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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2020, 7:20 AM
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Default Would you carry this? Glock 19, minor mods.

Thanks for the info

Last edited by rock3ralex; 07-12-2020 at 6:55 AM..
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Old 07-11-2020, 7:25 AM
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Riverside County doesn't allow trigger mods...otherwise yes I would.

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Old 07-11-2020, 7:35 AM
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If I understand you correctly, you qualified with this glock, and it is on your CCW.
Now, 1) you want to modify the same glock, and continue to carry it?
Or 2) do you want to add a different glock onto your CCW, that has those modifications?
If #1 above, I would recommend asking your CCW office, but I am doubtful they'd allow it.
If #2 above, submitting paperwork and then re-qualifying for it should be no problem. But I'm sure you'd still need to run it by your IA.

Either way, sweet Glock there. I see why you want to do it, I have polymer pistols and steel ones, and the polymer wiggle does suck. More accurate shooting means safer CCW, so that makes sense to me...
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Old 07-11-2020, 9:08 AM
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Default Would you carry this? Glock 19, minor mods.

Whether IA allows or not I would think of zealous DA you will be facing if you had to make a SD shooting.

There’s also a potential civil liability suit afterwards so be prepared to defend the modified gun.
Hope you have a few millions laying around.

Here a video discussion about modifications from Active Self Protection talking to Massad Ayoob.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EeLgzT-9N54

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Old 07-11-2020, 5:58 PM
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Trigger modifications on a carry gun are a terrible idea!
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Old 07-11-2020, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post
Whether IA allows or not I would think of zealous DA you will be facing if you had to make a SD shooting.

There’s also a potential civil liability suit afterwards so be prepared to defend the modified gun.
Hope you have a few millions laying around.

Here a video discussion about modifications from Active Self Protection talking to Massad Ayoob.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EeLgzT-9N54

Just my $.02
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I appreciate the video a lot actually! I kept seeing Massad's experience referenced in this forum and this video explains it perfectly.

I guess what I'm look for is an argument that fit's my setup that goes against Massad's theory. Massad says it's easy to justify stippling and aftermarket sights since it makes the shooter more competent during a stressful scenario. I think my trigger is ok since factory duty weight of 5-6lb still applies and it's not a target race trigger. It's marketed as duty. All parts are factory except the trigger face are glock OEM.

I'll carry with a stock trigger for the time being until I hear back from my instructor who has sat in on cases before.

Appreciate the .02. I know triggers are a touchy subject and worth discussing

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Old 07-11-2020, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rock3ralex View Post
Would you carry this or have a problem carrying this firearm in this Config 2?
I would not carry the gun in either configuration. Outside of improving the trigger and putting on better sights, I would not make any changes to a Glock to which I am trusting my life. Non-Glock slide, non-Glock trigger, blinged out barrel, physical modifications to an extensive portion of the frame surface area...yeah, that's going to be a hard no.
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Old 07-11-2020, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
I would not carry the gun in either configuration. Outside of improving the trigger and putting on better sights, I would not make any changes to a Glock that to which I am trusting my life. Non-Glock slide, non-Glock trigger, blinged out barrel, physical modifications to an extensive portion of the frame surface area...yeah, that's going to be a hard no.
And can you justify why it's a bad idea? OC IA is allowing those modifications now. Just because it's been one way for so long doesn't mean the times don't change.

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Old 07-11-2020, 9:37 PM
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And can you justify why it's a bad idea? OC IA is allowing those modifications now. Just because it's been one way for so long doesn't mean the times don't change.
Personal experience. The only time Glocks break is when they are loaded down with non-Glock stuff.
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Old 07-11-2020, 9:40 PM
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I carry Glocks with a 4.5 connector and Tru-Glo sights op. I don't buy into the DA is going to charge you because you have mods" stuff, but I also don't think I can make a more reliable pistol than Glock can.

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Old 07-12-2020, 4:16 AM
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Most of the mods did nothing to add to the lethality of the gun and may well have compromised the rock solid reliability of the Glock.
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Old 07-12-2020, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rock3ralex View Post
Can you explain why with an answer other than just because someone else said so?

I watched Massad's video and the key words "hair trigger around 2.5lbs for target pistols" and a minimum duty weight of 4lbs comes up as standard.

The trigger is not a hair trigger. Pretravel is ever so slightly reduced, weight is between 5-6lbs measured. All other parts are glock factory (springs, safety, connector). Factory safeties still in place.

Why would Cajun Gunworks sell a defensive carry package that modifies the trigger to a duty weight of ~4lbs SA, 6-7lbs DA if carrying a modified trigger is such a bad idea?
Any modifications to the trigger could be helpful to the prosecution if you were ever to use the gun in a self-defense shooting. A zealous prosecutor could use this as "proof" of your desire to make it easier to shoot someone. I am not saying that I agree with it, however, that is what could be claimed. A modified trigger is fine for a competition or range gun. Stock is best for a carry gun!
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Old 07-12-2020, 5:39 AM
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When there is a lawsuit they also name the gun manufacturer. Modified gun, they wash their hands, your on you own.

I personally keep my Glocks bone stock.
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Old 07-12-2020, 7:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
I don't buy into the DA is going to charge you because you have mods" stuff, but I also don't think I can make a more reliable pistol than Glock can.
Agree, a good self-defense shooting is a good self-defense shooting.

However, after the shooting, the first thing will happen is they (LE) will take your gun.
IMHO, a modified gun gives them more things to scrutinize.

Prior to acquiring CCW, I spoke an attorney about the very subject. He advised against any modifications with exception of night sights. He said don’t be the test case and to be as low key as possible.
I also have a couple of acquaintances that are LEO, they also don’t have any mods on their duty or off duty guns.

Now if a case is brought up, a lawyer retention fee is $10k-15k initially. This is just the beginning, the whole trial will likely cost $100k-150k if not more.

Also, after one beats the criminal case, it is likely that the perp’s family will bring a civil case.
In this case the fancy legal term “preponderance of evidence” is easier to prove for liability from the modded gun according to the attorney I consulted with; he also brought up OJ Simpson/Ron Goldman case as an example.

OP, besides the instructor, have you asked the IA about the mods and you’re in San Diego correct? If don’t mind, where did you take your training class?

My initial training was with Bill Dessy, Glock store and my renewal with Kyle Dau at DGM Morena; I don’t recall anyone asking them about modifications of carry gun.


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Old 07-12-2020, 8:49 AM
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^^^ Yep, I just don't do it. I put the minus connector in there so my Glocks shoot a little less like a BBQ lighter, but it's still within the stock trigger pull weight range and in fact they both break at about 5 lbs. But there's no way to look at the gun and see or detect any mods other than the sights. I just don't see the point in the other stuff, but to be clear I think you should be able to carry whatever the hell you want. But nobody in a courthouse dealing with a SD shooting is going to ask my opinion so...

As far as the legal fees we should all have CCW insurance. I like CCW safe but anything is way better than nothing.
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Old 07-12-2020, 9:22 AM
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Personally I think both of those arguments are extremely stupid. I will do whatever I need to my firearm to allow me to better hit what I am aiming at. Period. Even in today's crazy world, I can't imagine a combination of facts that would lead to a DA deciding that a trigger change makes an otherwise legal shoot, illegal. As to a civil suit, they may sue you no matter what your gun is like. Yep they'll say a trigger mod must mean you are a crazy killer. The very fact that you are carrying in the first place also proves that. If you fly an American flag in front of your house they'll also say that proves you are racist too. If you practice shooting/compete that proves you like to practice killing people. If you don't practice that proves you are are callous and irresponsible. So that argument to me is not relevant.
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Old 07-13-2020, 5:53 AM
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Personally I think both of those arguments are extremely stupid. I will do whatever I need to my firearm to allow me to better hit what I am aiming at. Period. Even in today's crazy world, I can't imagine a combination of facts that would lead to a DA deciding that a trigger change makes an otherwise legal shoot, illegal. As to a civil suit, they may sue you no matter what your gun is like. Yep they'll say a trigger mod must mean you are a crazy killer. The very fact that you are carrying in the first place also proves that. If you fly an American flag in front of your house they'll also say that proves you are racist too. If you practice shooting/compete that proves you like to practice killing people. If you don't practice that proves you are are callous and irresponsible. So that argument to me is not relevant.
With all due respect, these arguments come from those who more or less understand how the criminal system works, especially in anti-gun jurisdictions. I agree, that those mods will not make you a more lethal and/or reckless shooter. However, there is a good chance that people like me will not be on your jury. And a skillful prosecutor can spin arguments in many ways you might not be even thought were possible. It doesn't matter what the common sense -- it only matters what the jury thinks it is.

For those, who don't want to make the prosecution case easier than it is, stick with the stock version as much as possible, at least with your CCW carry guns. If you own a fine firearm as Glock installing night sights/flashlight should probably be the only mod you'd make. Modifying a trigger, changing slides, etc. will not make you a better shooter. What will is training, lots of it. With special emphasis on conflict de-escalation techniques. Spend you money there instead.
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Old 07-13-2020, 6:04 AM
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I modified my Glock 19 with an Apex trigger kit. I shoot pretty regularly and keep the targets to show how accurate I can be with the modifications.

You're screwed in a shooting in Commiefornia no matter what. I'm going to make sure I hit accurately first and foremost.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:39 PM
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You never want to pull the trigger on another human being. Even if justified, it will get you a trip in handcuffs to the jail; you'll lose that gun, you might be prosecuted and/or sued, which can cost you every penny you own and then some.
For that reason, you do not want to choose a gun that could be portrayed as an "overkill" weapon, you don't want to use ammo that is over the top, and you don't want to modify your gun either. If you think that's all nonsense, go ahead and do what you think is best for you.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post

Prior to acquiring CCW, I spoke an attorney about the very subject.
Attorneys are in the business of advising people NOT to do things. Just saying. mine told me CCW was way too risky and said absolutely NEVER carry a Glock. I asked him what he was basing that on and he said "Personal opinion, but for a fee he could have his girl research it for me.
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Old 07-13-2020, 1:17 PM
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Why does everyone think that some zealous prosecutor is going to be able to bring anything up in court? There has to be a crime first. If they are able to charge someone with something, you've got bigger problems than a modification.

As far as Ayoob's theory he's been preaching that for the better part of 40 years now, and I've never seen anyone find a case where they can say it was a significant factor in the trial. Hell he's been asked about it more than once and can never cite a case either.
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Old 07-13-2020, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Attorneys are in the business of advising people NOT to do things. Just saying. mine told me CCW was way too risky and said absolutely NEVER carry a Glock. I asked him what he was basing that on and he said "Personal opinion, but for a fee he could have his girl research it for me.
Sounds like BS.

Did you take his advice?
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Old 07-13-2020, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by demisx View Post
With all due respect, these arguments come from those who more or less understand how the criminal system works, especially in anti-gun jurisdictions. I agree, that those mods will not make you a more lethal and/or reckless shooter. However, there is a good chance that people like me will not be on your jury. And a skillful prosecutor can spin arguments in many ways you might not be even thought were possible. It doesn't matter what the common sense -- it only matters what the jury thinks it is.

For those, who don't want to make the prosecution case easier than it is, stick with the stock version as much as possible, at least with your CCW carry guns. If you own a fine firearm as Glock installing night sights/flashlight should probably be the only mod you'd make. Modifying a trigger, changing slides, etc. will not make you a better shooter. What will is training, lots of it. With special emphasis on conflict de-escalation techniques. Spend you money there instead.
That's the most level headed response of the bunch so thank you.

As for everything else, I have CCW insurance and train regularly. Taking a defensive shooting class next month and taking a carbine/pistol class in November. I train more than most gun owners.

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Old 07-13-2020, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
You never want to pull the trigger on another human being. Even if justified, it will get you a trip in handcuffs to the jail; you'll lose that gun, you might be prosecuted and/or sued, which can cost you every penny you own and then some.
For that reason, you do not want to choose a gun that could be portrayed as an "overkill" weapon, you don't want to use ammo that is over the top, and you don't want to modify your gun either. If you think that's all nonsense, go ahead and do what you think is best for you.
^^^This is my thinking also.

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Attorneys are in the business of advising people NOT to do things.
True but my attorney will be defending me, God forbids if I have to shoot the perp, I like to follow his advice either I agree with or not.

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Why does everyone think that some zealous prosecutor is going to be able to bring anything up in court? There has to be a crime first. If they are able to charge someone with something, you've got bigger problems than a modification.
IMHO, because I live in Commiefornia, the current political climate, the DA seeking another office term and wanting a tough image for the crazy Lefts, the perp is good mama's boy, etc...

Just take a look at Atlanta Police Officer involved in Brooks' shooting, to me, that was a justifiable shoot. Was there a crime committed?
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Old 07-13-2020, 6:37 PM
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Just take a look at Atlanta Police Officer involved in Brooks' shooting, to me, that was a justifiable shoot. Was there a crime committed?
Well yeah IMO that was a justifiable shooting for LEO, but if you chase the bad guy and shoot him in the back you'll have some real legal trouble on your hands. Using that as an example is not even in the same ballpark, you have no need to chase and apprehend anyone.
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Old 07-13-2020, 7:28 PM
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Well yeah IMO that was a justifiable shooting for LEO, but if you chase the bad guy and shoot him in the back you'll have some real legal trouble on your hands. Using that as an example is not even in the same ballpark, you have no need to chase and apprehend anyone.

Perhaps you misunderstood my example; I was trying to explain to P5 about why a zealous DA would bring charges against good shooting.

If they’re willing to charge LEO for a good shooting, they will bring charges against ordinary citizens.
You said in your reply yourself that it’s justified in Brooks case.

The example is not for me, I have no business in chasing the perp since I am not LEO.


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Old 07-13-2020, 7:55 PM
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The reality is that an attorney will ALWAYS spin something. You could use a pure stock gun and some attorney COULD ask questions like:

Do some people modify their firearms for accuracy with special triggers, etc?

Why didn't you do that? Do you not want to be accurate?

Is that why you shot my client standing behind the person assaulting you?

Etc, etc.


I am not saying this scenario is likely of course. Short of putting full on race triggers in your gun, or running a slide plate with a punisher logo or putting "You're ****ed" on the slide you are unlikely to have a problem. If it is a reasonable self defense shooting and they are focusing on this minutiae then they don't have much else. If they have much else, well...you're probably ****ed no matter what you did to your gun.

All that said my guns are basically stock. When I worked construction I didn't bling out my hammer either.
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Old 07-13-2020, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post

Just take a look at Atlanta Police Officer involved in Brooks' shooting, to me, that was a justifiable shoot. Was there a crime committed?
And that charge is 100% politically motivated. You're probably not going to see the same type of motivation used against Mr Average Citizen, defending himself in a good shoot, there are very few votes to garner from that. It was a loss and he knew it going in. Even with that charge when it all falls apart he can stand up and say he tried to do something for the movement. Which will get him votes.
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Old 07-13-2020, 8:26 PM
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Not reading the comments above or your original question, I would say do not carry anything modified. Visual, or otherwise. If you ever pull the trigger out in public, you will be going through a gauntlet of inquiry. Explaining why your gun is modified is not one you need to be asked because depending on how motivated the prosecutor is to F you, it’s already going to be a tough battle.

Stay safe out there buddy!
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:21 PM
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I love customized guns as much as anyone else but since this is Kaliforniastan, I kept my CCW weapons mostly stock. I only changed the factory sights to night sights for all 3. My CCW revolver is a Ruger LCR and it got one additional change. Swapped the stock grips for the factory boot grip for better concealment. That's it.
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Old 08-09-2020, 1:30 PM
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With the exceptions of the sights I never did anything to my duty gun or my off duty gun that wasn’t a factory Item. If you are in a shooting they will take your gun and totally take it apart for inspection to find anything from a badly maintained gun that could be considered a safety issue to modifications for the same reason. You shoot someone you’re *** will be under a microscope why give them more reason to look closer?
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  #32  
Old 08-09-2020, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post
Perhaps you misunderstood my example; I was trying to explain to P5 about why a zealous DA would bring charges against good shooting.

If they’re willing to charge LEO for a good shooting, they will bring charges against ordinary citizens.
You said in your reply yourself that it’s justified in Brooks case.

The example is not for me, I have no business in chasing the perp since I am not LEO.
Sorry, I missed this response before LoadedM333. We are in agreement.
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Old 08-15-2020, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
You never want to pull the trigger on another human being. Even if justified, it will get you a trip in handcuffs to the jail; you'll lose that gun, you might be prosecuted and/or sued, which can cost you every penny you own and then some.
For that reason, you do not want to choose a gun that could be portrayed as an "overkill" weapon, you don't want to use ammo that is over the top, and you don't want to modify your gun either. If you think that's all nonsense, go ahead and do what you think is best for you.
In YOUR county maybe. We had a justified shooting in Shasta County last year and the only thing they took was the shooters statement.
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Old 08-15-2020, 2:44 PM
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Why does everyone think that some zealous prosecutor is going to be able to bring anything up in court? There has to be a crime first. If they are able to charge someone with something, you've got bigger problems than a modification.

As far as Ayoob's theory he's been preaching that for the better part of 40 years now, and I've never seen anyone find a case where they can say it was a significant factor in the trial. Hell he's been asked about it more than once and can never cite a case either.
Well, there is a crime -- you shot somebody. That's against the law. Now if you can prove it was done in self-defense, then you won't go to jail.

I also disagree with Ayoob about trigger mods. AFAIK, there is no case on record where a trigger mod got somebody convicted where they otherwise would have gotten off.

If you're stupid enough to engrave "Kill All Humans" on your gun or satanic images or something ridiculous then yes, those types of modifications will probably help convict you, but I've never heard of such mods, and let's assume nobody on CalGuns is that stupid, and talk about normal mods.

As for reducing the reliability, that's crap. Sure, it's possible if you are some untrained Joe and you start monkeying around with your gun, or if you're using some sketchy part made in China -- absolutely, you could easily reduce the reliability of the gun. But if you're sending your carry gun out to be worked on by a professional gunsmith (which your lawyer will make sure the jury knows) and that pro is using high quality parts made by reputable companies, you're increasing the reliability and safety of that part of the gun.

Most guns are made to be as cheap as possible. That means they use the least expensive parts they can get which still perform to a certain standard. Putting in a replacement part that is built to a far higher standard from much higher quality materials increases the reliability of the gun, not the other way around.

FWIW, I carry a significantly modded gun. A whole lot more than just a trigger job. I have discussed the mods with my lawyer, and his opinion was that by themselves, they created no additional concerns, excepting only this: if I do use it in self-defense, I probably won't get it back for a long time, and there are cases where such evidence is lost in system, so I risk losing a larger investment than if I had left the gun in stock configuration.
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Old 08-15-2020, 5:50 PM
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I have five Glocks and a Shield on my permit. All but one are just as they left the factory, the G19 has night sights - but they are similar to the factory Glock night sights. If I have to shoot someone, that eliminates any distractions at either trial.
The less I have to explain, the better. Then we can get to the real issue - why I shot the perpetrator (who is NOT a victim!) to make them stop their violent actions. I'd rather save my time, energy, and sanity for that confrontation - so I can show that a reasonable person, knowing what I knew at the time, would do exactly the same thing.
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Old 08-16-2020, 9:21 AM
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No mods except night sites on my G19

Well I removed some trigger guard plastic so My glock finger doesn't hurt.

No need to screw around, shoot/train more with glock perfection.

Your trigger and slide work is not going to help you in defensive shoot.

Do cops modify their slides and triggers? No
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Old 08-20-2020, 9:21 AM
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“A good shoot is a good shoot.”

Correct, but the cops will investigate and the DA will decide. While some folks have indicated that you have to prove it was self defense, that only arises at the trial. LEA and DA are going to decide based on the facts, not based on what you claim. In 2013, a Mendocino county ADA was in Sacramento and shot a guy during a fight. The Sacramento DA brought charges of carrying a loaded and a concealed weapon. In his statement,
Quote:
Chief Deputy District Attorney Steve Grippi said Friday the shooting appeared to be in self-defense.

“We felt there was sufficient evidence we couldn’t overcome self-defense,” Grippi said in an interview.
So, the investigation focused on being able to overcome a claim of self defense. But, they didn’t declare or find that it was a “good shoot”; they just couldn’t prove it was a “bad” shoot.
//////
On Ayoob and his examples....

When you claim self defense, you drop all other avenues of defense including mistake, error or equipment malfunction. You can’t later claim that some other guy did it.

One of Ayoob’s examples of using a modified trigger on a self defense weapon is Maglioto from the mid-80’s. But, if you read the case, Maglioto did a number of stupid things, eventually drawing and cocking a revolver with a light, single stage trigger, on an individual. Most important, the trigger was stock, and Maglioto didn’t intend to shoot.
Quote:
Defendant's own witnesses testified that once the Colt .38 was cocked, even the slightest movement over a distance as short as .012 inch would cause the gun to fire.

He had practiced at least half a dozen times on the firing range with the same Colt .38, usually with the weapon cocked. Thus, defendant must have been aware that when he cocked and aimed the gun, there was a grave risk of the gun discharging with the slightest pressure exerted on its hair trigger.

Magliato did not dispute that he drew his weapon and cocked it. However, he contended that his weapon could fire under the slightest pressure and that immediately prior to the firing of the weapon, a car passed close to Giani, brushing him back. This incident so unnerved Magliato that he accidentally exerted pressure on the trigger sufficient to discharge the weapon.

Maglioto also claimed to have panicked and stated that he did not recall pulling the trigger.
So much for “self defense”. In later years, Ayoob asserted that, had Maglioto not cocked the gun and had fired double action, he would have gotten off.

So much for the example.
////////
The article cited also brings out two other issues:

1.
Quote:
The Magliato trial is informative in that it addressed the question of what constitutes the behavior of a “reasonable person.” In Magliato’s case this worked against him in that the court found that a reasonable person, knowing what Magliato knew at the time of the encounter (i.e. cocking a revolver and placing your finger on the trigger creates substantial and unjustifiable risk of firing it unintentionally) would not have cocked the revolver and pointed it a Giani with no justification to immediately fire.
2.
Quote:
Documenting your training can be a double-edged sword. In this incident, the fact of Magliato’s training worked against him because it supported the prosecution’s assertion that he knowingly was reckless and negligent. It could have worked in his favor had Magliato properly presented his pistol and held his fire until/if Giani pressed home his attack against him.
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  #38  
Old 08-20-2020, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BrokerB View Post

No need to screw around, shoot/train more with glock perfection.
Ya LOL, that G44 sure was perfection LMAO
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  #39  
Old 08-20-2020, 9:57 PM
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Is the G44 a .22? What limp wristed tight pants skull full of mush buys that thing?
Only good .22s are K22 and Mk1 or woodsman : )

Btw incase it flew right over your head glock perfection is a joke. I do trust my life and my family's to a g19 g4 that I carry daily with only modifications being truglo sites and removed some plastic on trigger guard. Otherwise its 16 rounds of GBI or death.
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:49 PM
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It comes down to several points:

1) You must do what your carry permit issuing agency demands regarding gun modifications.

2) You must be able to justify the modification in an articulable way.

You must be able to clearly explain your reasoning. The difference between competition and carry triggers is well known in today’s gun industry. There is no reason for anyone to carry a gun with a “hair trigger” and it is easily avoidable.

In other words, you will be investigated for murder after claiming self defense. Investigators will look at the gun for function with an eye toward a negligent discharge at the time of the shooting. Their focus will be upon your actions at the time. If they complain about the trigger, it means their case is going to be weak because they are focusing upon the gun, not your actions. It will also mean some lawyer time to defend against, but your testimony, along with proper juror education, can side step the issue. Remember, they can complain about the gun for any reason, even if you did nothing to it!

3) Your legal team must educate the jury WITH WHAT YOU KNEW AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING ABOUT FIREARMS AND LAW. Anything you knew at the time can be submitted into evidence. This is why I attended MAG-20 and have insurance from the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Both the class and ACLDN include many videos. In the class notes, we were directed to put the title, and date and time we watched it. This video may now be shown to the jury. Any book you have read may be entered into evidence too.

Therefore, what you need to do is prepare your materials in advance and add to them as you update your “gun” education. Create a box, label it, and put the DVD’s, relevant books, notebooks, etc into it. At the end of defense testimony, the goal is that 12 jurors chosen specifically for their ignorance on guns, self-defense and law will go into the jury room as educated peers knowledgeable about these topics.

Last edited by tomrkba; 08-20-2020 at 11:54 PM..
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