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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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Sino Soviet SKS C&R Status
Hey guys, i need some clarification on a factory 26 Chinese sino Soviet sks. Would this be considered C&R and ok to purchase locally from an individual with my 03 and Coe? I searched on calguns but am reading conflicting reports on the status.
Has any one registered one successfully with their 03 ? Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk |
#2
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Changing my post based on this Why the Chinese SKS is not C&R. My ghost was sold by distributor as C&R, apparently a special import from the Albanian lot. Check this site Chinese SKS
Last edited by hifiguns; 03-15-2019 at 3:48 PM.. |
#4
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Post a photo of the serial number.
If you can't post photos, tell us everything stamped on the left side of the receiver. Any Chinese SKS that can be dated to 1968 or earlier will be eligible for C&R -- granted that the rifle is in original configuration. |
#6
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That would make the year of production 1957-- 100% eligible for C&R if it is still in original configuration. Doesn't have to be matching, just original configuration.
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#7
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MANY folks believe that the first two digits in the serial number rfelate to years of issue, but ATF absolutely refuses to agree! |
#8
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Can I please get a source for this. Just curious.
__________________
69Mach1 munkeeboi TURBOELKY antix2 WTSGDYBBR tujungatoes jmpgnr24K |
#9
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MANY folks believe that the first two digits in the serial number relate to years of issue, but ATF absolutely refuses to agree! |
#10
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Various sources: Beginning with the thousands and thousands of Chinese Type56's that came to the US via Albanian between 2012-2015.
Literally tens of thousands of Chinese type56's were allowed to enter the US as C&R guns because they were sufficiently proven to have cleared the 50year requirement. I bought about 17 of them-- ALL of them as C&R guns. (the real kicker here is that the dating info provided to the ATF at the time was incorrect by 1 year) Once the Albanian cache arrived, the true date research began in earnest. The result being this more accurate dating theory for the Chinese sks can be found here: http://chinesesks.weebly.com/dating-...inese-sks.html It can be applied to 99% of the standard configuration Type56's-- regardless of arsenal number. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-15-2019 at 4:59 PM.. |
#11
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Last edited by boris badinov; 03-15-2019 at 4:46 PM.. |
#12
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China doesn't need to release much of anything in order to interpret a date specific serialization formula:
arsenal stamp + Nth year of production + quantity Pretty darn simple, IYAM. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-15-2019 at 4:58 PM.. |
#13
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There was a batch a couple of years ago. Maybe last year. I think one source was J&G sales. My friend bought one with his C&R.
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69Mach1 munkeeboi TURBOELKY antix2 WTSGDYBBR tujungatoes jmpgnr24K |
#15
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These are absolutely C&R and really nice rifles aside from the junky Chinese stocks.
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#16
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I'll grant the jammo-matic review-- for the commercial mods only (ak mags variants, really) Absolutely unfounded for the standard configuration model though. 10-12million made. With a documented 50+ year military service history (70 years if you include irregular forces). Can't go wrong with that. ESPECIALLY in California. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-15-2019 at 7:30 PM.. |
#17
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I also had a very early Sino soviet "ghost" that came from Albania with a Tula dust cover. Those guns have chrome lined bores in pristine condition. Carried a lot, not shot very often. I'd have a hard time passing one up for under $300. One of the best milsurps ever made. I definitely would buy one over a 91/30, anyday. Refurbed Mosins are going for almost the same price now. Rediculous. At least I dont have to worry bout the handguard slipping off everytime I shoot it like you do with a Mosin. And finding cheap noncorrosive ammo is really easy.
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CRPA and NRA member. Don't argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I don't respond to posts/posters that aren't worth responding to. Last edited by Tere_Hanges; 03-19-2019 at 7:21 PM.. |
#18
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Boris, Boris, Boris . . .
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I *AGREE* that the sino-soviet SKS carbines should qualify as Curios & Relics because of their age. . . but UNTIL the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATFE) rules that they ARE, they ARE NOT, no matter WHAT you think or believe! ATF simply DOES NOT know when these were made, because China will not tell them. UNTIL you can publish an ATFE LETTER that confirms your theories, they are only theories. PLEASE ask the ATF for a letter confirming your serial-number sequence, otherwise STOP TELLING FOLKS TO BREAK FEDERAL LAWS! By the way, calling ATF will do absolutely no good, as a verbal opinion isn't worth the paper it is (not) written on. Last edited by empirearms; 03-19-2019 at 5:56 PM.. |
#19
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For what its worth, I bought 2 SKS rifles both are Chinese "factory 26" from J&G in 2013 with my C&R without any issues.
When I ordered the guns they told me they were approved as C&R status from ATF. I have no reason to doubt them. But, unless the buyer/seller knows they came from the ones recently imported I would only do a standard FFL transfer. Brett
__________________
Certified Polygraph Examiner. I provide services for Criminal and Civil Litigation, Private Businesses, Law Enforcement/Fire Pre-Employment screening, Fidelity Concerns, and other types of Family Disputes. http://ToThePointPolygraph.com |
#20
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#21
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If you are in the business of selling firearms, I highly suggest you reacquaint yourself with the BATF guidelines on how C&R works. |
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#23
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Before you continue bashing a well known C&R dealer with decades of knowledge and experience dealing with C&R firearms, let me ask you. Do you have documentation or personal knowledge of the ATF accepting the Chinese serial numbers for proof of the manufacturing year?
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
#24
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Steve Kehaya is a member on gunboards-- (SteveK). He worked for one of the importers of the previous Albanian caches. He physically went to Albania and hand selected thousands of guns for the US market. They were selected by serial dating formula that was submitted to the BATF at the time. Also, at that time, the dating info and research was largely conjecture, and later proven to be off by one year and has also been proven to apply to all arsenals. From his own first hand experience, the C&R eleigible guns were chosen by serial dating method alone. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-26-2019 at 2:42 PM.. |
#25
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Also, the BATF isn't in the business of listing every firearm that gains C&R status by virtue of age alone.
All that is required by the BATF is some means of substantiating the age of a given firearm or type of firearm. Given that the dating info provided in 2011 was based on little to no corroborated evidence and has since been proven inaccurate, it would seem that the BATF's burden of proof isn't very strict. [see the BATF C&R link I provided above] I had no idea that there were still folks out there, let alone actual firearms dealers, who missed every inch of the last 8 years worth of developments and the resulting schism in the SKS collecting community. There are, quite literally, thousands of threads in the online collecting forums about this. There is ZERO doubt that the Chinese guns were granted C&R status by virtue of their age as determined by the serial dating forumla. The only debates that still exists are: 1) Which of the two dating methods is correct. One is an actual theory, the other simply a hypothesis. (answer: the theory). AND 2) Whether the dating methods can be applied to arsenals other than state factory /26\. (answer: yes) Last edited by boris badinov; 03-19-2019 at 8:00 PM.. |
#26
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The Albanian guns were accepted as C&R by ATF because there was documentation showing that they had been in Albania's possession for over 50 years, not because of any serial number interpitation.
__________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
#27
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You can ask Steve Kehaya yourself. He physically went to Albania in 2011 and hand selected thousands of rifles by virtue of age indicated by the serial numbers on the guns. He's an active member on gunboards.com under the screen name SteveK. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-26-2019 at 2:42 PM.. |
#28
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Boris,
SHOW ME an ATF letter that states ANY Chinese SKS carbines (aside from the ones imported along with an original invoice showing they existed before 1969) and I will believe what you say, but until then please SHUT UP! You are actually doing more HARM than GOOD! I REALLY WANT them to be labeled C&R eligible so I can sell them unhindered to the C&R licensed individuals in 48 of our states (not including California & New Jersey, so far)! |
#29
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"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age." They don't publish anything on firearms that are C&R by virtue of age. The importers are simply required to provide an explanation of the dating method they are using. Again, ask Steve Kehaya. He worked for Century Arms. In 2011 he went to Albania and personally hand selected thousands of rifles for US import. They were 100% selected by virtue of age determined by serial number. This is 100% fact. It is not disputed, ever. They were selected by date according to serial dating formula that the Chinese used for many of their military arms. This is very entertaining. I would like to know where you heard about this dated invoice BS. Do you have a source in China, Albania or with one of the importers. In eight years no such invoice has ever surfaced in discussion, nor have I ever heard it referenced (until this thread, that is). Last edited by boris badinov; 03-26-2019 at 2:42 PM.. |
#30
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Boris,
Since Chinese SKS carbines DO NOT bear a date of manufacture on them, and since China will not supply the serial number information that corraborates your "theory" on serial numbers, ATF DOES NOT consider ANY Chinese SKS to be C&R unless there is PROOF that they were in existance before 1969. Theories ARE NOT proof! I held an importers license for many years, so I am NOT GUESSING (as you obviously are). My livelihood is at stake . . . I do this for a living, not as a casual hobby! I just do not want ANY of my customers NAILED for violating any regulations based on erroneous info (such as you continue to provide) on this or any other forum or website. Please be responsible, that is all I ask. Any PROOF of manufacturing data would be welcomed by ATF, and they would THEN likely recind their opinion, but AS OF NOW, with very few exceptions, Chinese SKS carbines ARE NOT qualified as C&R by ATF. PROVE ME WRONG! |
#31
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Let me guess: You heard it from a guy who knows a guy who heard it from another guy? |
#32
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Dude, I can't make up for your lack of intellectual prowess, or curiosity.
ASK Steve Kehaya. He worked for Century Arms. He went to Albania in 2011. He hand selected thousands of rifle for import. The means of selection was the age of each rifle as determined by the serial number formula. He is a member on gunboards.com. (SteveK). This has been discussed voluminously on that forum and many others If you don't want to ask him, then start a thread over there and see how quickly you get checked with your hearsay hypothesis of Albanian receipts and bills of laden. I promise not to post in the thread if you start one. Literally tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Chinese guns in the US (some pre ban guns and bringbacks, too) are now eligible for C&R status by virtue of the serial dating formula. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-26-2019 at 2:43 PM.. |
#33
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I have given you the name of someone from Century Arms that you can ask.
Or you can start a thread on gunboards.com or over at sks-files.com Any reason why you can't do that? It seems to me that asking one of the Century Arms employees who went to Albania to select the rifles for C&R import would be the best person to ask. It literally doesn't get any straighter from the horse's mouth than that. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-19-2019 at 10:24 PM.. |
#34
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#35
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Link from way back machine stating they were C&R eligible. https://web.archive.org/web/20150208...p/sksk0045.htm
From RTI in 2015 Last edited by 19K; 03-20-2019 at 7:08 AM.. |
#36
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@empirearms-- HERE IS YOUR PROOF. Straight from the fingertips of Steve Kehaya himself. He personally hand selected the Albanian C&R guns according to a serial dating formula.
Here is a link to a thread on gunboards where member, SteveK 'splains it: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...n-country-soon Of particular interest are Steve Kehaya's replies: #14: "There are more Chinese SKS carbines in Albania. Most are waiting for their 50th birthday to be importable. I'm not sure what the current administration there thinks of exporting arms. I do know that NATO and other agencies would rather have them destroyed (seen that many times around the world). As to more Albanian built guns, I bought all the guns at the factory years ago. There weren't any left in the main warehouse or the caves around the capitol . There may be some in the outer bases but I'm not sure. SteveK " #18: "Boris, most were Factory 26 which is a good thing, in this case, since Import Branch uses the year of manufacture based on the formula in our book "The SKS Carbine". Nobody has come up with a listing of manufacture dates for any other factory (that I'm aware of) so I doubt they will come in for a long while. The Government is very strict on this issue. I had to inspect and sign off on the carbines brought in by Century twice. SteveK " #20 "As you stated, the burden of proof is with the importer. He (they) would submit their evidence and see if BATF Technical Branch agrees. Don't kid yourself.....anything that the government handles takes mucho effort!! SteveK " The bold faced text shows without a doubt 1: That the importers provided their own dating proof to the BATF. (The BATF is under no obligation to publish any of it.) 2: The dating formula used was published decades ago in the book that Kehoe and co-author Joe Poyer first put out in almost three decades ago. Oddly enough, it was largely because of the Sino-Albanian imports that Steve Kehoe played a vital role in acquiring, that aided further research into the Chinese serial dating formula. Research which has since demonstrated that Kehoe and Poyer's longheld dating hypothesis was incorrect in two significant ways. 1: The "56+Millions place holder" method was off by one year. 2: The dating method can absolutely be applied to 99% of the Chinese guns and not just the guns from arsenal /26\. Every year a new serial range turns 50. All of the 1968 guns became eligible on january 1st of this year. And all of the 1969 guns will be eligible on January 1st, 2020. All that really matters with these most recent guns is which serial dating formula are they using? The incorrect, hypothesis from 2011? Or the research verified theory that was published in great detail post 2013? bee-tee-dubs: here's a link to the research verified theory. It's hasn't been updated in several years. But in the intervening years evidentiary basis, has only grown more solid: http://chinesesks.weebly.com/dating-...inese-sks.html When the BATF signed off on Kehoe's dating formula they gave tacit approval for the the C&R eligibility with each subsequent year as described in the formula. Last edited by boris badinov; 03-26-2019 at 2:44 PM.. |
#39
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#40
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OBVIOUSLY you have nothing better to do than to pursue this insanity.
I am too busy LEGALLY buying and selling military firearms to happy customers than to waste any more of my precious time on this issue. YOU have ZERO evidence to support your theory other than "I heard it from a guy". By the way, I post in this forum under my real name, and the photo of me is what I look like most of the time. I do not utilize the guise of a cartoon character, nor do I attack the credibility of someone who is extremely prominent in this hobby and whom you have obviously never met and have ZERO respect for. I do not post in this (or any other) forum UNLESS I feel that I am being HELPFUL, and (as an officer and a gentleman) I ALWAYS tell the truth. It is not my aim to get into "pissing contests" with ANONYMOUS folks who have nothing better to do. Stick a fork in me, I'm done. . . Last edited by empirearms; 03-21-2019 at 6:08 AM.. |
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