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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:40 AM
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5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong

"Summary: The majority of the experts I consulted over the course of my research did not feel that there was a major difference between .223 and 5.56 chambers in terms of pressure."

At least this is an actual study, even if sample is small, instead of seat of the pants opinion.

For the record, I do shoot 5.56 NATO (SME (Malaysian) 55 gr M193 Ball/FMJ) in T/C Contender .223 Rem 14" barrel and in Savage .223 Rem 12BVSS with 1/9 twist.
So far nothing blew up yet.
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  #42  
Old 12-10-2018, 7:44 AM
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I will concede when you fire a 5.56 round in a quality/strong 223 Bolt gun, prob the most you will get is a flattened primer.

However how many novice guys out there reading this forum know what makes a quality/strong rifle?

When giving advice on an open forum about safety, we should all use caution!!!

What happens when someone on here reads its ok to fire the 5.56, then puts one in his Contender or worse yet an H&R top break.

When manufactures say its not OK to do it, we should not be handing out advice otherwise.

In the 70's and early 80's I managed one of the big chain gun stores here in So. Cal. I made it a store policy about giving loading advice, when a customer asked about loading data, the employee was required to pull a book out and look it up. If it wasn't in the book, it wasn't OK. Personal pet loads were not allowed to be discussed.

How many of you remember why the Grant Boys in Anaheim went out of business?

Just not worth the chance IMHO. I done.....
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  #43  
Old 12-10-2018, 9:07 AM
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Cannot believe this still being debated, its about as relevant as figuring out if you can get hit by a car crossing the street wearing sneakers or your better off wearing .loafers.
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  #44  
Old 12-10-2018, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsh00ter View Post
I will concede when you fire a 5.56 round in a quality/strong 223 Bolt gun, prob the most you will get is a flattened primer.
I agree, if a person sticks to 5.56 that is loaded to external dimensions (including bullet shape and protrusion) within the spec for 223 Rem, and checks diligently for overpressure signs, it's probably OK in a sturdy bolt gun. I can't like it though, and anyone who understands what all that means probably doesn't need this thread.

I just bought a 5.56 bolt gun and called it a day.
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  #45  
Old 12-10-2018, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsh00ter View Post
How many of you remember why the Grant Boys in Anaheim went out of business?
Wern't they the Dicks Sporting Goods of the '90's? With the same results?
Made a big deal about not selling the evil black rifles??
Good store at one time.
Off the subject, but----
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  #46  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsh00ter View Post
I will concede when you fire a 5.56 round in a quality/strong 223 Bolt gun, prob the most you will get is a flattened primer.

However how many novice guys out there reading this forum know what makes a quality/strong rifle?

When giving advice on an open forum about safety, we should all use caution!!!

What happens when someone on here reads its ok to fire the 5.56, then puts one in his Contender or worse yet an H&R top break.

When manufactures say its not OK to do it, we should not be handing out advice otherwise.

In the 70's and early 80's I managed one of the big chain gun stores here in So. Cal. I made it a store policy about giving loading advice, when a customer asked about loading data, the employee was required to pull a book out and look it up. If it wasn't in the book, it wasn't OK. Personal pet loads were not allowed to be discussed.

How many of you remember why the Grant Boys in Anaheim went out of business?

Just not worth the chance IMHO. I done.....
See the post just above yours.
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  #47  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:34 AM
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Thanks for the link to that article. It was very well written. However it really doesn't quite answer the question. At one point he states...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOdessa View Post
5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong

"Summary: The majority of the experts I consulted over the course of my research did not feel that there was a major difference between .223 and 5.56 chambers in terms of pressure."
...


but then he concludes...

Quote:
.223 Remington ... As stated above, you are not likely to encounter major problems with limited amounts of 5.56 in a .223 rifle fired out of necessity or in an emergency. Doing so at a high volume for the long term is probably not a good idea.
I'm no sure how he makes the leap from "no major difference" to "probably not a good idea". Seems like a leap of logic.
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  #48  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6mmintl View Post
Cannot believe this still being debated, its about as relevant as figuring out if you can get hit by a car crossing the street wearing sneakers or your better off wearing .loafers.
I'd be more comfortable in the loafers.
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  #49  
Old 12-10-2018, 1:28 PM
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Default Living dangerously

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOdessa View Post
See the post just above yours.
That is your choice to do so.

What I am concerned about is giving advice to others that contradicts what manufactures advise against.

Personally I don't do it.
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  #50  
Old 12-10-2018, 1:55 PM
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Internet advice is worth about as much as it costs.
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  #51  
Old 12-10-2018, 2:09 PM
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Default its not internet advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by sd joe View Post
Internet advice is worth about as much as it costs.
Its not internet advice, it is Manufactures Liability Statements.

Beating a dead horse, I'm done.
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  #52  
Old 12-10-2018, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramsh00ter View Post
What happens when someone on here reads its ok to fire the 5.56, then puts one in his Contender or worse yet an H&R top break.
Sometimes stuck cases if it has an ejector and not an extractor with the H&R.
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  #53  
Old 12-10-2018, 3:04 PM
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Why would any one purposely and deliberately shoot 5.56 rounds out of 223 chambered rifle? For what? Just because you saw a few boxes running around in your house? Just to prove your ego holds the ultimate truth and other guys don't know jack?

So... exactly how many rounds of 5.56 ran through the 223 chamber? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? So, in your opinion, whatever the number of trial is, that's good enough of research to over turn all the experts in small arms manufacturing?

Now, ask yourself who's the real FUD is.

I never seen a 223 rifle went bang because of 5.56 rounds. Because none of guys at my range is that foolish and even for the guys who shot 5.56 rounds, started to shoot correct rounds after a box or so. So, if any one asks me, no I never seen it happened.

Then, why I don't advise shoot 5.56 rounds out of 223? Because SAAMI says so, Federal says so, Hornardy says so, list goes on and on, believe me. Is any one here bigger than these guys??? I don't think so.

As a shooter and a reloader, I will never jeopardize my own safety over some ego.
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  #54  
Old 12-10-2018, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpark09 View Post
Why would any one purposely and deliberately shoot 5.56 rounds out of 223 chambered rifle? For what? Just because you saw a few boxes running around in your house? Just to prove your ego holds the ultimate truth and other guys don't know jack?


So... exactly how many rounds of 5.56 ran through the 223 chamber? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? So, in your opinion, whatever the number of trial is, that's good enough of research to over turn all the experts in small arms manufacturing?

Now, ask yourself who's the real FUD is.

I never seen a 223 rifle went bang because of 5.56 rounds. Because none of guys at my range is that foolish and even for the guys who shot 5.56 rounds, started to shoot correct rounds after a box or so. So, if any one asks me, no I never seen it happened.

Then, why I don't advise shoot 5.56 rounds out of 223? Because SAAMI says so, Federal says so, Hornardy says so, list goes on and on, believe me. Is any one here bigger than these guys??? I don't think so.

As a shooter and a reloader, I will never jeopardize my own safety over some ego.
If your a reloader the difference between a 223 Remington and a 5.56X45 NATO is 0.036 of seating depth right?
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  #55  
Old 12-10-2018, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
If your a reloader the difference between a 223 Remington and a 5.56X45 NATO is 0.036 of seating depth right?


Is that what your reloading manuals say? Mine don’t, there are powder weight differences listed.


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  #56  
Old 12-10-2018, 3:51 PM
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I've shot NATO spec 5.56 in standard .223 chambers off and on since the mid 70s and all body parts are still attached.

May we discuss .308 and 7.62mm NATO now
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  #57  
Old 12-10-2018, 3:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpark09 View Post
Now, ask yourself who's the real FUD is.
Or since this horse is beat dead, we could switch to discussing people who don't understand what FUD stands for I guess.
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  #58  
Old 12-10-2018, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
If your a reloader the difference between a 223 Remington and a 5.56X45 NATO is 0.036 of seating depth right?
Seating depth? I believe they are the same on the book; around 2.26". Did you mean to say freebore length? Yes, they are about at .0316" difference in jump. The number is correct, I can't keep all these numbers in my head so had to look it up in my data files.

It's not the dimension that worries me. It's the higher pressure that may or may not go bang. 5.56 will produce merely 5% or more of pressure, but for an unfortunate rifle and it's owner, accumulated pressure in lengthy time will just may write the history.
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  #59  
Old 12-10-2018, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
I've shot NATO spec 5.56 in standard .223 chambers off and on since the mid 70s and all body parts are still attached.

May we discuss .308 and 7.62mm NATO now
Now, that's a real myth. One thing that I suddenly realized working on both charges, .308 is definitely on the higher side, no doubt.

So, just to be on the safer side, I load bolt .308 chamber at higher node and load semi 7.62 barrel at a notch lower node.
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  #60  
Old 12-10-2018, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
Is that what your reloading manuals say? Mine don’t, there are powder weight differences listed.


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No it's what the SAAMI spec says
The 223 Remington has 0.025 of freebore and the 5.56X45 NATO has 0.061
If you reload wouldn't you start at book minimum and work up from there?
My reloading manual lists 80 grain Sierra MatchKing s that weren't around when either round was developed.
My 243 was built before the 105-108 grain bullets were ever built as well.
I also own a 244 Remington a 6mm Remington a 280 and a 7mm express.
So yes if you reload the difference is 0.036 in seating depth right?
Can I use 5.56X45 brass in a 223 if I reload?
Do I start at book maximum when using Lake City brass? My reloading manual doesn't say anything about it?
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-10-2018 at 5:34 PM..
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  #61  
Old 12-10-2018, 8:49 PM
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Default 556-223

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
No it's what the SAAMI spec says
Ok sorry was misinterpreting thought you meant *only* difference if you’re reloading was depth. Depth and powder yes. Yes lots of us reload bullets that didn’t exist when the spec was developed, but starting should always be less than max powder and at or near min COAL rather than pushing it out into the lands, or however close to it your current bullets are.

The brass is ok at least 5.56 NATO brass like LC being used at 223 pressure and seating depth, the difference is primarily case volume. Essentially interchangeable unless going to higher than 223 spec pressures, then commercial 223 brass not a great idea, still it’s the chamber that is going to “make or break” the deal not the brass.

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Last edited by lordmorgul; 12-10-2018 at 8:53 PM..
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  #62  
Old 12-17-2018, 12:39 AM
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When you reload .223 or 5.56, it doesn't really matter anymore. It's simply when you load to the point that your load is still safe, either at minimum, medium, or right under maximum pressure, and provides the best group, then there you go. Always do chronograph to compare with reloading books, and check for signs on fired cases.
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  #63  
Old 12-17-2018, 2:12 AM
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Default YES

I have the straight barrel Ruger Ranch Rifle that says .223. I E-mailed Ruger Support with the serial # Starting with 195, and they said that the Rifle would handle 5.56 with no problems.
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  #64  
Old 12-17-2018, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LuckyGuy View Post
I have the straight barrel Ruger Ranch Rifle that says .223. I E-mailed Ruger Support with the serial # Starting with 195, and they said that the Rifle would handle 5.56 with no problems.
Yes, page 13 from the instructions manual.
Only the "Target" model is restricted to .223 Remington.
The Mothers of Cal Guns may now rest their knitting needles....
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  #65  
Old 12-17-2018, 2:39 PM
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I remember long ago, pre M4carbine "the chart", when popped primers were a "thing".

Anywho, Tuohy ( "vuurwapen" ) wrote up a great piece for lucky gunner years ago...

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

-- Michael
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