Hey Deckhandmike, on copper vs. lead

[Duck Killer]

Originally Posted by MJB

Copper can be very accurate infact the Navy seals use the TSX bullet in there sniper rifles.

Copper solids are bone busters designed for DG hunting in the dark continent.

I was a Tejon member early 2000's when they did a self imposed lead ban to try to appease the Condor BS.
It took a few lost pigs to figure out that copper doesn't kill like lead. It takes bone like the scapula or a frontal shot where the bullet passes through 24-30 inches of tissue....... Then it's deadly they don't move. And generally less game shot meat.

Now there's tons of copper bullets that shed their weight. Don't pass through even if you don't hit bone. It's actually all over the place which is cool. Lots of choices but it's still hard as a rock and has a learning curve.

We had the same experience at the tejon ranch. I think we were members in 2007-2009

[Duck Killer]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

This is demonstrably false. Even my .308 loaded with conventional bullets passes through all the time, and the animal still folds up.

Also demonstrably false - "you need to hit bone to get copper to expand". All the animals I've shot with copper were pass-throughs, and all had no lungs and/or hearts after being shot with a copper bullet that did not hit bone. All of them either flopped right over after being shot, or very shortly thereafter.

Like I stated if you hit specific organs the animal will die. No different then shooting a FMJ. Your copper Bullet never expanded going through heart and lungs. If your were shooting a nosler ballistic tip the animal would of died right where it stood and it would of been mush inside

[Duck Killer]

Originally Posted by JagerDog

I'll disagree at not exiting. Leaking externally assists in recovery.

Give me a substantial exit wound everytime.

Honestly most exit wound with copper rounds are very small and do not produce much of a blood trail. Lead rounds produced a lot more of a blood trail.

[yoteassasin]

Originally Posted by Duck Killer

Like I stated if you hit specific organs the animal will die. No different then shooting a FMJ. Your copper Bullet never expanded going through heart and lungs. If your were shooting a nosler ballistic tip the animal would of died right where it stood and it would of been mush inside

I’ll call bull pucky on this every time EVERY single time I’ve seen a copper bullet pass though the thoracic cavity the animal has died within. 50yds or less EVERY animal , elk , deer , pig , sheep ,bear . As a young hunter shooting pigs with fmj 223 we exclusively aimed for bone cause a lung shot would lead to hours of tracking . Copper expands fmj dose not . And just because it exits doesn’t mean it hasn’t expanded . If you are hitting liver or other stuff sure you NBT will kill better based on frag and energy dissipation. Copper kills on precision and hydrostatic shock.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Nice of you to be boving goalposts, and not addressing the discussion topic, but sure. Tell me again how less available energy and less energy transferred is better than more, while at the same time saying energy transfer is the most important thing. I'm definitely inexperienced.

Sounds like he needs more gun.

And while lodging under the far side skin is indicative of 100% energy transfer, there's no way in hell you're going to achieve that with any reliability. Just too many variables.

[deckhandmike]

Random thought. Why do you guys think lead makes such a better impact sound? Is it quicker expanding that does it or what?

Somehow I feel this answer is tied to my question about efficiency. I’ve watched a lot of random hunting videos that do the awesome slow motion bullet impacts and you can just see the animals body shudder like it got hit by a sledgehammer. Why do I feel like copper doesn’t do that on smaller game like 100# pigs.

And once again this isn’t some anti copper rant. It works great and I rather not have my family eat lead fragments. Plus I generally hit what I’m aiming at so it really hasn’t been an issue. I’m just trying to figure out why you don’t get that thump like lead. If it’s the same grain bullet going the same speed and they both expand and retain weight why does one sound totally different?

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by yoteassasin

NBT will kill better based on frag and energy dissipation. Copper kills on precision and hydrostatic shock.

Energy dissipation IS hydrostatic shock (and vice versa).

One of the phenomena I referred to back in the first few posts is the ability to stretch soft tissue beyond its elastic capacity resulting in a larger permanent wound channel than would be seen from a slower bullet. This happens because the opening of the bullet causes the bullet to slow down fast enough that it creates a pressure wave. Bullets that open more slowly (because of their design or impact velocity) do not create as much of a pressure wave. Bullets that open fast enough (because of their design or impact velocity) can create enough of a pressure wave to stretch tissue beyond its elastic capacity.

What the NBT has beyond copper bullets is LOTS of secondary missiles from partial fragmentation that will still create a larger than caliber permanent wound channel even at lower impact velocities.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

Random thought. Why do you guys think lead makes such a better impact sound? Is it quicker expanding that does it or what?

It is my opinion that in general, copper opens more slowly unless it impacts denser material like heavy muscle (including the heart), liver, (full) stomach, or bone. I believe copper bullets open in broadside lung shots, but not very quickly.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Duck Killer

... If your were shooting a nosler ballistic tip the animal would of died right where it stood and it would of been mush inside

Same with copper. Pass a copper bullet through the thoracic cavity and you get organ soup.

[Irishfisher]

Took a young man pig hunting last Sunday. Broadside double lung shot with 12ga 300gr Federal Trophy Copper Sabot. Pig ran 50 yards and collapsed. 1/2" entry wound betwenn two ribs. 1" exit wound through a rib. About 40% of lungs were reduced to mush.

[deckhandmike]

Nice! I’ll probably go get one next weekend. Was waiting for the bluefin bite to slow down. Freezer management struggles are real, lol.

[Spyder]

I shot a deer with a Barnes TTSX 12g 300g copper slug 2 weeks ago. Beautiful pass through entry and exit, organ slop, DRT deer that didn't take a single step. Too bad it didn't expend all of its energy inside the deer, so the deer wouldn't have run as far.

[SharedShots]

Originally Posted by Duck Killer

If a Bullet leaves an animal all it energy was not absorbed by the animal. Poking holes does not stop animals. Transfer of energy does.

The perfect round penetrates deep enough to go through all the vitals and does not leave the animal while expanding the maximum possible. Leaving as large wound channel as possible.

Comparing a 22 to 50 bmg doesn’t prove your point. The only real comparison is the same Bullet weight and velocity that goes through an animal verses doesn’t. And the reaction from the animal

Not so sure about that. Energy IMHO isn't doing the killing, the wounding is. I don't think the energy transfer is directly comparable to wounding because the expanding bullet's wound could be less than the same bullet that fragments (not small particles but larger).

If energy transfer was the answer then making bullets that transfer 100% of their remaining energy at impact would be simple to do and result in cleaner kills.

When DeckHandMike talks about tumbling (perhaps yawing is another way of saying it) it's not the energy transfer but rather the larger wound that contributes to the faster kill. I think he's right on that.

If the bullet passes through, the remaining energy doesn't have to be very much, it can just be enough to pass through with little energy of consequence remaining. Trying to retain that small amount of energy is unlikely to do much if it didn't pass through. That becomes a different story if the bullet then travels over the hill and 400 yards away.

If it's energy that is the killer then that doesn't account for minor cartridges that create wounding far out of proportion to their energy when compared to larger calibers/cartridges with far more energy but not necessarily more effective.

The animal with no lungs doesn't know what it was hit with but regardless of whether it was a 22 or 6.5/7/30 it's not going to live. It's not even a guarantee that the 22 doesn't put the animal down as fast at the others, there is enough anecdotal information to say it's true.

While the energy matters to get the bullet deep enough that the wounds matter, whether the bullet rests on the far side or punches through but drops to the ground some yards away isn't making the difference - again IMHO, the quality of wounds created make the difference.

Perhaps the development of copper hasn't reached the point where it can be as consistent as lead, it's simply a different material and try as they can, even small changes in velocity seem to have a more significant effect on the copper being consistent. I don't think the velocities needed to make copper consistent have been figured out using the materials available. Lead has had a lot longer to mature as they say, in development, it's not a guess anymore.

Take a copper bullet recovered and a conventional cup and core bullet. Often, that cup and core bullet has such sharp edges it can cut you just digging it out with your fingers. The copper seems to be more like dull blades except for the ones like the Lehighs with their razor sharp petals. The cup and core that "tumbles" exposes that razor sharp cup that isn't pushing or moving anything out of it's way, it's cutting it's path.

Perhaps what Deckhandmike is alluding to is that the path of the bullet can be much longer than the ones that drives in a more or less straight line which also has more potential to exit. The one that yaws and thus takes a path in a different direction is wounding all the way until it stops and if is cup and core, it's presentation is often to the side.

If the bullet doesn't exit, the energy transfer is 100%, lead or copper, straight path or tumble. Don't the 22 at 3100 fps and the 7mm at 3000 both transfer 100% of their energy if they don't exit? If the 22 expands and the 7mm doesn't or doesn't very much as we see the 22 putting the animal down where it stood while the one hit with the 7mm ran off, how does that explain the disparity of energy transferred when the 7mm had so much more? Bullet performance even if the hits were as identical as could be. The temporary wound channels are measured in milliseconds.

Does the nick in the aorta that comes from a "tumbler" become the greater factor that the jello lungs if the tumbler was a 6mm and the straight path was a 30 or larger?

Just opinions and not suggesting that anyone look for bullets that tumble, only that it could matter far more than transferred energy. If it was all about energy transfer, then it wouldn't be such a big deal to load up for the distance expected and have some for other distances. There isn't so far that I've seen, a reliable way to take factory produced ammo that transfers 100% at one distance have it do that at many others anymore than the 7mm that transfers 100% into a Hirsch is going to do the same to a Roe. Properly hit, both are dead when hit but the energy remaining in the bullet that passed through the roe isn't doing anything and it's likely going a long way afterwards.
















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[Trapper]

Last year I shot a 22” 4x4 with a 145gr LRX out of a 280ai, complete pass through and the buck died in his tracks. This year I shot a 25” 3x3 with a 139gr LRX, the bullet didn’t exit and the buck died in his tracks. Neither deer seemed significantly more dead than the other.

[deckhandmike]

I wonder if they could make softer non lead alloys? Seems like it should be possible. I love my ttsx but I could use something thing in between a varmint grenade and a ttsx. I haven’t tried the lrx yet. Might be what I’m looking for.

And yes copper hits like a spear and lead like a grenade/sledge hammer. I want a bigger wound channel and exit hole out of a smaller caliber. Especially if I’m aiming for lungs/heart. I prefer to not blow out a shoulder if I don’t have to.

Don’t get me wrong, copper hitting vitals is a 100% effective but I want a larger exit wound to make for easier tracking when they run into the brush, even if it’s just 50 yards.

I think the ttsx shines for longer range and larger bodied animals. If I was hunting elk copper is what I want. But for 100# pigs at 30 yards it seems overly solid.

[Kurgan]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

I wonder if they could make softer non lead alloys? Seems like it should be possible. I love my ttsx but I could use something thing in between a varmint grenade and a ttsx. I haven’t tried the lrx yet. Might be what I’m looking for.

And yes copper hits like a spear and lead like a grenade/sledge hammer. I want a bigger wound channel and exit hole out of a smaller caliber. Especially if I’m aiming for lungs/heart. I prefer to not blow out a shoulder if I don’t have to.

Don’t get me wrong, copper hitting vitals is a 100% effective but I want a larger exit wound to make for easier tracking when they run into the brush, even if it’s just 50 yards.

I was thinking Bismuth but it's probably too brittle.

[Spyder]

Cutting Edge makes brass bullets, which doesn't exactly help the softer part, but it's an option. I have not experimented with them yet.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I shot a deer with a Barnes TTSX 12g 300g copper slug 2 weeks ago. Beautiful pass through entry and exit, organ slop, DRT deer that didn't take a single step. Too bad it didn't expend all of its energy inside the deer, so the deer wouldn't have run as far.

Those saboted slugs are the shiznit. I loved 'em when I was hunting CA pigs.

[Imageview]

Meat eater put out an interesting video on this topic a few weeks back, not that I think they are the be all end all of anything really, but it definitely appeared to show many of the things described in this thread (even with the caveat they have a really cozy relationship with federal). At medium distances in their test copper performed similarly to bonded, and was particularly nasty if it struck bone. At long distances bonded was a more consistent performer as copper had issues with expansion as velocity dropped. And at shorter distances cup and core was almost explosive in gel.

A bismuth tin alloy inside a copper jacket seems like it might be a good idea to investigate, but the production costs and r&d would both be expensive. If more states went lead free (not something I am advocating for for the record) that might make it more worthwhile for companies to invest, but right now the market is still fairly limited. With the UK going lead free and the EU not far behind I suspect that the big euro manufacturers might end up innovating more as there will be more demand there than here perhaps.

[deckhandmike]

Fun thread guys. Thanks for playing along. For all the time we spend on rifles and scopes I feel like bullets get often passed over and are probably the most important thing. Interesting to hear from others that actually shoot stuff. I know what works, but I don’t always know why.

All you ever hear is XYZ kills stuff good. But rarely do we talk about how and why. There are so many nuances such as speed, bullet performance and how the animals body plays a role.

Found the video. https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/fi...-ballistic-gel

Great video and actually confirms some of what I thought about bullets tumbling, range, speed, and target density.

[NapalmCheese]

Originally Posted by JagerDog

Oh great! Now I have to establish their breathing patterns before pulling the trigger.


If animals were made out of ballistic gel, this would be so much easier.

Don't forget to time the impact between heartbeats to ensure no more oxygenated blood gets into the brain.

Also, don't forget to sneak up and get a temperature (orally or rectally, you're call) and get a written note stating the animals enthusiastic consent to being shot.

I'm actually kind of curious if damp sponges might not be a good test medium to replicate lungs. Maybe next time I hit up BLM I'll bring a "sponge box".

[deckhandmike]

That meateater video is very informative. Worth a watch.

Based on the video I’ll be switching to bone shots when an animal is close to a ravine or poison oak etc. If in the open I’ll stick to heart shots. Would love to get a copper core with a softer fragmentation tip someday. I really like how the cup and core bullets performed in the video for close range lung shots.

I think my suspicions of the slower copper at short range are tumbling giving me slightly more energy transferred. That bullet is coming out sideways like I thought. And the faster stuff is going straight through like a spear. Both work, but know I got a better feeling of what’s going to make for a shorter tracking job for the lung shots.

I might even start messing with the heavier copper bullets since I’m not shooting past a 100 yards. Interested to see how those work.

[stonefly-2]

I guess we can expect more design improvement but I'm not sure I yet understand what is lacking even after this very good discussion.

For now I will just shoot for bone but here's an interesting design that last I checked is not on the approved list.

If this performs as advertised it could be a game changer....@ about 4:15.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN9y6YvTUYk

[Irishfisher]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

Based on the video I’ll be switching to bone shots when an animal is close to a ravine or poison oak etc. If in the open I’ll stick to heart shots.

For pig shots when they are near cover, I prefer head/neck shots. Usually, they drop right there. They might still be alive flopping, but the impact to the brain/central nervous system usually sustantially limits their ability to flee. Front shoulder shots which miss the vitals can result in a three legged pig that goes a long way before laying down to die.

[deckhandmike]

Yeah, I’ll probably just do head shots in those situations then. I’m shooting close range on non pressured animals.

[180ls1]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

I wonder if they could make softer non lead alloys? Seems like it should be possible. I love my ttsx but I could use something thing in between a varmint grenade and a ttsx. I haven’t tried the lrx yet. Might be what I’m looking for.

And yes copper hits like a spear and lead like a grenade/sledge hammer. I want a bigger wound channel and exit hole out of a smaller caliber. Especially if I’m aiming for lungs/heart. I prefer to not blow out a shoulder if I don’t have to.

Don’t get me wrong, copper hitting vitals is a 100% effective but I want a larger exit wound to make for easier tracking when they run into the brush, even if it’s just 50 yards.

I think the ttsx shines for longer range and larger bodied animals. If I was hunting elk copper is what I want. But for 100# pigs at 30 yards it seems overly solid.

Hammer is working on such a bullet.

[FishnHunt]

I have faith in my 06 with 168 ttsx. I’d use it on about anything that walks.
Got 7 elk from 40-400 yards and all pass through. Even through shoulder.
I also shot a cow in utah last year with Stout hand load and close up, using 180 game kings and bullet performed flawlessly.
I shoot cup/core all season long and save the expensive mono for hunting.