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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 01-27-2019, 9:52 AM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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Default The Molotov Cocktail, WMD or not ?.

I think not.

Range, 30 yards max and the bottle has to break.

Roughly 12 oz of fuel, not a lot of power.

Delivery system, person, holding flaming bottle of gas. Its will be necessary to have lots of throwers. Life expectancy of thrower, not very long. There will be ample opportunity to move up in a gang of marauders as a thrower.

Go outside and fill several bottles of water up and throw them at your house and on the roof. See how many break. Now try it with your kid shooting a paint ball gun at you. See how many break before you get hit several time by a child laughing his *** off. If you don't have children, mine would love to help.

Molotov cocktails are a very effective weapon in urban areas with tall buildings being thrown onto armor and vehicles when they break.

It won't be hard to spot a thrower, he will be the guy holding a flaming bottle of gasoline dead from being shot by everyone.


I think it might be fun to shoot the guy running towards my home with a flaming bottle just to watch him burn. Just knock him down and let gravity do its thing.

Molotov Cocktails are way down the list of things I worry about.

A thrower will have a very short career.
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  #2  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:23 AM
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I would bet this happens about half the time:

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Old 01-27-2019, 11:20 AM
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The glass bottle Molotov is just a delivery system to get fire from point A on to B when thrown by hand. Molotov's the mother of all simple fire starters. Fire is the weapon. Fire burns > burning fuel makes smoke > smoke makes concealment...

I can imagine more effective methods to deliver fire onto flammable targets from behind cover.

Examples;
Exposed propane/gasoline/diesel tanks would be an inviting target to the orcs & goblins. Shoot the tank with enough rifle > tank leaks > launch flaming arrows into the leak > BOOM! Hell, the tank may just BOOM because it was hit with enough rifle.

Gaza strip goblins use kites as delivery systems to get fire into Israel.

How tough would it be to lob something heavy from a modified spring loaded clay thrower from behind a big log? Not long range, but could be used from cover.

Tactically speaking, if you have to fight the orcs n goblins and a fire at the same time, they have already cut your defending force down by a real number. Depending on how big a fire is.
Loosing valuable and much needed resources would be a huge kick in the nuts.
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Old 01-27-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarosa View Post
I would bet this happens about half the time:

Now try that with someone shooting at you !!!.
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  #5  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
The glass bottle Molotov is just a delivery system to get fire from point A on to B when thrown by hand. Molotov's the mother of all simple fire starters. Fire is the weapon. Fire burns > burning fuel makes smoke > smoke makes concealment...

I can imagine more effective methods to deliver fire onto flammable targets from behind cover.

Examples;
Exposed propane/gasoline/diesel tanks would be an inviting target to the orcs & goblins. Shoot the tank with enough rifle > tank leaks > launch flaming arrows into the leak > BOOM! Hell, the tank may just BOOM because it was hit with enough rifle.

Gaza strip goblins use kites as delivery systems to get fire into Israel.

How tough would it be to lob something heavy from a modified spring loaded clay thrower from behind a big log? Not long range, but could be used from cover.

Tactically speaking, if you have to fight the orcs n goblins and a fire at the same time, they have already cut your defending force down by a real number. Depending on how big a fire is.
Loosing valuable and much needed resources would be a huge kick in the nuts.
Are you carrying this big log and modified clay thrower with you ?. How many bottles and gas will you have to carry ?.

When you are trying to get your kite in the air is there a cease fire ?.

Home many people have a propane tank and or a diesel tank close to the house. They blow in the movies, not in real life, they just burn and vent.

How big a log will you need and how close will it have to be ?.


Tell us how that kite stuff is holding up against the Israeli snipers. How much damage has it done.

Bring lots of logs and modified clay throwers with you.
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Home many people have a propane tank and or a diesel tank close to the house. They blow in the movies, not in real life, they just burn and vent.
No, they don't always just burn and vent. They explode in real life. There is a term for it. BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion). A 20 pound bbq tank can level a house. The same as boiling gasoline in a vehicle tank.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:05 PM
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No, they don't always just burn and vent. They explode in real life. There is a term for it. BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion). A 20 pound bbq tank can level a house. The same as boiling gasoline in a vehicle tank.
I lived thru a huge wild fire. Saw hundreds of burned propane tanks. Not one exploded. They were exposed to a lot more than 12 to 24 ounces of gasoline burning. Are you going to throw this 20 lb tank of propane on my porch and set fire to it ?. Is there a cease fire while you are doing this ?.

At my ranch it will be my rules. We will put steel on target. How many propane tank throwers do you have ?. We will be careful not to park a vehicle close to the house with gas in it also. Really ?.
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  #8  
Old 01-27-2019, 12:06 PM
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I have reason to believe that gasoline soaked tennis balls have a much better range than wine bottles.
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  #9  
Old 01-27-2019, 12:14 PM
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I have reason to believe that gasoline soaked tennis balls have a much better range than wine bottles.
With a rag and or a fuse stuffed in it and then lit. You still are going to need a bunch of throwers. Maybe a couple of those levers you stuff a ball in for your dog. That will work for sure, The huge amount of energy stored in a gasoline filled tennis ball has to be formidable . Really ?.
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Old 01-27-2019, 2:07 PM
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Default Terrain Always Dictates

...as they used to say at Fort Benning (I expect they still do).

In September in Southern California chaparral after a summer of broken water service, a lit Zippo is a WMD... but you could just use a tracer or API round if you have one laying around.

That said, if one looks at how incendiaries are used by the military... well, the US Infantry doesn't use flamethrowers anymore, and if your objective is to set something on fire in a tactical context, then artillery, rockets, or airstrike is the preferred method.

We were taught to use the Molotov against armor... this is really only feasible if there is good concealment and is aided by the poor visibility of the crew when buttoned up; i.e. it requires suitable cover fire.
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2019, 2:31 PM
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I’m sure they would be effective inner city dropping them straight down off roof tops.
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  #12  
Old 01-27-2019, 2:48 PM
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As a kid we used the bottom half of a sports bottle with two strips of surgical tubing to make a water balloon launcher. It did take 3 people to use, but I’m sure a rig could be made for one person.

Anyway, we could easily launch 100 yards.

Fill a balloon with gas and oil/styrofoam mix, there’s kids’ toys for that. Launch it with a tail tied on that’s on fire.
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2019, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragginpanda View Post
As a kid we used the bottom half of a sports bottle with two strips of surgical tubing to make a water balloon launcher. It did take 3 people to use, but I’m sure a rig could be made for one person.

Anyway, we could easily launch 100 yards.

Fill a balloon with gas and oil/styrofoam mix, there’s kids’ toys for that. Launch it with a tail tied on that’s on fire.
Yeah, what could go wrong there. Tell me how you get gas and Styrofoam, and oil in a balloon without it melting. Then light it on fire and shoot it at me. Your crew will be more risk than my family. Then there is that issue of people shooting back at you also.

You are going to need a bunch of balloon launchers with fire suits. Lots of them, and several fire extinguishers.

You might have better luck shooting the bottles. Aim for the Chimney, there is a hole in the top of it. The roof is metal.
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Old 01-27-2019, 3:26 PM
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So apparently;
*Molotovs don't present a threat to anyone but the thrower/igniter and are NOT a wmd. *see Paris riots du jour.
*Propane tanks never explode when super heated. (they only vent higher pressures out of the safety valve and the gas never ignites when that happens, causing other fires) (Our FD had this training all wrong)
*Thick logs are few and far between and you need to bring you own to combat. (even in the forest, so you can't just use what you find there)
*Improvised weapons are useless. Even tho military training manuals show how to build/employ them. (conseding the non-existence of a spring loaded clay thrower that is impossible to modify to throw something other than a clay, but if you build it be sure to build lots of them)
*Fire kites don't cause much damage. Israel sees these as a minimal threat requiring IDF to take steps to stop them via snipers. (Israel's fire fighting capability is very good btw)
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2019, 3:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
So apparently;
*Molotovs don't present a threat to anyone but the thrower/igniter and are NOT a wmd. *see Paris riots du jour.
*Propane tanks never explode when super heated. (they only vent higher pressures out of the safety valve and the gas never ignites when that happens, causing other fires) (Our FD had this training all wrong)
*Thick logs are few and far between and you need to bring you own to combat. (even in the forest, so you can't just use what you find there)
*Improvised weapons are useless. Even tho military training manuals show how to build/employ them. (conseding the non-existence of a spring loaded clay thrower that is impossible to modify to throw something other than a clay, but if you build it be sure to build lots of them)
*Fire kites don't cause much damage. Israel sees these as a minimal threat requiring IDF to take steps to stop them via snipers. (Israel's fire fighting capability is very good btw)
Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 01-28-2019, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
I lived thru a huge wild fire. Saw hundreds of burned propane tanks. Not one exploded. They were exposed to a lot more than 12 to 24 ounces of gasoline burning. Are you going to throw this 20 lb tank of propane on my porch and set fire to it ?. Is there a cease fire while you are doing this ?.

At my ranch it will be my rules. We will put steel on target. How many propane tank throwers do you have ?. We will be careful not to park a vehicle close to the house with gas in it also. Really ?.
Yeah, I was talking about reality not some mad max nocturnal emission.
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Old 01-28-2019, 4:28 PM
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Many folks make the fatal mistake of believing that stuffing a rag in a bottle of gas is an operational molotov cocktail.

It is not. It is a suicide device as the lit rag sets off the gas while in your hand.

There is a proper way to do it. Learn how and save yourself.
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Old 01-28-2019, 7:29 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhti2xAB-Gk




Seems like they shot it enough.
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Old 01-28-2019, 7:44 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0jtD_OWLU


Well it seems like after they heated a propane tank with a 1 inch pipe open propane torch and heated it till it melted the tank it did explode.

I'm thinking a Molotov cocktail has considerable less heat than that. I saw hundreds of tanks burned in the Rim fire, we lost hundreds of homes and never saw a exploded tank. That fire had a little more heat than a gallon of gas.
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Old 01-28-2019, 8:46 PM
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A good friend of mine lived in Paradise. His home and garage burned to the ground, melted a car & a motorcycle, there were 8 propane tanks in the garage - and they all were still in tact. You could probably get the fumes in an empty tank to explode with enough effort, but if a wildfire didn't explode a full tank there's not much that will.
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Old 01-29-2019, 6:50 AM
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Propane tanks have a pressure relief valve. That’s why they don’t explode. The only tank I saw explode the valve had failed.
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:52 AM
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So far we have : Flaming arrows
Modified clay's thrower
Kites
Flaming Tennis Balls
Balloon slingshot tosser

Propane tanks can and will blow up by hitting them with enough rifle fire and Molotov Cocktails.

These absurd examples are in fact a perfect example of why a Molotov Cocktail makes such a poor weapon for just about everything except a urban setting with tall buildings.

If this is your plan of attack you need to rethink it.
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Old 01-29-2019, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
So far we have : Flaming arrows
Modified clay's thrower
Kites
Flaming Tennis Balls
Balloon slingshot tosser

Propane tanks can and will blow up by hitting them with enough rifle fire and Molotov Cocktails.

These absurd examples are in fact a perfect example of why a Molotov Cocktail makes such a poor weapon for just about everything except a urban setting with tall buildings.

If this is your plan of attack you need to rethink it.
They were mass produced and effectively used in ww2. Millions were made by many countries. When done correctly they are very cheap and effective. Especially if you have nothing else.
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Old 01-29-2019, 5:30 PM
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Agreed, They were use in cities against armor and vehicles. Not used very much since then.

Although, napalm works really well and the delivery system is highly effective.
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Old 01-29-2019, 5:52 PM
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Not...
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Old 01-29-2019, 9:55 PM
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I suppose any fire starter can be an effective WMD in dry windy California conditions.

Wipe out thousands of homes with a bic lighter, if the conditions are right.

Want to take out a home? Just light a fire a few miles up wind and let nature do the trick.
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Old 01-30-2019, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brush Guard View Post
I suppose any fire starter can be an effective WMD in dry windy California conditions.

Wipe out thousands of homes with a bic lighter, if the conditions are right.

Want to take out a home? Just light a fire a few miles up wind and let nature do the trick.
Once, maybe, and you have gained nothing.

So lets say you roll up with your crew and plan on pillaging and stealing everything in the house that the house you are attacking have. The owner of the place opens the door and tells you pound sand. Gunfire erupts and people are shot, someone opens the door to curse at you and let fly with your Molotov cocktail. It hits the house and burns the place to the ground.

You have gained nothing, you just burned it to the ground. Start a forest fire and you burn everything and yourself.
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Old 01-30-2019, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
I think not.

Range, 30 yards max and the bottle has to break.

Roughly 12 oz of fuel, not a lot of power.

Delivery system, person, holding flaming bottle of gas. Its will be necessary to have lots of throwers. Life expectancy of thrower, not very long. There will be ample opportunity to move up in a gang of marauders as a thrower.

Go outside and fill several bottles of water up and throw them at your house and on the roof. See how many break. Now try it with your kid shooting a paint ball gun at you. See how many break before you get hit several time by a child laughing his *** off. If you don't have children, mine would love to help.

Molotov cocktails are a very effective weapon in urban areas with tall buildings being thrown onto armor and vehicles when they break.

It won't be hard to spot a thrower, he will be the guy holding a flaming bottle of gasoline dead from being shot by everyone.


I think it might be fun to shoot the guy running towards my home with a flaming bottle just to watch him burn. Just knock him down and let gravity do its thing.

Molotov Cocktails are way down the list of things I worry about.

A thrower will have a very short career.
It sounds like you're assuming that it's just one guy attacking which would indeed be an easy target. However, IMHO, the molotov is a mob/riot weapon meaning more than one guy. If that mob has a number of guys shooting at you, or even just throwing rocks and bottles, then the molotov guy might get close while you're dealing with other issues. If he does then he can most certainly put you in a world of hurt.
Just my 2 cents.
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  #29  
Old 01-31-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
I think not.

Range, 30 yards max and the bottle has to break.

Roughly 12 oz of fuel, not a lot of power.

Delivery system, person, holding flaming bottle of gas. Its will be necessary to have lots of throwers. Life expectancy of thrower, not very long. There will be ample opportunity to move up in a gang of marauders as a thrower.

Go outside and fill several bottles of water up and throw them at your house and on the roof. See how many break. Now try it with your kid shooting a paint ball gun at you. See how many break before you get hit several time by a child laughing his *** off. If you don't have children, mine would love to help.

Molotov cocktails are a very effective weapon in urban areas with tall buildings being thrown onto armor and vehicles when they break.

It won't be hard to spot a thrower, he will be the guy holding a flaming bottle of gasoline dead from being shot by everyone.


I think it might be fun to shoot the guy running towards my home with a flaming bottle just to watch him burn. Just knock him down and let gravity do its thing.

Molotov Cocktails are way down the list of things I worry about.

A thrower will have a very short career.
One can launch closer to 100 yrds , from behind cover , if you know how . How did grenade launcher on M1s work ?

Just get yourself a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook , Poormans James Bond , and a few military how to books .

You would be surprised at the effectiveness of home made weapons ( look at how many people built AR 15s )

Another subject your not to familiar with , but you are allowed your opinion .
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Old 01-31-2019, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
One can launch closer to 100 yrds , from behind cover , if you know how . How did grenade launcher on M1s work ?
Not an expert but the grenade launchers on M1 garand (M7) used special "rifle grenades" and the gas from a special "grenade carterage". Are you proposing launching Molotov cocktails with a similar device?

Quote:
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You would be surprised at the effectiveness of home made weapons ( look at how many people built AR 15s )
most home built ARs were made at a build party paying a machinist to run their receiver in his CNC. Even those who actually machined out their own fire control pocket are a long way from having a "home made weapon". On the other hand, those shotguns made from black iron pipe are homemade weapons but not nearly as effective as commercially produced versions.
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Old 01-31-2019, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
One can launch closer to 100 yrds , from behind cover , if you know how . How did grenade launcher on M1s work ?

Just get yourself a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook , Poormans James Bond , and a few military how to books .

You would be surprised at the effectiveness of home made weapons ( look at how many people built AR 15s )

Another subject your not to familiar with , but you are allowed your opinion .
Actually I can build anything. I own a 3 axis CNC and a fully equipped shop to go with it. Takes 4 minutes to finish a lower even drilling the trigger pins.

Please post up your 100 yard Molotov Cocktail tosser so we all can see it. I have seen the Grenade launcher that fits on a M1. Our local veterans museum has one one display with a dummy grenade. How you fire one of those and not break the bottle is a marvel to me. Like I said earlier, wear a fire suit.
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Old 02-01-2019, 2:13 PM
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Well, that deteriorated into the personal rather quickly.

Some posts deleted.
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  #33  
Old 02-01-2019, 2:21 PM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
One can launch closer to 100 yrds , from behind cover , if you know how . How did grenade launcher on M1s work ?

Just get yourself a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook , Poormans James Bond , and a few military how to books .

You would be surprised at the effectiveness of home made weapons ( look at how many people built AR 15s )

Another subject your not to familiar with , but you are allowed your opinion .
I did, I could not find anything about tossing a Molotov Cocktail 100 yards. Looked in all 3 additions and the cheap 007 book also.
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  #34  
Old 02-01-2019, 2:51 PM
Capt.Dunsel Capt.Dunsel is offline
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Funny play on words . I never said toss , I said LAUNCH.

google " Converting a shot gun to a grenade launcher " In the cookbook it also mentions your weapon , the cocktail as a secondary weapon .

And Dear Librarian ,
This is the second time he did this , give him the info the he calls in help. Nothing against you but I DO NOT LIKE BEING CALLED A LIAR , when I have been giving the proof and they just don't read .
I refuse to post up all the particulars , from a book in print . You should understand the laws of copy right infringement And why I won't .
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  #35  
Old 02-01-2019, 3:10 PM
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I never asked or wanted help from a moderator. He only interceded to keep the peace. Nothing in the book or any other said you could launch a Molotov Cocktail. They are your books you quoted.
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  #36  
Old 02-01-2019, 3:29 PM
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Librarian Librarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
And Dear Librarian ,
This is the second time he did this , give him the info the he calls in help. Nothing against you but I DO NOT LIKE BEING CALLED A LIAR , when I have been giving the proof and they just don't read
He didn't ask. I read and participate in this forum.

I quite understand. Hash it out in PM, not in an open thread.
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  #37  
Old 02-05-2019, 6:28 AM
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LAKA90034 LAKA90034 is offline
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Man...this thread smells a lot like OT.
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  #38  
Old 02-05-2019, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LAKA90034 View Post
Man...this thread smells a lot like OT.
Yeah. Who knew that molotovs were so controversial?

The real danger in rural areas, post TEOTWAWKI, will be small groups of marauders with deer rifles.

At least until the ammo run out. 10-20 years?

-- Michael
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  #39  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:18 AM
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I think that will the biggest threat no matter where you are at. Attrition and or ammo will become the issue.
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