, but after seeing those behind the scene revelations, it’s hard to stay optimistic. * PS: hoping this will not be the final fee structure, keeping in mind how in IP in the past had proposed one fee structure in the past and backed down seeing the reaction from students.
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The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives. Last edited by beanz2; 08-22-2022 at 6:48 AM..
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#1250
08-22-2022, 7:42 AM
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I would probably still go at the $100 a day scheme, but I’m not paying $500 a year maintenance AND a daily rate.
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#1252
08-22-2022, 9:20 AM
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Have to agree with Vinnie - better training elsewhere. I enjoyed the yearly trips out there and sometimes more than once. I did learn a lot in the early days and made me better. Now, I find the more advanced classes are a lot more fun to attend in Florida - Sig Sauer being one of them.
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#1253
08-22-2022, 9:37 AM
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__________________
"Awareness is the currency which purchases time.” -Ed Calderon Paratus NRA Handgun Instructor DOJ Handgun Instructor
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#1254
08-22-2022, 9:44 AM
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They have classes in both Northern and Southern CA and travel around the country/world. They don't have that much left on their schedule for the rest of this year for civilians though but also said they can organize private classes for groups. I took Tactical Pistol I & II recently and really enjoyed it. A few things done differently than FS, others done the same. Class pace was much faster than a regular FS 4DDHG class, and maybe more like their skill builder, but also incorporated/taught things like casualty arm fire, casualty arm reloads, movement drills, stationary turns, kneeling fire, use of and shooting from cover and concealment, etc. Of course they also emphasized grip, stance, sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control throughout the entire course and constantly remind you to focus on these fundamentals. I would say if you have a basic understanding of your handgun's manual of arms and have some very basic understanding of fundamentals and understanding of firearms safety you'd enjoy the class. If you're brand new to firearms, really haven't handled a firearm much and/or get nervous around firearms and/or don't understand basic firearms safety (like safely holstering and unholstering your firearm) the 4DDHG class at Front Sight would be a better recommendation, and this is where I really think the 4DDHG class really shines. This was a tactical handgun class, not a defensive handgun class. They still allowed students to shoot from an IWB holster and/or shoot with a concealment garment if they wanted to, or no garment/concealment (keeping in mind it's a tactical class, not really a CCW/defensive class). They were very strict on safety (as they should be) and an ND bought you a one way ticket to go home early. They also require all students to wear body armor, but waived that requirement for the particular class I took because it was 110F+ on the range. Only the instructors and one student were wearing body armor. I'm tempted to buy a vest or a simple/low profile plate carrier for my next class with them. Weighing the pros and cons of both options (vest vs. plate carrier). I have no need, want or desire to attach anything to it aside from an IFAK and nothing else (interested in taking their Tactical Combat Casualty Care course next year which incorporates rendering care for the injured while also shooting), but could probably also attach an IFAK to my belt instead and save some money just getting a basic soft vest. They told us realistically all we need is Level II armor in a soft vest, but if we wanted to get a plate carrier with plates we could, but would be more expensive and overkill. There are a few companies out there that offer high-end refurbished police trade-ins that are in great shape (never shot obviously) and affordable. I just have to do more research and figure out what would be the best option for me since I'm going to take more classes with these guys. They do also rent soft vests for $10 day.
__________________
Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 08-22-2022 at 6:33 PM..
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#1255
08-22-2022, 11:19 AM
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Thanks Vinnie!
I’m definitely going to be looking into more local classes.
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#1257
08-23-2022, 8:19 AM
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#1258
08-23-2022, 3:18 PM
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I'm thinking there might be some kind of deadline with regards to the BK. I've had quite a few emails yesterday and today of the yes or no variety.
__________________
There are some people that it's just not worth engaging. It's a muzzle BRAKE, not a muzzle break. Or is your muzzle tired?
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#1259
08-23-2022, 4:15 PM
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I have a buddy who has received this email 7 times so far. I haven’t received one email from Piazza in months.
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#1261
08-23-2022, 4:49 PM
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Heard him for the first time on the bankruptcy telephone call. He said that he comes to Front Sight only a handful of days a year. Never seen him there and now I know why! Absentee owner. He had many "I don't know" moments on the multi hours call. And he's the sole owner. Brad A. is the Op manager and he's only there a percentage of the time. What did he ask you on your call or did you have to sign an NDA? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#1264
08-24-2022, 10:57 AM
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#1265
08-24-2022, 11:02 AM
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I have the Lists, but for what purpose are you inquiring about? If you are looking for your name - PM me and I can help. I will check this site periodically as time allows.
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#1266
08-24-2022, 11:27 AM
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Sent a PM. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#1268
08-24-2022, 8:06 PM
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I wonder if you have to pay the $500/year fee if you sign up for a class right now and later Iggy implements the fee. I'm guessing no courtesy in that situation.
I'm trying to setup a group trip in Oct with a bunch of new shooters. There's no way they (and I) will pay that $500/year fee. The uncertainly of this fee schedule is making it so we don't know if we'll book anything.
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#1269
08-24-2022, 8:28 PM
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I don't think that $500 HOH/$100 non-HOH is implemented yet and I would venture a guess that would, if it ever gets implemented, start on January 1st, just like their background checks. So, one would be very wise to schedule a class before the end of the year.
Yea, I have a bad feeling the "No" voters may get into some sort of persona-non-grata status, so I will withhold my vote. I am sure I am not the only FS student that feels this way. OTOH, if most of the potential no-voters refrain from voting, and only yes-voters vote, IP will likely get a very lopsided result on his survey. Do you guys recall that one of the earliest proposals when he first announced the Restructuring in January 2021, he did want to charge $500 yearly fee?
__________________
The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
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#1270
08-24-2022, 9:12 PM
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I looked back at the emails and the first time Iggy mentions the $100/day being implemented is in his "Big News" email sent on May 24. It's stated there that the fee begins on June 1. So that was a 1 week heads up notice. I think people who booked a class before that May 24 email for a class after June 1 had to pay the $100/day or their class was canceled. I'm concerned the same thing will happen with this new fee if it's implemented.
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#1271
08-24-2022, 9:45 PM
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I'm not sure that the word "survey" in this instance is entirely accurate. It seems more like what would be called a "push poll":
"push poll noun an ostensible opinion poll in which the true objective is to sway voters using loaded or manipulative questions." (- or fear.) In this case towards a predetermined outcome...
__________________
 ARFrog
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#1272
08-24-2022, 11:33 PM
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__________________
^^^The above is just an opinion. NRA Patron Member CRPA 5 yr Member "...which from their verbosity, their endless tautologies, their involutions of case within case, and parenthesis within parenthesis, and their multiplied efforts at certainty by saids and aforesaids, by ors and by ands, to make them more plain, do really render them more perplexed and incomprehensible, not only to common readers, but to lawyers themselves. " - Thomas Jefferson
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#1274
08-25-2022, 8:43 AM
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I think the plan is for him to say, I have x number of members committed at 500/year. On average they take x training days per year at 100/day. That means I have x in committed revenue. It's a way for him to try and exit BK with a plan to continue operations and develop a payback schedule for creditors. Until he can find someone to buy it or invest rather than being forced to sell it now or take an investor he doesn't want. I personally don't think the place makes it past Q2 2023.
There is no way I would pay the 500/yr membership fee on top of the 100/day for classes. My guess if nobody buys them, the county takes it and operates it as a public range with a management company running it and renting bays to other training companies. If they had the necessary equipment they could run competitive events, like USPSA, IDPA, etc. They could do training for LE and others. They are big enough to hold national events there.
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#1275
08-25-2022, 11:40 AM
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So I will not respond to the survey.
__________________
The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
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#1276
08-25-2022, 12:03 PM
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__________________
NRA Pistol, Rifle, CCW and Metallic Reloading instructor
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#1277
08-25-2022, 11:09 PM
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So all of those "memberships" I got with the continuing elevation of my membership status are all gone? What happened to the "as many courses as you wish to take for life" for free baloney? What happened to all the money I gave IG all the past years to get those memberships I could not even give away? Guess I've been conned...again!!!
Or will he honor those commitments anyway?? I have yet to set foot on FS dirt but was looking forward to it and now it seems the trips will not be possible. $1000 a course if I have to travel from NorCal to Las Vegas/Pahrump including the ammo, motel, fuel and food and then I would have to return to take course for another weapon. And now he wants me to pay an additional $500 per year and $100 a course?? Last edited by Hapapuu; 08-25-2022 at 11:14 PM..
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#1278
08-26-2022, 8:19 AM
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Regarding the ongoing saga of FS, It seems like we all need to take a deep breath and relax. To that end, here is a golden oldie, perhaps from Iggy's play list, for your enjoyment:
"Do The Hustle" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SFzMs2SN--s Don't hang up. This is IGGY with an important announcement to make to all loyal members of FS: "Do it!"
__________________
ARFrog Last edited by ARFrog; 08-27-2022 at 8:15 AM..
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#1279
08-26-2022, 3:40 PM
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__________________
True wealth is time. Time to enjoy life. Life's journey is not to arrive safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy schit...what a ride"!! Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. Mark Twain A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog. Charles Doran
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#1280
08-26-2022, 8:54 PM
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I didn't bother responding to the latest email.
while I don't believe he'd ban or black list someone JUST for voting no, I also don't think the $500 a year plus daily fees is the way to go. guess we'll all just have to wait and see what happens...
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