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  #1  
Old 12-03-2023, 6:00 PM
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Default Garand Thumb reviews the Steyr Scout

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Old 12-04-2023, 5:33 AM
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I saw that on X.

Makes me want to shoot mine, haha!! Though mine is in 6.5CM with a Hi-Lux scope (sorry Col Cooper!!).
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Old 12-04-2023, 5:54 AM
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Default Garand Thumb reviews the Steyr Scout

The comments are talking about how obsolete it was on day 1 and GT pretty much saying the same thing. To me it seemed reasonable in an age where lightweight handy AR carbines, LPVOs and wonder calibers were not really available to the common man. His followers lack perspective but probably due to youth.

They don?t like the forward mounting of the scout scope, but it?s supposedly due to allow for quick target acquisition with both eyes open.

It?s cool to see it run through its paces though. I?d for sure trade my Winchester 70 for one.
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Old 12-04-2023, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by PogoJack View Post

They don?t like the forward mounting of the scout scope, but it?s supposedly due to allow for quick target acquisition with both eyes open.

It?s cool to see it run through its paces though. I?d for sure trade my Winchester 70 for one.
I have been using forward-mounted optics on my scout-ish rifles for some time, and can state with confidence that (for me) they have made all the difference in hunting success. Case in point: while hog hunting, often the boar are moving through and between bushes where they become harder to spot; I have made numerous first-round hits when the animal steps out between those bushes for just seconds, because my field of view was such that I was not fixated on one smaller area. All of these hits have been under two hundred yards, some as close as fifty. I leave the optic parked on 3X, with the Firedot on. Works great.
I use that optic (Leupold 1.5-5X w/Firedot) on two of our GSR?s and one Steyr.

In the video, the host uses the term sniper rifle. I do not recall ever reading about Cooper calling it a sniper rifle, someone please clarify that. I also don?t recall Richard Mann calling it that either (for those who ask who he is, suffice to say that Richard Man likely knows more about the evolution of the scout rifle concept than anyone, and has had more experience with it than Cooper did, due to his time of exposure, knowledge, and experience).

I wouldn?t sell your Model 70 to acquire the Steyr; I would keep both. I suspect though that once you start hunting with the Steyr, you will not use the 70 very much.
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Old 12-04-2023, 6:44 AM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
I have been using forward-mounted optics on my scout-ish rifles for some time, and can state with confidence that (for me) they have made all the difference in hunting success. Case in point: while hog hunting, often the boar are moving through and between bushes where they become harder to spot; I have made numerous first-round hits when the animal steps out between those bushes for just seconds, because my field of view was such that I was not fixated on one smaller area. All of these hits have been under two hundred yards, some as close as fifty. I leave the optic parked on 3X, with the Firedot on. Works great.
I use that optic (Leupold 1.5-5X w/Firedot) on two of our GSR?s and one Steyr.

In the video, the host uses the term sniper rifle. I do not recall ever reading about Cooper calling it a sniper rifle, someone please clarify that. I also don?t recall Richard Mann calling it that either (for those who ask who he is, suffice to say that Richard Man likely knows more about the evolution of the scout rifle concept than anyone, and has had more experience with it than Cooper did, due to his time of exposure, knowledge, and experience).

I wouldn?t sell your Model 70 to acquire the Steyr; I would keep both. I suspect though that once you start hunting with the Steyr, you will not use the 70 very much.

That?s a great little write up and explanation. I have a M1A Scout Squad with a Burris Scout optic. It takes some getting used to but I can tell that it would be useful to hit a moving target without getting tunnelvision. I would indeed like to use it for hogs one day.

I think the sniper moniker is from a video game, CounterStrike where it was listed as a sniper rifle. I too have never heard of it referred to as that.
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Old 12-04-2023, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PogoJack View Post
That?s a great little write up and explanation. I have a M1A Scout Squad with a Burris Scout optic. It takes some getting used to but I can tell that it would be useful to hit a moving target without getting tunnelvision. I would indeed like to use it for hogs one day.
Thank you for the nice words.
I too have a SA SS, and used to have the Leupold 2.5X on it (forward mounted) when I was younger and could heft it up quickly. It was (and remains) very heavy in comparison, so going back to bolt rifles for ranch work made things easier considering my orthopedic conditions at the time. I have since relegated it to the reference collection, along with all the other stuff along the evolutionary chain we keep examples of. Still fun to bring out for the kids, it has been reliable.

That Burris you have may be the same that I have on a few other rifles (RuMar Trapper being the latest), and seems to hold up very well so far, and for the price has good, clear glass. For a forward-mounted optic it seems to be a very solid option, being that my favorite Leupold is out of production.
If you can pack your SA SS around, it will work very well with the correct hunting ammo for hogs. I scored a few deer with mine years ago. Five-rounds mags are available to help with that. Your rifle is plenty accurate for the task.
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Old 12-04-2023, 7:42 AM
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I can't see squat with both eyes open, it would never work for me. Maybe because of the difference in the vision, even though I wear glasses? (20/600 and 20/800)
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Old 12-04-2023, 8:21 AM
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Once I started using forward-mounted optics, they became my first choice for most all hunting and social occasion weapons. I still use conventionally mounted optics on long range rifles and some rim fire .22s, but I?m so much faster with scout-style setups.
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Old 12-04-2023, 9:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post

I can't see squat with both eyes open, it would never work for me.

Respectfully, that is more than likely because you haven't really tried, and that through a forward-mounted, low-power scope on your rifle.

I have, and it does. I wear eyeglasses too in the neighborhood of 20/400 (with some slight improvement recently).

My setup is a Ruger Gunsite Scout wearing a forward-mounted Leupold FXII 2.5 power scout scope. While I haven't hunted with it as our esteemed colleauge splithoof has, I can say that when glassing my local environs with an unloaded rifle or when shooting during target practice, the low-power, forward-mounted scope with both eyes open is a game-changer. This, when using +/- 300 yards as a limit.
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Old 12-04-2023, 9:23 AM
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Do you shoot a red dot with both eyes open sig? Also how about shotguns? I?m just curious.

I personally have weak left eye dominance (cross dominant), but have practiced enough that when my dominant eye swaps I can consciously swap it back. It?s mostly annoying on right to left crossing shots with a shotgun, but I?ve rarely had it happen when shooting with a dot or forward mounted scope. I still find forward mounted scopes to be pretty handy, even if I think they look goofy as hell. I?d rather have a gun I can shoot well than one that looks good.
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoJack View Post
The comments are talking about how obsolete it was on day 1 and GT pretty much saying the same thing.
These comments generally indicate an ignorance of the rifle and concept Cooper was actually going for.

GT got most everything he said about the rifle wrong, but he appears to be able to shoot it quite well.

Small list of things he gets wrong.

1. It is obsolete. If it is, then every single other bolt rifle is obsolete too. People who try and make this argument tend to without actually supporting their argument. They just toss it out. Or trying to argue the rifle was built for things it was not.

2. It is a sniper rifle. Actually, it is not, nor was it ever meant to be. Sniper rifles are specialty rifles. The scout is a general-purpose rifle. Two very opposite things. Just because Valve thinks it is in a video game doesn't make it so.

3. Scope is forward mounted so you can use stripper clips. This is an internet myth that just won't die. The scope is forward mounted for situational awareness, the snapshot, and if ever a scope is designed optimally for this use, the xhair "floats out there" and the housing disappears, and you can shoot with both eyes open. Per Cooper himself, the forward mounting was about what he thought was the ideal sighting system, not to use stripper clips.

4. Rifle was for buffalo. Nope. Hunting bullalo is outside the scope of a general-purpose rifle.

5. Thin barrel would have accuracy issues...well he is only partly right here. Not all light rifles with thin barrels have this issue. you get what you pay for. the Scout rifle was also not built with the role of providing suppressive fire in mind. The thin barrel is not a weakness on this rifle.

6. It is outclassed. He repeated that many times, but never said what outclassed it. Typically, this argument is made by comparing apples to oranges. Example AR to Scout rifle. He tossed this out a few times, but never clarified.

7. Mentioned that if he needed a rifle while walking his ranch, he would grab his AR. And his point?? The issue here is part ignorance of the concept and part viewing the world through a mirror. Just because the rifle might not be his choice, doesn't mean it is obsolete, outclassed etc. He mentioned needing a follow up shot as part of why he would choose an AR over the Scout. Sounds like a skills issue. Too much time where he had the luxury of a semi auto, vs developing traditional rifleman skills.

But the bigger issue here is AR are not legal globally. But to some degree or another, a bolt rifle is. Cooper was going for a rifle he could take anywhere and do almost anything outside of a few specialty uses of a rifle. Infantry, dangerous and large game hunting, sniping for example.

8. EU doesn't allow 308. Not entirely true. Some countries do not allow it, but some do. Regardless of it is legal to own, 308 is available just about globally one way or another. This is a factor that went into his choice of 308 as the primary chambering.

9. He didn't use a sling. The Scout shines when using a proper shooting sling. He seemed to completely miss this and why there are so many sling mounting points.

what he got right.

Goofy threading for suppressor. It's an EU standard, not US.

Bipod is flimsy. But who cares if you know how to use a shooting sling. Use the bipod to keep your action out of the dirt when on break.

backup iron sights are token at best.


Cooper was a Marine and interested in all things military, military history and being a rifleman. All that factors into his thoughts that became the Scout Rifle, but I am not aware of him EVER suggesting that the Scout should be thought of as an infantry rifle.

He appeared enamored by the last of the true scouts as we think of them going into the 20th century. He was also an avid hunter. What does a hunter need to do? Scout around looking for their game animal.

At the end of the day the Scout rifle is a rifle that has features he felt would facilitate "scouting" round the wilderness exploring, hunting and defending oneself. Which outside of a war, a bolt rifle is perfectly capable of doing. And most importantly, doing so in just about any legal jurisdiction you can have a rifle.

When you understand this, the rifle makes more sense. GT comes across as having researched most of the rifles he talks about, but this time he seriously dropped the ball.
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
I saw that on X.

Makes me want to shoot mine, haha!! Though mine is in 6.5CM with a Hi-Lux scope (sorry Col Cooper!!).
There are reasons he chose 308 as the primary chambering. BUT he also talked about people using 7-08 and 243 where 308 was not legal.

If you forget about 308 for a moment, and look at the criteria he laid out, if the cartridge can meet them, then there is no issue. It isn't really about 308 simply because he had a thing for .30 cal...which he did. The key is what the 308 can do.

6.5 likely can do everything a 308 can do except be available worldwide. But if you are not a global traveler with your rifle...who cares. Enjoy your 6.5 Scout rifle.
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Once I started using forward-mounted optics, they became my first choice for most all hunting and social occasion weapons. I still use conventionally mounted optics on long range rifles and some rim fire .22s, but I?m so much faster with scout-style setups.
Makes sense.

The scout scope was not meant to be a long-range sighting system. One could actually argue that long range (550/600 yard and beyond) things start getting specialized and that takes you out of general-purpose land (scout rifles) and into something else.

The one area of the Scout rifle that never got the attention it needed was the scope. Leupold got close to ideal with their VX-R scout scope. But for whatever reason they stopped making it. Maybe no one noticed what they had and so sales must have been poor. But like Cooper used to say... I got mine and love it.
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:53 AM
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Do you shoot a red dot with both eyes open sig? Also how about shotguns? I?m just curious.
No way. Like I said, I can't see squat with both eyes open if I try to focus on a single point, like a sight picture. I can drive, hit a baseball (kinda), and all that, but I can't focus on a single point unless I close my left eye.
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Old 12-04-2023, 1:00 PM
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Sharps, that was a good rebuttal to that video. I was too lazy to list all the points.

I do however appreciate back-up iron sights, and think they are more than just a token. I can recall that on one of my hunting trips, my rifle got dropped on the scope. While there was no apparent damage by visual inspection, it was enough for me to remove it and use the irons for a successful hit on a boar at 75 yards. That may be rare, but it is what it is. The rifle btw was a R700 .30-06, with a conventional mounted 6X Leupold. I would hate to have continued, only to miss or wound. Never had a scope fog up, but have seen them get harder to use in very rainy conditions.
During the 2016 Scout Rifle Conference at Gunsite, there was discussion of the Steyr Scout regarding the flip-up iron sights they employ, and concern about those actually being plastic. The chief engineer of the current production at that time (who flew from Austria for the week) told us that almost nobody (except us scout rifle enthusiasts) ever removed an optic, and it was a very rare occurrence. He was very correct in that. Thus, those on the Steyr were there more for the Cooper specs that Steyr followed as closely as practical.
As to the thread pitch on the muzzle, that is a European thing, and for my purposes is moot, being here in Kali.
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Old 12-04-2023, 6:51 PM
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Sharps, that was a good rebuttal to that video.

Not only a good rebuttal, but a superb rebuttal.

Chock full of the facts. Thank you for that, Sharps.



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Old 12-05-2023, 10:28 AM
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Thank you.

Only reason I "feel" the need to speak up.... These are very good, completely modern, and very relevant rifles for what they are designed to do. If you have a need that this rifle fits, I would hate for someone to be discouraged from looking at one simply because of ignorance of a YT personality.

Normally, from what I can tell GT is spot on or knowledgeable enough for gov work. But in this case, he really dropped the ball for his viewers.
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Old 12-05-2023, 11:35 AM
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Read about The Scout Rifle Idea from Jeff Cooper himself. (Images taken from The Scout Rifle Idea by Jeff Cooper at The Scout Rifle Forum.)









There's also...

"The Carbine Compromise", Jeff Cooper, Guns and Ammo, Oct. 1966. Which had its own 2015 thread on Calguns... Jeff Cooper, 1966 G&A article: The carbine compromise.

Throwback Thursday: The Scout Rifle
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Old 12-05-2023, 11:36 AM
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The scout rifle concept is not outdated. You'll notice more and more compact bolt actions with box mags are being released every year. Lightweight rifles with short barrels using new short action cartridges are proliferating. The only deviations from his original concept rifle is the lack of worldwide availability of these new cartridges and the traditional scope mounts vs a scout scope. But with the modern optics available to us today, it accomplishes the same thing as a scout scope back in Cooper's day.
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Old 12-05-2023, 2:54 PM
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The scout rifle concept is not outdated. You'll notice more and more compact bolt actions with box mags are being released every year. Lightweight rifles with short barrels using new short action cartridges are proliferating.
You aren't supposed to notice that. Or if you do, speak this heresy.

Opinion time....

That Gun Digest article is probably the hands down best write up Cooper ever did on the scout rifle concept. While he spoke prolifically about it, and wrote often in his commentaries about it, interestingly rarely did he take the time to write full articles/essays about it like in the Gun Digest article.

Another really good resource is the book Scout Rifle study by Richard Mann, he was able to get access to Cooper's personal papers, so things never published.

The carbine compromise is often pointed to in Scout Rifle discussion, I do not entirely agree with how many view it in relation to the Scout Rifle. It's not really about Scout Rifles, but about carbines... aka short rifles, which the Scout is. My opinion, the place of this article is to give insight into where his thinking was going.

The first real flushed out public writing to my knowledge is the Gun Digest article/essay. he may have written a bit here and there and talked about it before that point, but to my knowledge that is the first fully flushed out essay explaining his thinking and goals for the Scout Rifle.

The throwback Thursday article is his summary of the first Scout Rifle conference.

To get the full picture of this thoughts between 1983 (first conference) the Gun Digest article (Published in 84, but likely written even before the conference) is not easy. You need access to all the articles, commentaries, and books. Not an easy task.

Fr Frog used to offer a service where he would print copies of all the magazine articles. not sure if he still does.

Most people read one or two of Cooper's writings and think they understand. At one time, that was me.

Once I got my Scout Rifle, I figured I better actually know what I was talking about so started reading and studying to understand the how/why etc of the feature choices.

In some ways, the whole thing is pretty strait forward, in others as Richard Mann said, it's an enigma.
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Old 12-05-2023, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
I would hate for someone to be discouraged from looking at one simply because of ignorance of a YT personality.
I find that too many of these so-called influencers on YT often blather on regarding things they know little of, or have very little actual experience with said subjects. I nearly turned him off after the first minute, it was that bad.
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Old 12-05-2023, 4:48 PM
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I have thought that 6.5 grendel in an 18-20" bbl would be an interesting choice for scout / "do-all" rifle in either short action bolt rifle or AR type platform.
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Old 12-05-2023, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
You aren't supposed to notice that. Or if you do, speak this heresy.

Opinion time....

That Gun Digest article is probably the hands down best write up Cooper ever did on the scout rifle concept. While he spoke prolifically about it, and wrote often in his commentaries about it, interestingly rarely did he take the time to write full articles/essays about it like in the Gun Digest article.

Another really good resource is the book Scout Rifle study by Richard Mann, he was able to get access to Cooper's personal papers, so things never published.

The carbine compromise is often pointed to in Scout Rifle discussion, I do not entirely agree with how many view it in relation to the Scout Rifle. It's not really about Scout Rifles, but about carbines... aka short rifles, which the Scout is. My opinion, the place of this article is to give insight into where his thinking was going.

The first real flushed out public writing to my knowledge is the Gun Digest article/essay. he may have written a bit here and there and talked about it before that point, but to my knowledge that is the first fully flushed out essay explaining his thinking and goals for the Scout Rifle.

The throwback Thursday article is his summary of the first Scout Rifle conference.

To get the full picture of this thoughts between 1983 (first conference) the Gun Digest article (Published in 84, but likely written even before the conference) is not easy. You need access to all the articles, commentaries, and books. Not an easy task.

Fr Frog used to offer a service where he would print copies of all the magazine articles. not sure if he still does.

Most people read one or two of Cooper's writings and think they understand. At one time, that was me.

Once I got my Scout Rifle, I figured I better actually know what I was talking about so started reading and studying to understand the how/why etc of the feature choices.

In some ways, the whole thing is pretty strait forward, in others as Richard Mann said, it's an enigma.
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Old 12-05-2023, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
..

That Gun Digest article is probably the hands down best write up Cooper ever did on the scout rifle concept. While he spoke prolifically about it, and wrote often in his commentaries about it, interestingly rarely did he take the time to write full articles/essays about it like in the Gun Digest article.

I noticed that. I so thoroughly enjoyed reading it that just a few paragraphs in I went to the safe and pulled my Ruger Gunsite Scout in it's composite stock simply to fondle it. The RGS may not "make weight", but I don't care. It is a delight to carry and shoot. It wears too one of Andy's Rhodesian slings.

This was my first time reading the Gun Digest story (thank you, Trapped!), having gotten my info over the intervening years from Cooper's Commentaries, Gargantuan Gunsight Gossip, the Scout Rifle forum (been awhile since I've been over there), The Art of the Rifle, Mann's book and a few writeups over the years covering the various scout rifle conferences at Gunsite.



Quote:
Another really good resource is the book Scout Rifle study by Richard Mann, he was able to get access to Cooper's personal papers, so things never published.

I have a copy! Read it four years ago and will read it again. Reading the Gun Digest article above has rekindled my always-smoldering appreciation for Cooper. If I were to point to anyone in the firearms training world as the one I respect the most it is Lt. Col. J.D. "Jeff" Cooper. May he rest in peace.




Quote:
In some ways, the whole thing is pretty strait forward, in others as Richard Mann said, it's an enigma.

Yes, and in my case, the topic is almost polarizing.
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Old 12-06-2023, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
I went to the safe and pulled my Ruger Gunsite Scout in it's composite stock simply to fondle it. The RGS may not "make weight", but I don't care. It is a delight to carry and shoot.
The odd thing to me is why Ruger hasn't tried to lower the weight over the years. It wouldn't be that hard to do.

When Ruger first introduced the Gunsite Scout, I noticed it didn't make weight. I figured that it made sense, because they usually continue to tweak it and introduce those tweaks over the years to get people to upgrade. So I figured I'd wait a few years until they came out with their lightweight version - which would then meet Coopers requirements for weight. But Ruger never did. They've mostly kept it in it's original form since the beginning.
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:17 AM
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Has anyone considered outfitting a Q Fix as a modern scout rifle? In my brain a 12" barrelled suppressed SBR version would really fit the bill.

https://liveqordie.com/the-fix/
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
The RGS may not "make weight", but I don't care.
The Steyr doesn't either. But it has 80/85% of the features Cooper wanted. I have heard but cannot confirm that the samples given to Cooper did make weight or got much closer than mass production has.

As much as Cooper appeared to want a light rifle, and that aspect gets A HUGE amount of attention. I think (personal opinion) he may have actually valued "friendliness" over everything else. A difficult concept to define/operationalize into an actual rifle build. But generally, refers to all the features coming together making the rifle easy to use, easy to carry while out in the field, away from the bench, over extended distances and time.

Richard Mann has also indicated he strongly suspects Cooper himself never got to shoot, carry, use a Scout Rifle that made weight. Richard is likely one of the few ever to come close to the ideal weight/feature combo with a NULA that got converted into a Scout Rifle, a one of a kind.

Apparently, Cooper pissed off Mevlin and this resulted in Mevlin (founder of NULA) from every wanting anything to do with Scout Rifles. Which is too bad, the NULA would have been a great foundation.

My opinion on the polarizing aspects of this... most of the reasons why are plain silly, and generally are rooted in misunderstanding of the goal/concept.
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
Has anyone considered outfitting a Q Fix as a modern scout rifle? In my brain a 12" barrelled suppressed SBR version would really fit the bill.

https://liveqordie.com/the-fix/
At 6.2 pounds, this rifle is off to a good start. But weight is but one factor. There are other aspects. Is the rifle designed to be used from improvised field positions? Does the design facilitate the "snapshot"? Does the chambering of choice provide the ballistics to drop a 500 pound target in one shot? How does it carry? etc, etc.

A scout rifle isn't' a "look", it is a concept that has to come together. If the Qfix can meet the goals of the concept 80/85% like the Styer does, not reason it can't be a scout rifle.
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:37 PM
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I love the Scout rifle concept for what I would use such a rifle for. Additionally, it can travel to almost any state. I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up to a Scout rifle in SHTF or some sort of emergency.
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:53 PM
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I have thought that 6.5 grendel in an 18-20" bbl would be an interesting choice for scout / "do-all" rifle in either short action bolt rifle or AR type platform.
With all the interest in 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, and now 22 ARC I'm a little surprised the WSSMs don't get reinvented.

25 WSSM will launch a 120 grain bullet right around 3000 fps from a 22 inch barrel in a sub 7lb (with scope) gun with an action sized for the aforementioned 6.5 Grendel, etc. It's a short, fast, action and pleasant to shoot. Cut it down to 18 or maybe 20 inches and you don't lose that much velocity and losing that extra bit of barrel will bring the weight down even more and you're still a few hundred fps faster than a Grendel in a rifle that's every bit as handy.

But if a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps is the standard by which things are measured, I don't think I'd feel comfortable with Grendel pushing a 120-130 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps.
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Old 12-09-2023, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
With all the interest in 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, and now 22 ARC I'm a little surprised the WSSMs don't get reinvented.

25 WSSM will launch a 120 grain bullet right around 3000 fps from a 22 inch barrel in a sub 7lb (with scope) gun with an action sized for the aforementioned 6.5 Grendel, etc. It's a short, fast, action and pleasant to shoot. Cut it down to 18 or maybe 20 inches and you don't lose that much velocity and losing that extra bit of barrel will bring the weight down even more and you're still a few hundred fps faster than a Grendel in a rifle that's every bit as handy.

But if a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps is the standard by which things are measured, I don't think I'd feel comfortable with Grendel pushing a 120-130 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps.
I think the whole line of WSMs is an example of how good cartridges can be subject to market timing, advertising, competitive offerings from other manufacturers, etc. There have been many otherwise great examples that simply faded for a variety of reasons unrelated to the specifics of actual performance.
One thing to keep in mind regarding the changes that the Scout Rifle criteria evolved through when Cooper was around, is that modern bullet performance was not what it is now. Technological improvements have brought us cartridges that will do more now than previously.
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Old 12-09-2023, 9:43 AM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
With all the interest in 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, and now 22 ARC I'm a little surprised the WSSMs don't get reinvented.

25 WSSM will launch a 120 grain bullet right around 3000 fps from a 22 inch barrel in a sub 7lb (with scope) gun with an action sized for the aforementioned 6.5 Grendel, etc. It's a short, fast, action and pleasant to shoot. Cut it down to 18 or maybe 20 inches and you don't lose that much velocity and losing that extra bit of barrel will bring the weight down even more and you're still a few hundred fps faster than a Grendel in a rifle that's every bit as handy.

But if a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps is the standard by which things are measured, I don't think I'd feel comfortable with Grendel pushing a 120-130 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps.
That's probably out of a bolt gun though, right? AR ammo has to be loaded to lower pressures. The 6 ARC in a bolt gun steps right along with most of its competition.

Unfortunately, WSSM and some similar cartridges are basically dead. Not many want a gun you can't get brass or factory ammo for.
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Old 12-09-2023, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
I think the whole line of WSMs is an example of how good cartridges can be subject to market timing, advertising, competitive offerings from other manufacturers, etc. There have been many otherwise great examples that simply faded for a variety of reasons unrelated to the specifics of actual performance.
One thing to keep in mind regarding the changes that the Scout Rifle criteria evolved through when Cooper was around, is that modern bullet performance was not what it is now. Technological improvements have brought us cartridges that will do more now than previously.
Yup, happened to the SAUMs to some degree too. Probably someone will have to neck the 25 WSSM to .264 or something like that, load it to AR pressures, and give it a catchy name.
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:15 AM
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well... we have been at war since Gulf War 1....

Is anyone using a scout rifle? Any group that than select their gear?

Out to 600 yards- a range where 147 grain NATO ball is accurate, does the scout fit a need? Say over an AR10?
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post

well... we have been at war since Gulf War 1....

Is anyone using a scout rifle? Any group that than select their gear?

Out to 600 yards- a range where 147 grain NATO ball is accurate, does the scout fit a need? Say over an AR10?


Respectfully, my good man, the use criteria in your post are not aligned with the scout rifle concept...

Please refer to 1859sharps' Post #s 11 and 12, and to the story in TrappedinCalifornia's Post #18 in this very thread.


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Old 12-09-2023, 12:09 PM
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Respectfully, my good man, the use criteria in your post are not aligned with the scout rifle concept...
What he said...

However, if it helps, there is picture evidence of the Styer Scout being used in a 1990's war that took place in Europe. But even still, it was NOT meant to be an infantry rifle. http://www.steyrscout.org/kosovo.htm

As for does the Styer Scout (or scout rifle concept in general) fit a need that can't be filled by the AR10? Absolutely. And it is a need that could NEVER, EVER be filled by an AR10. Let's see who can figure out the answer?

Hint, it isn't something that can be disputed. Another hint, it has nothing to do with personal preference for a rifle. Last hint, liking, disliking, interested, disinterested in Scout rifles is irrelevant to the need they can fill that AR10's can't.
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Old 12-09-2023, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
That's probably out of a bolt gun though, right? AR ammo has to be loaded to lower pressures. The 6 ARC in a bolt gun steps right along with most of its competition.

Unfortunately, WSSM and some similar cartridges are basically dead. Not many want a gun you can't get brass or factory ammo for.
I meant specifically out of a bolt gun, though in a bolt gun people are running pressures that 6.5 Grendel is not rated for. Not that you shouldn't run 62k PSI in a bolt gun, just that the spec for Grendel is not 62k PSI because it was meant to be an AR cartridge and blowing off bolt lugs is a bummer.

6 ARC is getting there, but .243 WSSM is still faster and fits in the same length action.

Honestly, when I heard about 6 ARC and 22 ARC my first thought was "it's just .243 and .223 WSSM light"; same length action with a different bolt face and tuned for longer bullets. As much as I like the WSSMs I know they'll never come back.
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Old 12-09-2023, 8:57 PM
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It doesn't look like the WSSM would work in an AR. The base is too big. The Grendel barely fits. It's even bigger than the .308 base. I guess it might be possible to make a custom upper to fit a larger diameter bolt, but standard AR parts look too small.
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:30 PM
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It doesn't look like the WSSM would work in an AR. The base is too big. The Grendel barely fits. It's even bigger than the .308 base. I guess it might be possible to make a custom upper to fit a larger diameter bolt, but standard AR parts look too small.
Olympic arms did a custom upper for the WSSMs. It's just kind of a fun fact that the 87 grain 25 WSSM factory load would fit as a single stack in an AR mag.

That's part of the reason I think the ARCs and Grendel will survive, they fit in an AR-15 so people can buy them and convert them to the cartridge du jour in a couple of years with nothing more than a bolt and barrel (maybe mag) change.

In a scout rifle application the mini action makes a lot of sense (the WSSM action even more) in that it keeps a bolt rifle fast to cycle and light. I still think the ARCs and Grendel are too anemic for Cooper's vision though.

I will chuckle the day I see Hornady produce a bolt gun only 6 ARC Magnum with a rebated rim based on the 404 Jeffry.
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Old 12-10-2023, 9:31 AM
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I will chuckle the day I see Hornady produce a bolt gun only 6 ARC Magnum with a rebated rim based on the 404 Jeffry.
If they think there is a market for it, they will do it. The question is, can they create that market to the point that it will be profitable? It need not make sense, be practical, or relevant. It only must be able to sell, just long enough to make a good return on investment. Once it goes into obsolescence, they can sell a new product to replace it.
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