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Blades, Bows and Tools Discussion of non-firearm weapons and camping/survival tools.

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  #1  
Old 11-26-2020, 8:52 AM
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Red face Skinning bears in the Boogaloo, and other knife mysteries...

To start with, I know practically zilch about modern, high-end, EXPENSIVE, knives.

Yes - I've been carrying my Boy Scout pocket knife daily, for 40+ years - I got my whittlin' chip in '78; my Paul Bunyan award in '79 - I know that the only thing a dull blade will cut, is YOURSELF... and other such wisdom from the ol' BSA Hand & Field books. Got Woodcarving merit badge in '79 - taught it on summer camp staff in '82, soooo... YES. I know how a knife, "works."

THAT said, I recently saw a Microtech knife (I'm ONLY picking on them because I SAW it - I know there are others in the same ballpark, so I'm NOT singling them out), listed for over $400! Not TOO long ago, you coulda bought a nice Ruger P-89 for LESS than that!!!

Living here in the United States as I do, I have a valid SHALL-issue carry permit (LTCF in PA), and do carry most everywhere, so I'm generally prepared (and trained!) to repel two-legged predators. In reading a LOT of blade forum posts, I see guys carry knives that look ready to skin bears, beluga whales, seal pups, deer, etc., and apparently on a daily basis.

In addition to my trusty 43 year old BSA pocketknife, I - reluctantly - bought a CRKT M-16, to stuff into the webbing of my battlebelt - as I understand BSA pocketknives will apparently NOT function during the Boogaloo, and something more expensive and fancy-looking is necessary.

While I do not PLAN on fighting Tommy Lee Jones on the bridge of the USS Missouri during the apocalypse, apparently I'm not "serious" about my survival preparations, unless I carry a knife capable of defeating Conan's broadsword, and that costs 3 bills at a minimum.

Could someone explain the doctrine of the modern tactical knife, so that a poor layman can both understand it... and perhaps even AFFORD it?

Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2020, 9:51 AM
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it is all overblown hype intent on trying to get you to spend more money - the best knife in the world is the one you have in your pocket, the one you will actually carry, the one that you are not afraid to use in a daily basis even if it is not for its intended purpose... it is a tool & meant to be used not to post pictures of it on Instagram... the simple act of having one in your pocket makes you better prepared than one who doesn't.
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Old 11-26-2020, 9:57 AM
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The word “tactical” on the label is key. Without that, you got nothin.
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:30 AM
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For skinning it is hard to beat a Havalon. Snap in scalpel blades for the win.

I asked a retired Swat friend of mine if he had anything sharp on him one day. He handed me a stainless steel Piranta. Said he got it from the coroner.

https://www.havalon.com/piranta-fitment-2
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:52 AM
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Do you prefer Bear Creak rifles or Daniel Defense? They both do the same job (most of the time).

It's not all hype.

Been a knifmaker for over 10 years.

Biggest factors are steel choice and heat treatment. Some steel requires longer thermal soak times at hotter temps...this costs money. Some require special quench procedures and even a soak in liquid nitrogen to bring out the best...again this costs money.

I send my knives off to Peter's in PA, they do the works including the sub cryo. Costs me $20 per knife with shipping and all.

Anyway, these higher end steels tend to be more wear reaistant, this makes them hold an edge longer but harder to machine post heat treat...this costs more money from additional wear and tear on tooling and belts.

Choice of handle materials comes in to play as well.

By the time I'm done with a knife, I have at least $40 in to it just in materials.

I guarantee one of my 52100 blades will out cut anything you can find in a box store.

ETA: I'm personally sick of "super steel". Yeah they're more wear risistant and tougher but with the volume of knives I sharpen annually, I hate sharpening them. They wewr out my stones faster and take alot more effort. Will they hold an edge longer?...yes. But that comes at a price since there's no free lunch.

Last edited by WalterJones; 11-26-2020 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 11-26-2020, 9:20 PM
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This is a gun forum. People here will tell you that if you value your life you best not carry a Hi-Point. Everyone who actually OWNS a Hi-Point says theirs either runs flawlessly, or they sent it back for free warranty repair or replace until it did run flawlessly but they wouldn't trust their life to it for some reason.

Because it's not cool and owning a Hi-Point doesn't tell all the other forum people how much more about guns you know than they do.

So it goes on knife forums.

Most people don't need a one handed operating, ball bearing pivoted, 5 inch bladed, super steel knife that could cut Sauron in half with one flick; but the 'real' knife people will come up with some reason why you're an idiot for not also having one. It makes them feel good about spending a few hundred dollars on a glorified box cutter.

When it comes to last ditch weaponry, I'd rather have a sharp stick or a club than a knife.
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Old 11-27-2020, 7:27 PM
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Most importantly is how it feels in your hand.
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Old 12-05-2020, 1:05 PM
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Hey OP, I was just like you. I started with a Boy Scout knife, then bought some inexpensive Buck knives that I used for hunting. The Buck knives required that I have a sharpener with me in the field. A couple of years ago a client of mine was a knife aficionado and he introduced me to some mid range higher end and quality knives such as Zero Tolerance, Spyderco, Bark River and Benchmade. Their steels are harder and the knives are built to last and endure a beating. My favorite everyday knife is the Sypderco Paramiltary II. My favorite knife to take camping is the Bark River Bravo 1, it is a tank of a knife.
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Old 12-05-2020, 1:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
For skinning it is hard to beat a Havalon. Snap in scalpel blades for the win.

I asked a retired Swat friend of mine if he had anything sharp on him one day. He handed me a stainless steel Piranta. Said he got it from the coroner.

https://www.havalon.com/piranta-fitment-2
I have the one with the scalpel on one end and a regular blade on the other best of both .

https://www.havalon.com/titan-wred-insert-1-fixed-
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2020, 11:49 AM
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I agree with OP regarding the need for a basic sharp blade. Most tasks don't require a huge blade. I find that a lot of people don't know how to get their knives really sharp in the first place so a lot of advantages of super steels are lost on them. I have butchered hundreds of deer, maybe a dozen steers and pigs (not a pro, just the guy in my hunting group that has sharp knives and grew up on a ranch.). My favorites over the years have been a dozier skinner in d2 with a 3.5 inch blade, a roselli puuko with a 3 inch blade and an old no name carbon steel boning knife with a 5 inch blade. The biggest item I use is a full size bone saw.
If I had to survive rough conditions in the north woods I need an axe . Going to try the piranta system next antelope hunt as a replacement for the boning knife. The only big knives I find useful are chef/santuko type knives.

In terms of knives used against people I would read the writings of ed Calderon and Craig Douglas (think something closer to a paring knife than a big Bowie.). The big exception to the above would be actually being deployed in a war zone, then something a little longer and stouter for all sorts of uses is indicated, or so I have been told by the combat veterans in my family and group of friends.
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Old 12-16-2020, 3:46 PM
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i have more expensive higher quality knives because i can! But what is expensive is relative ymmv.

No need to settle for cheap. But having said that I do have a brake on Spending and she knows when I get a new toy be it gun or knife. Then a new Purse purchase happens!��
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2020, 8:42 PM
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No need to settle for cheap.

I QUITE agree. As a knife 'noob,' however, what is the cutoff between "good enough," and "YOU, as a noob, CAN'T wring all the 'capability' out of this?"

In AR's, BCM is "good enough" for me, whereas I'm NOT the shooter to wring everything out of a KAC it's capable of... so I don't SPEND those bucks. Ditto, in that a SA Operator is a "good enough" 1911 for me, but a Cabot Arms is out of my price AND "capability" range.

Trying to get "ENOUGH" knife, without blowing the kid's college fund, is kinda the dividing line I'm trying to find here.
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Old 12-16-2020, 11:26 PM
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I think I misunderstood your original post thinking you were asking for advice on how to get a great knife you can depend on that will be useful as an all around tool but serve as a weapon if necessary for not huge sums of money.

I think instead you're asking what we think you should get that is a little more gucci than the former category but not ridiculous.

Get on blade forums, go to the Redmeadow subforum. Talk to the guy that makes the knives, have him build you a bowie around 7 inches. Now you can say you have a custom!

Barring that, has anyone told you to get a Sebenza yet? Becuase it often seems like that's the minimum requirement to be a 'knife guy' on blade forums, everyone else being poseurs. They're built like tanks and could cut the earth in half, but most people just polish them and use their 'beater' knife so they don't get their Sebenza dirty.

Becker BK9s are well thought of, as is the ESEE Junglas if you want to keep up with the big knife theme. The Becker BK5 if you can find one is a nice trailing point with bonafides as a heavy duty knife. I wish I had picked on up as I'm not willing to pay for them now. And I have basically zero need for an 8 inch knife.

Copper and clad has a Buck 124 in 5160 steel for $180.00; you could be classy AND buy American. Though the 'real' knife people will tell you that the hollow grind is no good for tactical bushcrafting, and the shiny blade will give away your position as you take out sentries.

Everybody likes the Cold Steel Trailmaster.

Or just get a Russel and make sure everyone can see it.
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Old 12-17-2020, 5:03 AM
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I have never once regretted any purchase of a Microtech.

I have 5 so far.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post

Everybody likes the Cold Steel Trailmaster.
I don't like it... but that is probably just me be being a Bastard, as I've never heard of it before reading your post.

as for the Sebenza I only know one person who has one, he actually carries it, but if I'm being honest... while it is nice, I don't really like it & I can't understand why anyone would be willing to spend that much on one.

I have a bunch of knives that range from cheap to a decent mid range but no matter what I pick up, no matter what I think is going to be the newest latest and greatest EDC I get... I always seem to go right back to the ZT that I have been carrying for years

what I am getting at is that knives are personal and what I like and look for in a knife is going to be different from the next guy and the next.... something with good steel that will hold an edge, the right size/weight that feels right in the hand and your preferred locking system and clip (I am super picky about this one) but not too nice that you are afraid to carry it... anything beyond that, in my opinion, is just for show and just something to bring out and show your friends or to post pictures of on instagram
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Old 12-26-2020, 3:16 PM
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ZT is usually too heavy in pocket for me
So I don’t carry mine much
Spyderco and Benchmade are good/decent- at 100-150$
A Case trapper or SAK is more useful-you’re not missing anything.
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Old 12-26-2020, 6:04 PM
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First question would be do you want a folder? Then buy a Spyderco Paramilitary II or Benchmade Bugout.

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyder...litary-2--7946


https://www.benchmade.com/bugout-family.html





Second if you want a Fixed blade on a budget that is still a fantastic knife, buy a Cold Steel SRK or if you're feeling a bit more spendy, an ESEE 6 or Laser Strike.

https://www.coldsteel.com/srk-sk-5/


https://www.amazon.com/ESEE-Strike-M...8-6acff948fa5a


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084BZFLXH...ding=UTF8&th=1






All of these would make fantastic knives for a battle belt. Just depends on if you're feeling stabby stabby, or if you're feeling more bushy bushcraft.
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Old 12-28-2020, 7:59 AM
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OP, I too am a knife maker and I don't get the tactical knife thing either. Never have. Yet lots of my knives have been carried by guys that really are tactical (SF team members), to dark places all over the world. Guess some of them guys don't get the tactical knife thing either. In fact one of em bought my own personal hunting knife as I didn't have any ready for sale and he was deploying now, he didn't have time to wait for me to build him one. He sent me some selfies with it. He said some guys, went someplace to do some things:



I am thankful we have these guys, that are willing to go someplace and do somethings.

Course I don't get the sharpened pry bar idea either. Once read on a forum a guy whining cause his new knife he bought (it was a whiz bang latest and greatest tactical) dulled when he was push cutting 16 penny nails! Another was upset that he stabbed his knife into a tree trunk and it snapped when he stepped on it to use it like a ladder. Guess there's lots of things I don't get.

As far as price goes, some good knives are expensive its true. Mine are. More so than I like. But thats what it costs me to make them and sell them at a profit. I'm fortunate I guess, because I come from and am very well known, as are my knives, in the subculture of ranching, cowboying, buckaroos, working horsemen etc. The vast majority of the knives I make are aimed at this market. Folks in this deal appreciate, almost demand, handmade and are willing to wait for it and pay for it. You'll have a working cowboy making $1500-$1800 a month and raising his family on that and he's riding a saddle that cost $5000 and he waited two years for it. Those reins might have cost a $1000 and that fancy silver inlaid bridle bit, $2500 (might of waited 3 or 4 years for the bit, we have). On the other hand they are extremely practical folks. My son, a working cowboy, put down a nice cow elk this year. Realized he didn't have anything to use to drag her back to camp, so he used his belt I'd made him:



Then his wife and sister in law jumped in and took care of the chores. They use a big tactical knife? A Bowie? Nope. 3/4 years back I'd made my daughter in law a Poco. A Poco is Dave (me), Spanish for not enough steel left to make a Gordo, (a Gordo is another small knife I make, Gordo roughly translates as chubby boy). So this Poco has about a 1 7/8" blade, yet got er done:





It did what knives are suppose to do..... cut stuff. Thats what my knives are made for. For the most part they are carried and used by folks that understand that. Even the fancy ones:

















They get er done:



This I get. Other stuff not so much.

Last edited by Horsewright; 12-28-2020 at 8:01 AM..
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Old 12-28-2020, 1:33 PM
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I still don't get what he exactly wants to DO with said knife.
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Old 12-28-2020, 6:38 PM
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I still don't get what he exactly wants to DO with said knife.

I'm still not sure what a $500 knife does, that a $50 knife DOESN'T!
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Old 12-29-2020, 8:12 AM
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
I'm still not sure what a $500 knife does, that a $50 knife DOESN'T!
That one is actually not that difficult but I can only answer from the custom side of things not from the more high end factory stuff.

1) Better steels. There is a wide array of steels that make great knives. They have different attributes and characteristics. They are not a one size fits all kinda deal like the $50 pocket knife is gonna be. What are your needs and wants. There are steels that can fill that. I make a lot of knives as mentioned for cowboying. High on a cowboy's list is ease of resharpening. If you're at a branding and you have a 150 bull calves to cut before lunch, your knife is gonna need a touch up no matter what steel its made of. A few stropping stokes on a chap leg and they want to be back in business. Or perhaps using the top of the truck window. Get er done and back in business, here comes another calf getting drug to the fire. A hunter on the other hand, he's got that big bull elk down, its coming on to dark, its starting to snow sideways and your pack horses are starting to get snorty cause they hear that big griz huffing out there, like you do too. This guy has knife work to do and no time to stop and resharpen a knife. Edge holding ability becomes paramount to many hunters. Edge holding and ease of sharpening are not diametrically opposed but often are thought to be. These are just two examples but there are steels that make great cowboy knives and steels that make great hunters. Needs are different. What if you are a kayaker, or saltwater fisherman There are steels that make excellent knives for these uses too.

2) Heat treating. Part science, part art, part black magic and lots of experience. Heat treating can make or break the knife. Each steel has its own formula and variations of that formula for what you are trying to accomplish with that blade. They are NOT interchangeable. I too as the other knife maker above mentioned use Peters Heat Treat in PA fo the vast majority of my knives and have for many years. I send 100 plus blades of the two main steels I work in at a time. They bring out the best in the steel and they test the blades to make sure the heat treat is correct and consistent from blade to blade. And the blades are straight! Grab ya a handful of $50 knives and you will have a bowed blade here and there, just is.

3) Quality. Not just in the steel, not just in the heat treat but in build quality and handle materials and also sheaths for fixed blades. Couple years back a local guy brought me one of the factory knives that were posted above. He wanted me to re handle it for him in nice wood. He also wanted to know if I would strip the black coating on the blade and do an acid etch. Sure no biggie and yeah it turned out to be a big deal as it was one of the poorest ground blades I'd ever seen. Plunges were crooked and uneven from side to side, the flats were not flat and there were divots in the primary bevels along the blade. Fortunately it was thick knife, more of a sharpened pry bar, so there was plenty of material to work with. Need the flats sot the new scales would fit properly and with out the black painted coating you were gonna see the divots. Took me longer to fix that, then it would for me to make one of my blades.

4) Pride of ownership. Does anyone really need a custom knife? Probably not. But they do want and they will do better some things than the $50 knife, for sure. But absolutely need? Nah. However, I go to a roping or something and I start talking to a guy I don't know cause he's wearing one of my knives. Pretty soon he's pulling it out and bragging on it and showing it to me even though he doesn't know I made it. Ya get great honest feed back too when they don't know who you are. But pride of ownership is there and a thing. Like ya have a cheap, imported rattle trap 1911. It may even go bang every time and you might like it. But ya shell out the dough for a custom 1911 or semi custom or even a high end factory job and ya feel better about it. I do. Same deal. If you gotta cut stuff ya might as well do it with some style!



There's probably more but thats just off the top of my head.


BTW War Wagon, always enjoy your posts.

Last edited by Horsewright; 12-29-2020 at 8:15 AM..
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Old 12-29-2020, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
I'm still not sure what a $500 knife does, that a $50 knife DOESN'T!

DO, nothing. Bragging rights. Maybe holds an edge better if the steel is some new super steel. ESEE does a pretty good job with heat treating their 1095 and it holds up really well. I've beat the piss out of mine. I have a knockoff ESEE that I got for 20 bucks. It was the best $20.00 I've EVER spent on a knife. I have abused that thing beyond belief and it's honestly held up every bit as well as my esee knives have. I use it as a fishing knife. I got it because of the looks, but when I got it, it was an exact copy of an ESEE 3 that I also own. There are a few good production knives that I'll get behind because they have held up, and have a lifetime warranty.


Cold Steel also has some solid heat treating on their higher end knives. The low end are just OK, but knives like I mentioned earlier on the SRK and SRK-C have held up really well for me in daily use. I use it when I'm out in the forest and want a larger knife on my belt. I usually just carry a Mora knife when I'm fishing or out messing around. Those mora knives are the BEST bang for the buck for a good hard-use knife. They're effectively a disposable knife, but I still own my very first of probably 8 or 9 Mora's that I own. I've always been able to get them back to a good sharp edge.

Last edited by bombadillo; 12-29-2020 at 10:53 AM..
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  #23  
Old 02-10-2021, 6:54 AM
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High end knives, well most things.
Think of it like cars, you can get around in a pinto, or Ferrari. The Ferrari has much more care put into it, usually by highly trained human hands. That being said I'm a knife maker and never knew the amount of blood and sweat it takes to manipulate metal the way you want.
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Old 02-10-2021, 6:58 AM
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Well the learning process, it gets easier with practice.
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Old 02-10-2021, 7:23 AM
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The word “tactical” on the label is key. Without that, you got nothin.
You forgot it needs to be in caps to true tacti-cool
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Old 02-10-2021, 8:41 AM
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If you take a mediocre $50 knife and compare it to THE RIGHT $200 knife, the $200 knife is like Wolverine's claws compared to a letter opener.

I like SYKCO... so I am specifically picturing some modern Gerber or CRKT compared to a SYKCO Regulator.

If you compare it to a CS Drop Forged Survivalist or similar well designed and cheap as hell blade, the Survivalist is going to look OK compared to a Scrap Yard. Just IMHO.
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Old 02-10-2021, 8:51 AM
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I think more expensive knives can be well worth it with folders especially. You won't get that Swiss Watch, smooth action, zero-blade play in any direction, perfect lock-up, great wearing steel, etc... from a $20 Kershaw. You will get it from a ZT. All it takes is to hold a Thermite or similar and compare it to some model of ZT - Les George, Rexford, Sinkevich, or Hinderer design... and you won't wonder anymore where the extra money went.
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Old 02-10-2021, 10:23 PM
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i went pretty far down the rabbit hole with high end japanese kitchen knives, and the biggest thing i learned, is that there is a lot to learn about knives, so take your time and don't think you are going to buy the perfect knife right out of the gate (nor would you want to, because you'll want to keep adding to the collection anyway).

how a blade performs depends not only on the steel and the heat treat, but also the grind and profile, and all of those are really dependent on the intended use, as well as your personal cutting style. try slicing potatoes with an $800 sushi knife and you'll want to throw the thing out the window because it wont cut straight and wedges like a hatchet in a wet log.

i've only recently started exploring tactical knives and still learning, but so far talked myself into a few mid-grade pieces. my edc is a spyderco sliverax folder in s30v steel, and for the woods i just picked up an SOG pillar fde fixed blade in s35vn steel. they are a little softer than my kitchen knives, but much more chip resistant, and have a similar feel when sharpening, unlike some of the cheap 440 knives i used to have that were just awful on the stones.
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Old 02-11-2021, 7:18 AM
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crufflers crufflers is offline
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
I think I misunderstood your original post thinking you were asking for advice on how to get a great knife you can depend on that will be useful as an all around tool but serve as a weapon if necessary for not huge sums of money.

I think instead you're asking what we think you should get that is a little more gucci than the former category but not ridiculous.

Get on blade forums, go to the Redmeadow subforum. Talk to the guy that makes the knives, have him build you a bowie around 7 inches. Now you can say you have a custom!

Barring that, has anyone told you to get a Sebenza yet? Becuase it often seems like that's the minimum requirement to be a 'knife guy' on blade forums, everyone else being poseurs. They're built like tanks and could cut the earth in half, but most people just polish them and use their 'beater' knife so they don't get their Sebenza dirty.

Becker BK9s are well thought of, as is the ESEE Junglas if you want to keep up with the big knife theme. The Becker BK5 if you can find one is a nice trailing point with bonafides as a heavy duty knife. I wish I had picked on up as I'm not willing to pay for them now. And I have basically zero need for an 8 inch knife.

Copper and clad has a Buck 124 in 5160 steel for $180.00; you could be classy AND buy American. Though the 'real' knife people will tell you that the hollow grind is no good for tactical bushcrafting, and the shiny blade will give away your position as you take out sentries.

Everybody likes the Cold Steel Trailmaster.

Or just get a Russel and make sure everyone can see it.
I have a a lot of knives... do not have a Sebenza, do not like Sebenzas. Do not like Trail Masters. Do not know what a Red Meadow or Russel is. Love hollow grinds like the hollow ground parkerized SYKCO Regulators, Spyderco YojimboII, Yojumbo, Centofante. I bet most knife enthusiasts don't fall into your characterization, hahah.
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