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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 09-27-2022, 7:56 AM
command_liner command_liner is offline
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Originally Posted by moleculo View Post
This brief is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. California freaking out over home CNC machines milling guns is analogous to Pope Alexander VI excommunicating anyone who had copies of manuscripts or books that were printed on a printing press without the church's approval after Gutenberg invented the movable type printing press. The ability for the average person to build a gun is just as threatening to the ruling class as the ability for the average person to read was back in late 1400/1500's and the DOJ just said as much for everyone to read for themselves.
While true, there is a better analogy.

Building guns by hand one-at-a-time can be done, but for manual mass production of firearms either 250 years ago or today, production is greatly eased by the use of file templates and dedicated machines. In fact in the US Revolutionary War, use of filing templates was important to making more guns quickly.

For a dedicated task like making lowers, it is possible to make machining templates and have the mill follow the template. Computer Numeric Control not required. Manual template control can work. And non-computer analog control also works. I used an optically guided cutting torch decades ago, but the same optical guidance can drive a vertical milling machine with analog controls and DC motors.

Want to get rid of CNC? Why? Analog controls will do just fine to make the same parts.
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  #202  
Old 09-27-2022, 8:36 AM
homelessdude homelessdude is online now
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Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
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  #203  
Old 09-27-2022, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
Seems like they may be misrepresenting an increase in crimes committed with unserialized firearms, as crime increasing because of unserialized firearms.
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  #204  
Old 09-27-2022, 9:58 AM
NorCalBusa NorCalBusa is online now
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Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
^ this. Statistics without numbers are meaningless.
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  #205  
Old 09-27-2022, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
This state has outlawed firearms that fail to incorporate non existent features. And the court upheld the law.

Making blatantly false statistical claims, without corroborative evidence is child's play.
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  #206  
Old 09-27-2022, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
Answering your last question, yes they are BS. The states of Idaho, Colorado, South Dakota, Pennsylvania, Delaware, George, Florida Vermont and Rhode Island prohibit the registration of firearms, so guns in these state are not registered. The only states that register firearms are Hawaii, California, Michigan, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. So for that vast majority of the states all firearms are "ghost guns," especially if they have been transferred after the original purchase from a FFL.
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  #207  
Old 09-27-2022, 12:48 PM
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I'm willing to bet that an firearm with a ground off serial number is considered a ghost gun as well, so stolen guns probably end up classified as ghost guns as well.
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  #208  
Old 09-27-2022, 1:09 PM
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I'm willing to bet that an firearm with a ground off serial number is considered a ghost gun as well, so stolen guns probably end up classified as ghost guns as well.
Exactly this. Bonta would like you to believe that it is easier to make a gun from a block of metal than file off the serial numbers an existing one.
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  #209  
Old 09-28-2022, 8:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Does the state not have to back up their claims? They use the term " Massive increase in gun crime due to ghost guns " twenty times in their motion but do not say what that increase actually is or what the source material is for that claim. Is this material listed somewhere in the motion and I missed it? Does anyone know what these statistics really are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphr02 View Post
Seems like they may be misrepresenting an increase in crimes committed with unserialized firearms, as crime increasing because of unserialized firearms.
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Originally Posted by NorCalBusa View Post
^ this. Statistics without numbers are meaningless.
The brief incorporates by reference A.B. 1621 at § 1, 2021-2022 Reg. Sess. (Cal. 2022)
Quote:
SECTION 1. The Legislature finds and declares the following:
(a) The proliferation of unserialized ghost guns built from firearm precursor parts has caused enormous harm and suffering, hampered the ability of law enforcement to trace crime guns and investigate firearm trafficking and other crimes, and dangerously undermined the effectiveness of laws and protections critical to the health, safety, and well-being of Californians.
[…]
(2) Law enforcement officials from cities across California have reported massive increases in the number of unserialized self-assembled ghost guns recovered from homicide cases and other crimes in recent years.
(3) For instance, law enforcement officials in San Francisco reported that 44 percent of guns recovered in San Francisco homicide cases in 2020 were unserialized ghost guns, compared with 6 percent in 2019. Law enforcement officials in San Diego reported recovering 360 ghost guns in just the first nine months of 2021, more than four times as many as the department recovered in all of 2019. According to an October 2021 report by the Los Angeles Police Department, the number of ghost guns seized by the department increased 400 percent since 2017 and more than doubled from 2020 to 2021 alone; the report concluded that “the current trend shows these figures will continue to grow exponentially” and that “ghost guns are an epidemic not only in Los Angeles, but nationwide.” In August 2021, the Los Angeles Police Department reported that ghost guns accounted for 33 percent of all guns recovered by the department in its investigations of suspected criminal activity.
(4) Community violence intervention professionals have also warned that the proliferation of ghost guns in vulnerable communities has intensified in recent years and contributed to a surge in gun deaths disproportionately impacting young people.
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  #210  
Old 09-28-2022, 10:13 AM
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Pretty lame to be ripping off Twitter and submit it as fact, especially when there is disparity in reporting what is considered as a ghost gun in said "reports"

Try googling some of this stuff and you will find it verbatim on Twitter.

There appears to be no real evidence or statistic being referenced that is truly empirical. If the bar is set at "enormous harm and suffering" then it should be qualified with facts directly relevant to the topic in question with statistics that filter out "too old for serial", or stolen but serial removed, etc.

Last edited by zeneffect; 09-28-2022 at 10:20 AM..
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  #211  
Old 09-30-2022, 7:01 AM
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A death in the family.

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Extension of Time to File Response/Reply
https://storage.courtlistener.com/re...92378.58.0.pdf
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